Hi Everyone,

So the long weekend is over and GFFJ, Julian H and Geoff P have gone home. We did a lot of critical listening, had different views and different tastes but there are some conclusions that I can draw to get this ball rolling. The others will add their own detail as they recover from their various journeys.

First of all I want to thank Dr Julian H for being such an excellent LP12 fettler and general turntable/cartridge setter up. His knowledge of the beast and care in getting things just is extreemly impressive. I must also thank Geoff P for bringing his K and K phono pre-amp to demonstrate exactly what a valve preamp can do. The K and K was and will murder a Urika even though you can change cartridge loading on the fly. The K and K replaced my Supercapped Superline for most of the weekend and provided a basis for more experiments than I can remember. George "the Ears" FFJ provided a balanced critique of all of the changes based on classical reproduction and did the manufacturing of the ARO arm boards for the Raven. Julian provided the "Rock" critique and Geoff and I were happy in both camps and we also widened the scope of music.

So results??

I can give my view and add my experience of what we did earlier in the year so here is a start.

LP12/Keel/Ekos SE/Akiva/Lingo 2. Lots of balls very good on Rock/Pop but lacks some detail and is coloured on classical.

VPI/XV1-s and Rua generally laid back but for me, a fairly good all rounder. I am waiting for a heavy counterweight which might raise the game and give it more balls. the bias adjuster also needs to be assessed and so this is "in progress" still.

Raven 1 plus Ekos SE and XV1-s. this was not perfectly set up but raised more than one smile. This is a must do again. The Ekos SE certainly goes with this deck and gives detail and it is only the space in the headshell for the XV that held it back!!

Raven 1 plus Aro and XV1-s. IMO the best by far on jazz and classical, GFFJ was in ecstasy. Rock was not perfect and I heared some inconsistencies but this is probably down to a problem that became apparent latter with the control unit. TW Acustik were excellent in responding to the cry for help. The control unit apparently is a very old one but a new one is coming down the autobahn as I write this. I will give this a long session at the weekend.

LP12/Aro/TKRua. Good performer but not a star in this company, maybe it needs a Keel and a Radikal but that amount would buy a brand new Raven 1.

So enough for now. I will give the others some time to think about things and they will no doubt fill in the gaps and give their conclusions.

Best regards

FF

Frank

I had a feeling this thread was soon to appear! First question if I may - did you swap arms on the lp12 to let the aro have a go with the xv1-s?

Thanks for kicking off which may become a lengthy exchange of views!

Peter

quote:

Originally posted by northpole:
Frank

I had a feeling this thread was soon to appear! First question if I may - did you swap arms on the lp12 to let the aro have a go with the xv1-s?

Thanks for kicking off which may become a lengthy exchange of views!

Peter

Its a Keeled SE LP12.
He does have a Aro lp12 without Keel though.
Frank,
Looking forward to Julians pics.

Hi Peter,

I previously had the XV1-s in the Aro with the LP12. Yes, it is very nice but given the cost of the Aro Keel and other changes I really wanted to see what the Aro/XV1-s did on the Raven. I had also heared Geff P's Orbe/SME/Raven Motor and this was very, very good and started the alternative itch.

The original LP12/Aro/Rua was very good for the state of the art 4 years ago but things have certainly moved on. My personal opinion is that the recent Linn upgrades have exposed them to the likes of the Orbe and the Raven which provide excellent platforms for the Aro and other cartridges.

The best advice is that you must hear all of the alternatives before making a decision,

FF

What an enjoyable time this was. Thanks to Frank and the lovely Anna for their hospitality.

Not just music but sun, beach and the freshest fish I have tasted together with paella amongst other delights.

quote:

I must also thank Geoff P for bringing his K and K phono pre-amp to demonstrate exactly what a valve preamp can do. The K and K was and will murder a Urika even though you can change cartridge loading on the fly. The K and K replaced my Supercapped Superline for most of the weekend

..I was delighted to discover my biased ears were right in the context of the Supercapped SL, though it is a yet to be tried on test with the Urika.



I brought and we listened repeatably to the following Vinyl:


...and quite a few times:


Julian also brought along some excellent vinyl which I am sure he will comment on...and...of course Frank's excellent collection was raided ranging from ...the ubiquitous FGTH Relax - thru' Brothers in Arms - to some lovely classical pieces including an Italian interpretation of Vivaldi's Four seasonw, some Haydn and the Vienna New Year's day concert and of course some Bach.

The wide ranging styles and genres of music used threw up some interesting comparisons for me and I am sure the others who will need to provide indivdual reaction.

What clearly emerged to my ears was that the Raven / ARO / XV1s combination had a more resolved and detailed sound coupled to excellent pitch control which really shone on slow to medium fast Jazz and classical and in particular piano. There was a great sense of tension and release between notes and emotional nuances were well portrayed.

