Hello
We have recently purchased an n-Vi which seemed to need a NAP 200 Power Amplifier to get the best results though the Linn Majik 140 Louspeakers we were sold for stereo listening. Some of our classical music CDs sound wonderful, especially chamber music, but quite a few and not necessarily old discs sound shrill and harsh, especially when there are massed strings and/or voices. Can an expert tell me if we ended up with the wrong combination or are lots of CDs like that when reproduced more faithfully? Or do our ears need training? When we listen to surround sound with other Linn speakers we do not notice this harshness.
Ray

An alternative to the NAP 200 would be a Supernait, where you would get a better analog preamp section than the one present into the N'vi, which I feel is refinement in the process that you're looking for. The Supernait also offer more power to get a better grip on your Majik 140.

How?

Here you go:

At point 7.5.1 of your N'vi manual, you could select the digital output mode of the N'vi, select it to PCM Stereo. Plug it to one of the digital inputs of the Supernait and select it from the remote control of the Supernait. You're done for the CD replay.

But now here's the rest of the fun.

Plug the analog output of the N'vi to the AV input of the Supernait, set the Supernait to the Unity Gain for that input, and enjoy your home cinema like never before. Make sure that the N'vi is set to the "Large speakers" for the front speakers (see point 7.6.1 in your manual).

And don't worry, it's easy to use. Someone that don't switch the input from AV on the Supernait will still hear something coming out whatever if a CD or DVD is playing. But if you select the digital input you'll hear a better CD replay. And if you don't hear anything from the front speakers when playing a DVD movie, it's because you didn't selected the AV input on the Supernait and left it on the digital input.

Now that's better than a NAP 200, don't you think?

Bye.

Thanks Stoik. So you think the source of our harsh sounding CDs is not the wrong speakers but the NAP200? However we have bought this! Looking at some other postings I wondered whether the n-Vi's CD is its weak point and whether we ought to be planning to add a CD player which, am I right, can then use the n-Vi as its amplifier with the NAP200 to further enhance its performance? Advice on this would be very much appreciated - we are hi-fi illiterates disappointed that our CD listening is not as gloriously transformed as we had hoped after this big outlay! (But the DVD performance is wonderful!)
Thanks
Ray

It certainly won't be the NAP200 responsible for your 'harsh' listening Ray....As Stoik indicates, if you went to something like the Snait, you would be gaining a better pre-amp over the the n-Vi and it is most likely it is this area where the CD replay is falling back...

At the end of the day, you have to appreciate that with the n-Vi, as good as it may be, you have a 'one box' approach and as such, will incur a certain amount of compromise in one area or another...

A separate CD player may well be an improvement on the dual drive inside the n-Vi, but you will still be going through the n-Vi pre-amp section, potentially loosing a good percentage of any performance gain....?

Steve

Oh! I thought you've been in the actual process of fiding alternatives, not that you've bought the NAP 200 already.

The transport mechanism inside the N'vi is very good, as good as the ones found in the Naim CD players. That's why I'd proposed you to use it with the Supernait's DAC and preamp sections, where you'll get the refinement you're looking for, plus the improvement of a better power amp stage than the one found in the N'vi, close enough to a NAP 200 in fact.

So at this point, I would suggest that you ask solutions to your dealer, where you could arrange a listening session with CD players, preamps with a NAP 200 and a N'vi thrown in the mix.

Try also my suggestion about the Supernait, as it will be limiting the box count to only two boxes. And if you decide to go for my suggestion, I'm sure your dealer will arrange a good trade in for your NAP 200, don't worry.

Bye.

Thanks Steve and Stoik again - your help is much appreciated. I am defintely out of my depth here but will be able to talk to our dealer in a more informed way after your comments.
Best wishes to you both.
Ray

If it were me i would change those speakers.
You would not need the 200 then.
The n/vi has a very nice playback sound.
From dvds and cds.

