Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Resurrection posted:
Huge posted:
Eloise posted:
Resurrection posted:

good old self serving British management simply accelerated our decline as a nation. Thatcher was needed by the country, did steady the ship and scraped away some of the rotten meat much to the horror of her (many) detractors. 

The self serving British management is the result of right wing not left wing.  Its still in force today!

<snip>

In my observation the Management problem in Britain is that Management is seen as a job per se, rather than a means to make a business run more efficiently.

The only way for a manager to justify their salary, is to make those whom they manage work that much more efficiently so that they then earn more revenue for the company than it costs to employ the manager!  (This is a very unpopular opinion when expressed to most 'professional' managers!)

Actually, hopefully to be fair to you, I believe it has been far too easy for foreign companies to asset strip here eg Cadburys  or  ARM and also too easy to come and go unpenalised eg Cadburys again. Too easy to steal a business or simply remove it.

That seems to be a non sequitur.  The take-over of PLCs is something that's planned and arranged at board level, not a management issue.

But in itself I agree, and also agree that there has been a degree of political failing in this, particularly in the case of Cadbury's.

"Do you think Nissan and Honda would have come to UK without being part of "Europe"?"

One thing is for sure in that the Japanese car industry nigh destroyed our car industry simply because it offered better made cars with lots of extras, i.e titnted glass, electric windows, etc as standard on their basic offerings. They didn't leave oil slicks on the drive, nor did they continually break down. Compare an Austin Allegro to a Datsun Cherry and you will see what I mean.

However, and returning to the question, Nissan and Honda and perhaps other 'foreign manufacturers' were given strict import quotas for their product into the UK. However, if their products were shipped here and assembled here in UK plants, the quota rule was relaxed. And this happened,iirc, during the 80s

GTB-Buckaroo posted:

And their cars were of course brought in as kits, not complete vehicles or there wouldn't have been any point...

The same as Land Rover did in Australia, South Africa and Spain... till Toyota undercut them in those markets and the Land Cruiser started to reign supreme of course.

Eloise posted:
GTB-Buckaroo posted:

And their cars were of course brought in as kits, not complete vehicles or there wouldn't have been any point...

The same as Land Rover did in Australia, South Africa and Spain... till Toyota undercut them in those markets and the Land Cruiser started to reign supreme of course.

The original Land Rover was designed this way I think it was called Knock Down Kit Form to allow easy transportation by our Armed Forces.

The Toyota Land Cruiser blitzed the Land Rover in Australia and the Middle East because it was far more reliable in the extremely hot conditions.

Huge posted:
In my observation the Management problem in Britain is that Management is seen as a job per se, rather than a means to make a business run more efficiently.

The only way for a manager to justify their salary, is to make those whom they manage work that much more efficiently so that they then earn more revenue for the company than it costs to employ the manager!  (This is a very unpopular opinion when expressed to most 'professional' managers!)

Actually, hopefully to be fair to you, I believe it has been far too easy for foreign companies to asset strip here eg Cadburys  or  ARM and also too easy to come and go unpenalised eg Cadburys again. Too easy to steal a business or simply remove it.

That seems to be a non sequitur.  The take-over of PLCs is something that's planned and arranged at board level, not a management issue.

But in itself I agree, and also agree that there has been a degree of political failing in this, particularly in the case of Cadbury's.

You are right it was a non sequitur and i should have probably said business rather than management. Management in the UK, to me, seems to have been historically a demarcation line in the business - them and us, which exists, to  a certain extent up to today.

The sense of distrust between the management layer and the shop floor rather than seamless coordination and cooperation for the benefit of the business is still not properly functioning in British society. When companies like Honda or Nissan or Toyota impose their model it has been proven that the British worker can be as effective as anyone anywhere. 

Resurrection posted:
When companies like Honda or Nissan or Toyota impose their model it has been proven that the British worker can be as effective as anyone anywhere. 

"The Japanese ambassador has warned Theresa May that his country’s firms will quit Britain if a botched Brexit makes it “unprofitable” to stay.

Koji Tsuruoka laid bare growing nervousness about the impact of EU withdrawal on the Japanese car giants, banks and tech companies after meeting the Prime Minister in Downing Street.

“If there is no profitability of continuing operation in [the] UK, not Japanese only, no private company can continue operations,” Mr Tsuruoka said.

“So it is as simple as that. And this is all high stakes that I think all of us need to keep in mind.”

The warning comes after the Japanese government, in a leaked letter, called on Ms May to keep Britain in the EU single market and customs union and maintain a free flow of workers.

But the Prime Minister has vowed to pull the UK out of the EU’s economic structures and end free movement of citizens – although, in reality, those changes cannot take place until after a transitional period."

Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
When companies like Honda or Nissan or Toyota impose their model it has been proven that the British worker can be as effective as anyone anywhere. 

"The Japanese ambassador has warned Theresa May that his country’s firms will quit Britain if a botched Brexit makes it “unprofitable” to stay.

Koji Tsuruoka laid bare growing nervousness about the impact of EU withdrawal on the Japanese car giants, banks and tech companies after meeting the Prime Minister in Downing Street.

“If there is no profitability of continuing operation in [the] UK, not Japanese only, no private company can continue operations,” Mr Tsuruoka said.

“So it is as simple as that. And this is all high stakes that I think all of us need to keep in mind.”

The warning comes after the Japanese government, in a leaked letter, called on Ms May to keep Britain in the EU single market and customs union and maintain a free flow of workers.

But the Prime Minister has vowed to pull the UK out of the EU’s economic structures and end free movement of citizens – although, in reality, those changes cannot take place until after a transitional period."

It takes a courageous politician to admit they were wrong and change to do the right thing. Sadly tthe are incredibly rare, and May shows no sign whatsoever of being one of them, and if she does ever back down it will only because she is forced.

But Nissan, I think in the last 2 or 3 years, made significant investment into its Infiniti arm for the luxury end of the market, just as Toyota did with its Lexus brand.

I cannot quite believe that such investment was made with all the referendum stories around at that time. Just as you have a search done by a solicitor when buying a house for future development, etc in the surrounding area, I cannot then quite digest that these VMs didnt do the s ame due dilligance type checks.

There are many ifs, buts, and maybes being floted by either camp. Nobody really knows the end result and the scaremongering by both sides wont help any. I mean, who remembers one David Cameron's dire prediction that the price of a pair of socks would soar if the referendum result choose to leave the EU? Last time I looked, socks are no different in price. Indeed, Aldi were doing some great deals on 2 or more pairs recently... and this from a Prime Minister too. Says it all really.....

Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
My wife had a dalliance with Labour in 1997 and lived to regret that very much.

I don't wish to be prurient but - not John Prescott?

Funny you should mention Prescott, but where we lived  for a number of years there was a bloke who made quite a lot of money as a double for Prescott during the Blair Brown regimes.

And my  wife’s only dalliance was putting an X on the ballot paper for Labour in 1997. Almost as unforgivable as the dalliance you were considering.

Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
When companies like Honda or Nissan or Toyota impose their model it has been proven that the British worker can be as effective as anyone anywhere. 

"The Japanese ambassador has warned Theresa May that his country’s firms will quit Britain if a botched Brexit makes it “unprofitable” to stay.

Koji Tsuruoka laid bare growing nervousness about the impact of EU withdrawal on the Japanese car giants, banks and tech companies after meeting the Prime Minister in Downing Street.

“If there is no profitability of continuing operation in [the] UK, not Japanese only, no private company can continue operations,” Mr Tsuruoka said.

“So it is as simple as that. And this is all high stakes that I think all of us need to keep in mind.”

The warning comes after the Japanese government, in a leaked letter, called on Ms May to keep Britain in the EU single market and customs union and maintain a free flow of workers.

But the Prime Minister has vowed to pull the UK out of the EU’s economic structures and end free movement of citizens – although, in reality, those changes cannot take place until after a transitional period."

And if you can be bothered you can read Honda Management’s rebuttal in today’s Swindon Adver... 

 

It takes a courageous politician to admit they were wrong and change to do the right thing. Sadly tthe are incredibly rare, and May shows no sign whatsoever of being one of them, and if she does ever back down it will only because she is forced.

As Paul Simon sang, “ I would of not give you false hope on this sad and mournful day!”

Resurrection posted:

And if you can be bothered you can read Honda Management’s rebuttal in today’s Swindon Adver... 

The rebuttal more came from Swindon’s two Conservative MPs.  The comment from Honda themselves is less firm...

But the stark warning was dismissed by Swindon’s MPs, as well as bosses from Honda, who sought to reassure the workforce that the company “remains committed to our operations in the UK and Europe”.

“We are working closely with the government to ensure the best conditions for our business following the UK’s exit from the European Union,” a company spokesman said.

http://www.swindonadvertiser.c...lowing_Brexit_fears/

Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
 

 

As Paul Simon sang, “ I would of not give you false hope on this sad and mournful day!”

“But the mother and child reunion
Is only a motion away”

I move that the UK has another referendum, asking the simple question “With the greater information now available, do you really want to leave the EU?”

if the answer is yes, then the people have spoken, and confirmed in the light of greater learning over the past 18 months, so go ahead.

of course, it would be better to define the majority needed for such a momentous decision, and a secondary question could be asked “do you want to leave the EU even if it is a ‘hard Brexit’ with UK also having to leave the custome union?”, but just the basic question would suffice to make me shut up if carried. 