The Keel'd LP12/ Akiva / Ekos SE on the other hand did not have the level of detail and dynamics but offers that inimitable Linn flow and a great sense of timing and boogie which did shine on modern fast music especially I suspect In Julian's view.

Charlie Mingus -'Mingus Ah Um' was a great test record across the two main contenders. The first track "Better git it in your soul" is fast very, complex and relies greatly on rythum portrayal, the second track "Goodbye Pork Pie hat" is slow and relies mainly on tone and tension with soul feel. Track one was at it's best on the LP12 / Akiva I believe and track two sent shivers down my spine heard on the Raven ARO/XV1-s....Oh dear no easy choice this.

More thoughts to follow

Geoff

Very interesting write-up so far chaps, and there'll be lots more to follow, I'm sure!! Looking forward to watch this thread develop. Glad you had such an enjoyable time.

James

Firstly, I too would like to thank Frank and the lovely Mrs F for an unforgettable weekend, made even better by their other guests, Geoff P and Frederiko Fiske.

My findings do differ a little from Franks; it soon became clear that we all have different preferences in replay performance which made the trials all the more interesting.

quote:

LP12/Keel/Ekos SE/Akiva/Lingo 2. Lots of balls very good on Rock/Pop but lacks some detail and is coloured on classical.

Was my favourite by a very large margin on the vast majority of the music selection that was played, be that rock, pop, jazz or classical. Any colouration and lack of detail is not something I would normally notice or pay too much attention to. However, on some more thoughful, considered, classical and jazz music it did ride through a little to quickly and lost some emotion.

quote:

VPI/XV1-s and Rua generally laid back but for me, a fairly good all rounder. I am waiting for a heavy counterweight which might raise the game and give it more balls. the bias adjuster also needs to be assessed and so this is "in progress" still.

Was f***ing boring; not worth the bother IMO. Totally unengaging hifi of the worst fashion.

quote:

Raven 1 plus Ekos SE and XV1-s. this was not perfectly set up but raised more than one smile. This is a must do again. The Ekos SE certainly goes with this deck and gives detail and it is only the space in the headshell for the XV that held it back!!

I agree this pairing had merit and needs further investigation for some classical and jazz styles. We were blighted by insufficient length cartridge leads which meant we could not get the alignment right so only played briefly (say 1hr?). This combination had a sprightly but grounded quality bit does not bounce/flow along like a Linn

quote:

Raven 1 plus Aro and XV1-s. IMO the best by far on jazz and classical, GFFJ was in ecstasy. Rock was not perfect and I heared some inconsistencies but this is probably down to a problem that became apparent latter with the control unit. TW Acustik were excellent in responding to the cry for help. The control unit apparently is a very old one but a new one is coming down the autobahn as I write this. I will give this a long session at the weekend.

I have to acknowledge the considerable dedication put in by Frederiko here in making 3 generations of armboards out of MDF, all engineered to excellent tolerances and all enabled us to set up the deck very well. This was the only deck for me that held any interest other than the SE spec. Linn. It did beat that deck with the slower jazz and classical music as mentioned above. I feel it would be in Frank's best interests to now consider the correct ARO armboard for this deck being that he liked it so much. It was a great shame that the power supply failed this morning, just as we were enjoying some Antonio Forcione.

quote:

LP12/Aro/TKRua. Good performer but not a star in this company, maybe it needs a Keel and a Radikal but that amount would buy a brand new Raven 1

For me, this deck was second last. I think the combination of the R1 with ARO/ZV1s and the SE spec. Linn do everything that Frank could ever want.

Finally, an honourable mention must go to Geoff's kit phono stage (and great thanks to him for struggling with it all the way to Spain, along with some of his lovely jazz record collection). It was a real treat to hear such an unusual product (so beautifully built by Geoff too). I would not be lying if I said that all of us thought it comprehensively outperformed Franks Supercapped Superline with 4/5 Hiline in many areas but for me, and, even though I am not a lover of the Superline, loosing a couple of the trademark Naim strengths would be a big ask. It is seriously good though and a fraction of the cost of the Superline/Supercap combo.

On returning home, after lengthly exposure to a significantly better system than my own, I have to say I am very relieved that my set still sounds wonderful to my ears, largely due to the fact that Franks room is so different to what I am used too. Phew, no 552/300/SL2 for me then!

Julian

For tonight, I will simply say that as before Frank and Anna made me feel welcomed in their house as a friend, much more than as a guest on a Hifi mission.

I did not agree with every opinion expressed, and though I probably found myself most far from Julian's opinions, I respected his determined and honest assessments completely. I did not share them, but such sincerely held viws should certainly be thought about.