And a good amount of grunt,I used to drive my SBLs with mine and before those Monitor Audio silver RS 600 speaker av system.
Its not the n/vi
Some of todays cds can be a bit harsh on any system though.
Stu

Thanks Stu - that's most interesting. When I asked our dealer if our diappointment with much of our CD listening could be due to the wrong speakers he said that NAIM with Linn speakers had long been recognized as an excellent combination (and in our demo we only had time to hear the Elgar Violin Soanta through the system we opted for and that sounded gorgeous.) What's meant by "grunt" please?
Ray

Naim amps and linn speakers were recognised as a excellent pairing in the late 70s and 80s not so much these days though.
Try some others that are easyer to drive and if possable get a home dem.
If you have just bought this kit your dealer should take them back if you are not happy and change them for something that works for your ears in your home.
Stu

Thanks again Stu
Ray

Why not ditch the 200 and the Linn speakers and just use a full set of nSats, nCent and nSub. That will do both movies and music very well. Nothing has been said about the surround side of things - I presume the nVi is not simply being used as a CD player?

Nigel

The NAIM speakers are good, then Nigel - we weren't given a demo of them. The DVD surround sound with Linn speakers [the Majic 140s plus Trikan centre plus two Katans] seems spectacular to our ears, as does the picture quality. (We don't find the n-Vi controls well behaved though!)
Thanks
Ray

If you are not using 5.1, then ditch the n-Vi - the only Naim product I have owned that I have been less than thrilled with. Very limiting other than for a stand alone 5 channel. CD play is less than a CD5i in my opinion, and you have to have efficient speakers (I would say no less than 87 or 88 dB; and higher would be better) or you get mediocre volume and it ends up in protect mode...pre-amp is nothing special either...I demo'd with a NPA200 & was less than impressed.

The n-Vi is fine for what it is, but I don't think it is sonically much better than a Nait 5i. In the correct application it would be fine, but not a great value for the price IMHO; just try selling a used one!

As with all Naim units the n-Vi needs a while to run in. Compromised it may be, but for an integrated solution its very good. I've certainly never found it limiting with regards volume and with the n system its captivating on movies and when i first demoed the n-vi it had no trouble driving a 5.1 Audiovector setup in a large demo room.

I'd go back to the dealer and demo some more speakers with the bare n-Vi - you may find a combo where you dont need the 200. I ran Neat Motives in my old house and they suited the n-Vi well.

James

quote:

Originally posted by DrMark:
If you are not using 5.1, then ditch the n-Vi - the only Naim product I have owned that I have been less than thrilled with. Very limiting other than for a stand alone 5 channel. CD play is less than a CD5i in my opinion, and you have to have efficient speakers (I would say no less than 87 or 88 dB; and higher would be better) or you get mediocre volume and it ends up in protect mode...pre-amp is nothing special either...I demo'd with a NPA200 & was less than impressed.

The n-Vi is fine for what it is, but I don't think it is sonically much better than a Nait 5i. In the correct application it would be fine, but not a great value for the price IMHO; just try selling a used one!

Dr Mark,
You say you have owned a n/vi.
Yet you started a thread asking about the use of Naca 5 Bit late in the day one thinks.

Thanks DrMark but we are building up a good selection of surround sound classical music DVDs and so far they all sound good with this system - even the Majik 140s - especially when we play Abbado's Mahler Nos 2&3 rather loud so prefer to avoid ditching the n-Vi if possible. Why does the DVD performance seem to be better than the CD I wonder? Also we have the FM tuner version of the n-Vi (although at the momenty reception is spoilt by regular "blips" - maybe an aerial issue yet to be attended to). I did read any reviews of the n-Vi I could find on the net and they all rated it highly although someone warned that the NAP200 wouild be needed - hence we succombed when that package was suggested.
Ray

I asked because I am selling that thing and the potential buyer wanted to know - when I was using it I had 3.5 m of NACA5 wire; I just wasn't 100% positive if he could use other cable, since that was a situation I didn't have to deal with.

I found it to be a very disappointing piece in a number of aspects. Just my experience.

Ray

I don't know if you have just bought all this and therefore have the option to change stuff, as that may alter what you do. The nVi has about CD5i level for CD replay I believe, and as with any all in one there will be compromises. What you do depends on the relative importance of music and movies. A 'proper' stereo with CD and amp, with the nVi added to take care of the surround duties is probably a better option, but if you have the chance to swap speakers I still think the full n speaker package could be just what you need.

Remember that chamber music is easier for a system to portray than big orchestral works, which may be what you are finding out.