As I asked in an earlier post, why are Brexiteers so afraid of an referendum to confirm? Are they so insecure as to not actually believe it when they say that the majority want it? 

Innocent Bystander posted:
Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
 

 

As Paul Simon sang, “ I would of not give you false hope on this sad and mournful day!”

“But the mother and child reunion
Is only a motion away”

I move that the UK has another referendum, asking the simple question “With the greater information now available, do you really want to leave the EU?”

if the answer is yes, then the people have spoken, and confirmed in the light of greater learning over the past 18 months, so go ahead.

of course, it would be better to define the majority needed for such a momentous decision, and a secondary question could be asked “do you want to leave the EU even if it is a ‘hard Brexit’ with UK also having to leave the custome union?”, but just the basic question would suffice to make me shut up if carried. 

As I asked in an earlier post, why are Brexiteers so afraid of an referendum to confirm? Are they so insecure as to not actually believe it when they say that the majority want it? 

Err, IB, we have already had a Referendum and, err, we won! So, if I was to condescendingly allow you to have a 'clarification' rerun with different rules I would certainly agree. As is evident, Remainers feel that a simple majority is way too simplistic and divisive so  the rules would have to change. This time in order to overturn the result of 2016 Remainers would need a 2/3 majority. 

Resurrection posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
 

 

As Paul Simon sang, “ I would of not give you false hope on this sad and mournful day!”

“But the mother and child reunion
Is only a motion away”

I move that the UK has another referendum, asking the simple question “With the greater information now available, do you really want to leave the EU?”

if the answer is yes, then the people have spoken, and confirmed in the light of greater learning over the past 18 months, so go ahead.

of course, it would be better to define the majority needed for such a momentous decision, and a secondary question could be asked “do you want to leave the EU even if it is a ‘hard Brexit’ with UK also having to leave the custome union?”, but just the basic question would suffice to make me shut up if carried. 

As I asked in an earlier post, why are Brexiteers so afraid of an referendum to confirm? Are they so insecure as to not actually believe it when they say that the majority want it? 

Err, IB, we have already had a Referendum and, err, we won! So, if I was to condescendingly allow you to have a 'clarification' rerun with different rules I would certainly agree. As is evident, Remainers feel that a simple majority is way too simplistic and divisive so  the rules would have to change. This time in order to overturn the result of 2016 Remainers would need a 2/3 majority. 

But as is universally known, unless you choose to ignore all that has happened since, that the information bandied about - by both sides - at the time of thae referendum was at best inaccurate and incomplete.

 I ask for the third time: why are Brexiteers so afraid of the confirmation approach? Is it because you actually believe that the majority will vote against it, despite repeated assertions that the public have voted and do want it? (The true fact is that the public had the opportunity to vote, and the majority of those who did voted fore it, which I accept, however note the past tense, they voted 18 months ago, and they did not vote with The benefit of much knowledge, but a lot of propaganda.

So, why indeed are you, and other Brexiteers, afraid? If the vote is a reinforcement of leave, and regardless of how ‘hard’ a Brexit it is, then that empowers the politicians to press on and make it happen, and will also effectively shut up the people you often insultingly call remoaners.

Resurrection posted:
Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
 As Paul Simon sang, “ I would of not give you false hope on this sad and mournful day!”

“But the mother and child reunion
Is only a motion away”

Oh Dear.

Not like Paul Simon, Adam? Too 'mainstream', eh? Oh Dear...

A rather obtuse and assumptive deflection - even by your standards.

As Brexit negotiations progress more of the implications are becoming clearer to very many more people, businesses and other organisations. More and more worries are being expressed.  The Remainers (like me) will argue that this increasing awareness justifies a rethink. The Brexiteers seem implacable and argue that these worries are misplaced.  That difference of view seems to be dividing MPs too. What I find puzzling is the political judgements seemingly being made in the Conservative party in all this.  If the worries being expressed about Brexit turn out to be right the electorate won't blame themselves for making the wrong call in the referendum; they will blame the party in government when the referendum was conducted and the (same) party who conducted the Brexit negotiations.  Such a outcome would be calamitous for the Conservative party.  Its regular assertion about the dangers of 'letting Corbyn in' is weak and of diminishing relevance for the electorate because fewer and fewer of the electorate will know what 'old Labour' is.  

I would have thought that political pragmatism would drive the majority of Conservatives to seek more validation from the electorate that the nature of the Brexit they eventually negotiate is what is wanted. Without it I think the Conservative party is taking a massive, massive gamble, for the country of course, but also for its own future. No wonder Corbyn is trying to keep his head down on Brexit.  

