A little interesting discovery

I have bought a Stageline N to unify my two systems into one, using my TT with the Supernait. I am going, for now, to use the SN's AUX2 in/out socket to power the Stageline, and observing the schematics I have realized that the SuperNait powers its phone stage with dual rail 24V, but its internal preamp with a single rail. The internal power supplying for the preamp could be dual railed too, like a lesser HiCap, but the choice was made to power the preamp section with a single rail. This explains why an external *cap is so recommended (and audibly beneficial) for the SN: its pre amp is not even powered as well as its phono stage output.

Ah, you Naim R&D smart guys: your flagship integrated's preamp needs an external PSU more than the optional phono stage.

Hats off.

Max

Original Post
Max_B posted:

.... and observing the schematics I have realized that the SuperNait powers its phone stage with dual rail 24V, but its internal preamp with a single rail.

Trouble yourself not.

By 'schematics' do you mean the pin diagram on the rear panel?

I checked my suspicion (as one should) with R&D and can't paraphrase the reply to be any better than their original. So -

'The supernait preamp is powered the same way a nac202 would be powered off a nap200 (for example).

The aux socket does have 2 pins with 24V rails on them, but internally they come from the same preamp rail. The reason for having the 5 pin socket is simply that it's the standard way we power things from an external power supply, so giving the customer the widest range of power supply choices.

Going back to the stage line, again it's arranged like that to allow a (naim) standard power supply to be used.'

TOBYJUG posted:

Perhaps the dual rail feed for the phono/powered output was to compensate for the loss of impedance from extra cable and sockets. Where as the close proximity of the preamp board to the juice source in the integrated negated this ??

Or, as detailed above, there is NO dual rail supply and ---------- (the rest is silence).

Thanks Adam,

so the power for the Stageline, to summarize it further, comes from a single LM317 and not from two. Ok, I like the idea of the two pin connection anyway. I suppose that, a fortiori, the two +24V pins of the Stageline join together into a single line of power inside the box – or are they separated, in case you use a HiCap or higher units..? I mean (I love these nagging little types of secondary curiosities, sorry) is the Stageline in the condition of being dual rail fed? Or if you use a FlatCap, HiCap, Supercap it is still powered single rail?

(The smaller the box, the greater my curiosity...)

Max 

Max_B posted:

I mean (I love these nagging little types of secondary curiosities, sorry) is the Stageline in the condition of being dual rail fed? Or if you use a FlatCap, HiCap, Supercap it is still powered single rail?

Schematics and secondary curiosities, huh? Design and engineering might be the most overthought and overwrought points of discussion on this forum, especially when so often coming from the layman. Folks seem to seek any means to rationalize or defend their gear choices, rather than blindly using their ears. What sensible listener cares what freakin' rail does what if they like what they hear? Self-doubters and the insatiable I guess.

Thanks Joe,

if it were for people like you, we'd still live on trees. But most of all, why oh Earth do you feel the need to join a discussion in which you obviously have no interest and of which no knowledge? Is it something personal with me?

Have a good weekend, Proud Subjectivist; but please, what's the 'layman' thing about? Sounds like a way of offending me but sorry, I couldn't make anything of it...

Best

Max

P.S. If it can be of consolation, most 'folks' already use blindly their brain.

Max_B posted:

Thanks Adam,

so the power for the Stageline, to summarize it further, comes from a single LM317 and not from two. Ok, I like the idea of the two pin connection anyway. I suppose that, a fortiori, the two +24V pins of the Stageline join together into a single line of power inside the box – or are they separated, in case you use a HiCap or higher units..? I mean (I love these nagging little types of secondary curiosities, sorry) is the Stageline in the condition of being dual rail fed? Or if you use a FlatCap, HiCap, Supercap it is still powered single rail?

(The smaller the box, the greater my curiosity...)

Max 

Max - Before it closes, the Stageline is dual railed inside the box so it can make the most of the 2x24V rails if available from the accompanying power supply.

joerand posted:
Max_B posted:

I mean (I love these nagging little types of secondary curiosities, sorry) is the Stageline in the condition of being dual rail fed? Or if you use a FlatCap, HiCap, Supercap it is still powered single rail?

Schematics and secondary curiosities, huh? Design and engineering might be the most overthought and overwrought points of discussion on this forum, especially when so often coming from the layman. Folks seem to seek any means to rationalize or defend their gear choices, rather than blindly using their ears. What sensible listener cares what freakin' rail does what if they like what they hear? Self-doubters and the insatiable I guess.

I retain a certain interest and, Max, it did immediately strike me that - there would be this follow up question. 