I most agreed with Frank in terms of my favourites [I think], and it will be of real interest to me to see how this runs out.

We had fascinating discussions about set-ups being suitable for genres of music, and so on, and one thing I thought I had worked out was that perhaps the strengths of a given system must mostly suit the specific values each of us as individuals seek in music [and its replay], so that though no system can differentiate [in a salient or artificially intelligent way] it can certainly play to its strengths in bringing forth the aspect most important to the listener - whether this be a driving pulse or more or a sense or the instrumental timbral quality, and the integration of musical lines, or indeed one of the three aspects among many more.

In other words, there are so many variables that what passes as the conventional wisdom, must be tested in the final analysis with real audition ...

To find myself so not agreeing with Julian in major ways, and yet totally respecting his view [as I do Frank's though his is almost similar to mine] is a tremendous lesson.

Very best wishes from George

... who has been welcomed home so very nicely so that, effectively my holiday has been almost a day longer!

My music was a bit more mainstream (see below), I really enjoyed the exposure to Geoff's jazz vinyl which have all been added to my "must haves" list.





Julian

quote:

On returning home, after lengthly exposure to a significantly better system than my own, I have to say I am very relieved that my set still sounds wonderful to my ears, largely due to the fact that Franks room is so different to what I am used too. Phew, no 552/300/SL2 for me then!

Julian

Hi Julian,

I had the same experience when I had SBLs on the end of a 200 - still enjoyable after a set of active DBLs on 500s [etc.], if without doubt much cheaper, but my room made a difference and one that made all the difference IME.

Great to read your words and gather that you are home safe,

ATB from George

Yes, home safe thanks matey.

The most interesting snippet of the day was the quizical look and questioning by the security officer at the airport. Records, que, what are they for, eh, what? Record player, whats that?

J

Evening Gents,

Can I say thanks for such a great thread and a very good debate from respected members

Regards

quote:

maybe it needs a Keel and a Radikal but that amount would buy a brand new Raven 1

Err, nearer two R1's I think Anyway, more about free expensive Radikals tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:

The most interesting snippet of the day was the quizical look and questioning by the security officer at the airport. whats that?

J

I know that look only too well Julian

You should try carrying a Superline or even a Hi-Cap in your hold baggage! Still it would look very "sus" to someone who didn't know what the hell it was under their X-ray machine..... I refrained from making any "BANG" jokes when I got hauled off last time at Einhoven Airport... The guard was a good 6'7" (2.0m+) tall. However, his whole attitude changed when I explained what it was...... Thankfully, he had heard of Naim Audio!

Kind regards to all.

Peter

Gents.

What was the loading use for Akiva with the K&K phono?

Kuma

Geoff will have to answer that one. His stage is very versatile, being able to change loadings [and gain] quickly via a simple well designed switching system. Loading/gain values for the Akiva and the Dynavectors were easily decided on and used consistently throughout the trials.

Julian

Right.

A stock K&K phonos have adjustable loading and gain.

In what area, a K&K *outperformed* a Supercapped Superline?

quote:

What was the loading use for Akiva with the K&K phono?

Kuma...the pad resistors were set to 1600 ohm but that is not the impedance which is the product of the MC stage step up transformers internal impedance and these parallel pad resistors. The MC gain was set to 24dB and the MM stage step up transformers were set to low gain.

quote:

A stock K&K phonos have adjustable loading and gain.

...what is a 'stock' K & K phono? It is NOT a Vinyl reference which is a different design with twice as many valves and no flexible adjustable gain on either MC or MM stages.

regards
Geoff

quote:

You should try carrying a Superline or even a Hi-Cap in your hold baggage! Still it would look very "sus" to someone who didn't know what the hell it was under their X-ray machine..... I refrained from making any "BANG" jokes when I got hauled off last time at Einhoven Airport...

Peter...You should have seen their faces when I put my phono stage thru' the scanner. The very large capacitors and the PS transformer and choke caused consternation. I had an allen key for the box screws which was fortunate since I had to open the box to fully satisfy them.

FYI coming back it just sailed thru' at Malaga airport they didn't even double check or ask questions.. Great security

Geoff

Gentlemen

I wish to extend a sincere THANK YOU for posting this thread and sharing you opinions on two current "contenders" and one "reference" deck, all current and viable options for vinyl playback. As someone who lives a mere one hour away from New York City, the "capital" of the world, it is almost impossible to demo and listen to these three contenders without exerting a considerable amount of effort - and enduring the associated aggravation which would accompany said exercise. As such the luxury of being able to read different viewpoints on the performance of these turntables is one which shows what a wonderful place this forum is. I am sure many who live in places more remote than mine equally share my thoughts.

Keep it coming !

Gregg