Nigel

I agree with Nigel - I had hoped that n-Vi would be a stop-gap measure wile I as in school, having sold my original Olive kit to raise cash. I was using it with Mani-2-sigs, and they were killing the n-Vi; it is OK for a small application all-in-one or as a 5.1 setup for movies only running the fronts through another amp, but as a pure musical reproduction system I was not impressed, especially having had Naim for over 10 years and becoming accustomed to what Naim equipment does. The Mani's kept kicking it into protection mode, and calls to Naim tech people were not able to come up with a solution, including trying to boost the fronts from the options menu. My room is 18 feet by 13 feet, with the system on the long wall.

I even tried to "salvage" my purchase by demoing (is that a real verb?) it with a NAP 200, so that I would use the n-Vi as a source & pre-amp with the 200 handling the power amp duties - a CD5i and a Nait XS was lightyears better, and noticeably so in about 20 seconds of listening - not just better, but much better.

Perhaps I was spoiled by the capabilities of a CDX/72/HC/250 system, which of course the n-VI is not meant to be, but I am very pleased with my CD5X/XS/FC2x arrangement. Even before the FC2x, I was running a CD5i & XS and it was definitely better the the n-Vi (although not as good a picture quality on the DVD's

I would have liked to hear it with Nigel's suggestions of a full n-system speaker setup, but there was no way that was in my student budget. It DID help convince me to replace the Mani's also, and it will soon be on it's way to another owner - at a significant discount from what I paid for it...the cost of a lesson; live and learn.

Thank you Nigel and DrMark – I very much appreciate your considerate suggestions. We actually bought the system just before Christmas but we immediately had various problems with different bits of the equipment and the n-Vi was sent back to NAIM (while we had the shop model) and we only got it back a week ago and have only now, I suppose, really faced up to what we have. The dealer told us he would deal with our outstanding problems when this happened so the situation is complicated. Originally (in more than 5 hours of demonstrations over two sessions!) as he saw how much classical music meant to us he was quite keen to sell us a stereo only system but we were wanting to taste the pleasures of surround sound DVDs and the fun of films – and we get this in ample measure with the n-Vi! And it’s only as we have had the time to listen to a range of CDs that the weaknesses have been brought home to us. I wish though we had known (but suppose we could have guessed) that chamber music is easier for systems to cope with because, as I said above, it was a chamber music CD that convinced us we had the right option. Not all big music is inadequately reproduced though – a Mahler CD set conducted by Chailly is tremendously impressive - so we will now have to ponder what you have said and talk to our dealer and see if we can find a way forward that will not leave us disappointed or penniless pensioners! What, please DrMark, is the FC2x you mention – I can see the other things in the NAIM list (and the CD5X gets brilliant reviews, doesn’t it)? And is there no one to stand up for the Linn Majik speakers which sometimes seem so good? The NAIM ones you mention are surely cheaper?
Thanks again anyway – it’s good to be able to draw on others’ experience!
Good wishes
Ray

quote:

What, please DrMark, is the FC2x you mention

Ray

This is the flatcap 2x, Naim's smallest power supply which is an ideal match for the CD5x and Nait XS, as well as the 122x.

I think you will find that few smaller systems can really portray large orchestral works well. My slimline Naim system is great on chamber music, but give it Beethoven's fifth and it is less convincing. This is something you probably have to live with unless you have £20k or more slopping around.

If you were to get say a CD5x (with the fc2x) and a NAC 122x or 202 to go with your 200 for music, and let the nVi deal with the surround duties I suspect you would be getting to a systen that does what you want - however I have no idea how good the Linn speakers are, and whether they are a match for your Naim amps. But I would not want to suggest you spend more cash - hence the question over whether you could swap the speakers - the dealer has some responsibility to provide you with something you are happy with, thought I'm not sure whether a swap is really possible after four months.

Out of interest, where are you based?

Nigel

Nigel,
As you know i moved to a 122x/150x/Flatcap2x/CD5X/ from the n/vi because i found the music replay side of things was taking over after i got the SBLs.
Wanted better music and this set gave it to me big time over the n/vi.
I used the unity gain on the 122x into a top end Sony AV Amp for surround.
But the n/vi does give you a nice dvda music playback.
Those Linn speakers are a weak link IMO.