As yet another of my deeply researched and exquisitely phrased (I have the best words) posts will again disappear into the aether may I take the rare opportunity of crossing over into mild rudeness.

Joerand you do come across, in your last contribution, as a giant cock. And not in a good way.

Exeunt Bear, pursued by omnes.  

joerand posted:
Max_B posted:

I mean (I love these nagging little types of secondary curiosities, sorry) is the Stageline in the condition of being dual rail fed? Or if you use a FlatCap, HiCap, Supercap it is still powered single rail?

Schematics and secondary curiosities, huh? Design and engineering might be the most overthought and overwrought points of discussion on this forum, especially when so often coming from the layman. Folks seem to seek any means to rationalize or defend their gear choices, rather than blindly using their ears. What sensible listener cares what freakin' rail does what if they like what they hear? Self-doubters and the insatiable I guess.

Oh, we have now a notion of "sensible listener"! I must belong to the complement of this honourable subset as I tend to mistrust my ears (for very good reasons, I believe), I am quite interested in schematics and, I believe, curious. However, self-doubting is not my strenght, I am afraid. What should I do?

james n posted:
Max_B posted:

Thanks Adam,

so the power for the Stageline, to summarize it further, comes from a single LM317 and not from two. Ok, I like the idea of the two pin connection anyway. I suppose that, a fortiori, the two +24V pins of the Stageline join together into a single line of power inside the box – or are they separated, in case you use a HiCap or higher units..? I mean (I love these nagging little types of secondary curiosities, sorry) is the Stageline in the condition of being dual rail fed? Or if you use a FlatCap, HiCap, Supercap it is still powered single rail?

(The smaller the box, the greater my curiosity...)

Max 

Max - Before it closes, the Stageline is dual railed inside the box so it can make the most of the 2x24V rails if available from the accompanying power supply.

James,

I forgot to thank you for this elementary and fundamental piece if information. This will decide the choice of the way I'll power the Stageline.

Best

Max

J.,

if I insert in my mental Mac the data regarding: price, dimensions, cost/quality ratio, s/h availability, sensibility, chance to hide the unit so that it doesn't spoil the neat setup and the mandatory 2 rails of 24V, the choice drops down to two options, one of which is not fit for discussion here, and the other is a s/h HiCap. I wouldn't despise a modified* SNAPS, mainly because of the good sounding, Nap110 Holden&Fisher transformer it contains and because it's a lovely 3/4 size box, but I am impatient and want things done quickly so better not rely on it.

Best,

Max

* By an authorized lab only, I swear!

I am aware of it. But after we Italians have been mocked by almost all US press, by half of Europe governments for 20 years, and a premier of yours has been almost crucified for having spent three days in Capri, all because of Berlusconi, I think I am allowed a single burst of irony vs a man in comparison to whom Berlusconi is a cross between the Dalai Lama and Churchill.

That said, I am always ready to be moderated. Then, in such case it's only up to me to stay or go. It's called freedom.

Max

Max_B posted:

I am aware of it. But after we Italians have been mocked by almost all US press, by half of Europe governments for 20 years, and a premier of yours has been almost crucified for having spent three days in Capri, all because of Berlusconi, I think I am allowed a single burst of irony vs a man in comparison to whom Berlusconi is a cross between the Dalai Lama and Churchill.

Max

Fair enough, Max 

Last night I had cause to remove my Stageline (powered from Aux2 on my NAIT XS). To avoid squeaks and pops I turned the XS off but my CD5XS and FCXS were left on.

I was surprised to see that the Stageline stayed on, since I thought the power for it came from the XS.

I've noticed mention of 'rails' on this thread. My knowledge of them is confined to 'let the train take the strain'. But I'm hoping Max and others might find my observation meaningful.

Chris's casual discovery surprised me too. I have a SN not an XS, and a ***cap instead of a HiCapDR, but I too would have expected that turning the power half off would turn the Stageline off too, because even if I don't know the exact topology of the internal power supply, I know that one of the secondary PSUs from the amp's main one goes to the preamp with a single line of 24V, which is 'bridged' at the 5 pin, 240° socket normally occupied  by the link plug. When we use a *cap we remove the link plug and the 5 pin, 240° socket is free to receive 2 lines of 24V and send the stereo signal to the PSU, from where it returns to the amp section.

If turning the XS off leaving a FC on makes the Stageline stay on, it means to me that the Stageline, when no extra cap is used, receives its single 24V rail from the preamp section and not from one of the secondary rails of the main, internal transformer; which seems a long and winding road but would be justified by the good idea that using a *cap would automatically bring a direct, not an indirect, benefit to the Stageline too, dual railing it.

I hope this makes any sense. It's 1:08 a.m.

Good night to all

M. 

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