HI Ray:

I personally cannot speak to the Linn speakers having never heard them. I looked them up online and if I found the correct ones, the 88 dB of sensitivity would at least make them work better than the Mani-2's I was using, although I noticed that they were still 4 ohm. (Mani's were 85 dB and 4 ohm, and they were kicking my n-Vi's butt all over the room...WAY too current hungry for the n-Vi.)

I think the n-Vi would work better with an 8 ohm speaker, as it did with my ProAc Tablettes when I used it in my bedroom. And those are not incredibly sensitive speakers at 87 dBm and the room was smaller. I just was confronted with its musical inadequacies when I brought it to my dealer and compared as described earlier.

If the n-VI were more flexible with regard to upgrades it would be better - but you are pretty much forced to use its pre-amp if you are going to source out of it, unless you buy another CDP and pre-amp/amp or integrated amp, and then just relegate the n-Vi to running your 5 channel.

The cheapest upgrade would be to add a NAP amp of some sort, but when I demoed it that way it was better, but as many Naimees will tell you, the amp is the lowest on the upgrade hierarchy. I personally believe in source first, then pre-amp, then speakers, then amp, Others would disagree and have valid reasons for their opinion - that's just mine; a speaker can't play what is not there.

Musically, I think you would be happier with a CD5i and a Nait 5i or XS - the are true hi-fi amps even at the entry level in Naim. The n-Vi is a Class-T amp which is an AV amp...and in retrospect from my experience with it, it is rather expensive for what it does, especially with no upgrade path that I can see other than adding the amp. (Although yours having the tuner option which I didn't is a nice feature.)

It still beats a lot of other gear out there for what it is good at doing, and if I has the $ I would have incorporated it into my system for 5.1 channel movie watching only as described in my prior post. It needs relatively efficient speakers, and 8 ohm seems a better choce to me also...which was pretty much confirmed to me on calls to NANA.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray C:
...We actually bought the system just before Christmas but we immediately had various problems with different bits of the equipment and the n-Vi was sent back to NAIM (while we had the shop model) and we only got it back a week ago...

There's a surprise..!

I'm glad you had the shop unit Ray, 3+ months is a long time to be without a brand new machine...

This is a 2008 new n-Vi, yes ? I thought the various problems with these things was in the past...

What were the problems you had Ray ?

Steve

@all
Can an n-vi run properly an Axess and nsats for rears?

While I did not run a center channel, at 6 ohms minimum and 89 dB I can't see why not...I am sure Naim had compatibility with their own products in mind when they designed it. Plus you can individualy tweak all speaker volumes to get the blend you want.

What are your front speakers?

Sl2

quote:

How?

Here you go:

At point 7.5.1 of your N'vi manual, you could select the digital output mode of the N'vi, select it to PCM Stereo. Plug it to one of the digital inputs of the Supernait and select it from the remote control of the Supernait. You're done for the CD replay.

But now here's the rest of the fun.

Plug the analog output of the N'vi to the AV input of the Supernait, set the Supernait to the Unity Gain for that input, and enjoy your home cinema like never before. Make sure that the N'vi is set to the "Large speakers" for the front speakers (see point 7.6.1 in your manual).

And don't worry, it's easy to use. Someone that don't switch the input from AV on the Supernait will still hear something coming out whatever if a CD or DVD is playing. But if you select the digital input you'll hear a better CD replay. And if you don't hear anything from the front speakers when playing a DVD movie, it's because you didn't selected the AV input on the Supernait and left it on the digital input.

Now that's better than a NAP 200, don't you think?

Bye.

Stoik,
just out of curiosity, do you think that the same might work, at least partially, in my system which is DVD5/AV2 instead? I mean (I have already bored the forum on this matter) that I exit the analogue out of the AV2 into my Nap 200 (which isn't harsh at all, at least with my SBLs), but I was wondering if a better preamp section - such as a Nait's - might do the job better.
So I myself had considered trading the 200 for a SNait or a Nait XS just in order to have a >proper< preamp section.
What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by lawoftrust:
@all
Can an n-vi run properly an Axess and nsats for rears?

Yes,
They are the speakers it was made for.
You can select large or small speakers on the n/vi
Stu

quote:

Originally posted by lawoftrust:
Sl2

Too good for the n/vi though they will sound great.
You wont get the best from them as i found with my SBLs.
Stu