 

Err, IB, we have already had a Referendum and, err, we won! So, if I was to condescendingly allow you to have a 'clarification' rerun with different rules I would certainly agree. As is evident, Remainers feel that a simple majority is way too simplistic and divisive so  the rules would have to change. This time in order to overturn the result of 2016 Remainers would need a 2/3 majority. 

But as is universally known, unless you choose to ignore all that has happened since, that the information bandied about - by both sides - at the time of thae referendum was at best inaccurate and incomplete.

 I ask for the third time: why are Brexiteers so afraid of the confirmation approach? Is it because you actually believe that the majority will vote against it, despite repeated assertions that the public have voted and do want it? (The true fact is that the public had the opportunity to vote, and the majority of those who did voted fore it, which I accept, however note the past tense, they voted 18 months ago, and they did not vote with The benefit of much knowledge, but a lot of propaganda.

So, why indeed are you, and other Brexiteers, afraid? If the vote is a reinforcement of leave, and regardless of how ‘hard’ a Brexit it is, then that empowers the politicians to press on and make it happen, and will also effectively shut up the people you often insultingly call remoaners.

Err, we won, you lost therefore our rules! And where did I say Remoaners above? Plot and lost comes to mind, IB.

Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
 As Paul Simon sang, “ I would of not give you false hope on this sad and mournful day!”

“But the mother and child reunion
Is only a motion away”

Oh Dear.

Not like Paul Simon, Adam? Too 'mainstream', eh? Oh Dear...

A rather obtuse and assumptive deflection - even by your standards.

Been waiting on you Adam. I have some lovely fresh figures for you to digest. All is not so well in EU paradise.

"Eurozone bad debt, estimated at €944 billion, has hampered new lending and return on equity at all too many banks over the last decade. In absolute terms Bloomberg reports that Italian lenders are nursing a cool €224 billion in problem loans, followed by France with €142 billion and Spain €131 billion. As a percentage of total loans Greece and Cyprus have somewhere between 25 and 50 per cent of loans in arrears, Ireland, Portugal, and the Balkans between 10 and 25 per cent."

Obtuse  and assumptive enough for you?

MDS posted:

As Brexit negotiations progress more of the implications are becoming clearer to very many more people, businesses and other organisations. More and more worries are being expressed.  The Remainers (like me) will argue that this increasing awareness justifies a rethink. The Brexiteers seem implacable and argue that these worries are misplaced.  That difference of view seems to be dividing MPs too. What I find puzzling is the political judgements seemingly being made in the Conservative party in all this.  If the worries being expressed about Brexit turn out to be right the electorate won't blame themselves for making the wrong call in the referendum; they will blame the party in government when the referendum was conducted and the (same) party who conducted the Brexit negotiations.  Such a outcome would be calamitous for the Conservative party.  Its regular assertion about the dangers of 'letting Corbyn in' is weak and of diminishing relevance for the electorate because fewer and fewer of the electorate will know what 'old Labour' is.  

I would have thought that political pragmatism would drive the majority of Conservatives to seek more validation from the electorate that the nature of the Brexit they eventually negotiate is what is wanted. Without it I think the Conservative party is taking a massive, massive gamble, for the country of course, but also for its own future. No wonder Corbyn is trying to keep his head down on Brexit.  

Corbyn is a Brexiteer everyone knows that. His Party is paralysed due to his inability to admit it. He can't even raise a question on PMQs in fear of having to disclose his position.

Resurrection posted:
Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
Adam Meredith posted:
Resurrection posted:
 As Paul Simon sang, “ I would of not give you false hope on this sad and mournful day!”

“But the mother and child reunion
Is only a motion away”

Oh Dear.

Not like Paul Simon, Adam? Too 'mainstream', eh? Oh Dear...

A rather obtuse and assumptive deflection - even by your standards.

Been waiting on you Adam. I have some lovely fresh figures for you to digest. All is not so well in EU paradise.

"Eurozone bad debt, estimated at €944 billion, has hampered new lending and return on equity at all too many banks over the last decade. In absolute terms Bloomberg reports that Italian lenders are nursing a cool €224 billion in problem loans, followed by France with €142 billion and Spain €131 billion. As a percentage of total loans Greece and Cyprus have somewhere between 25 and 50 per cent of loans in arrears, Ireland, Portugal, and the Balkans between 10 and 25 per cent."

Obtuse  and assumptive enough for you?

You are conflating the Eurozone with the EU, do you not understand the difference?

So to answer part of your question; yes, definitely obtuse.

Resurrection posted:
 

Err, IB, we have already had a Referendum and, err, we won! So, if I was to condescendingly allow you to have a 'clarification' rerun with different rules I would certainly agree. As is evident, Remainers feel that a simple majority is way too simplistic and divisive so  the rules would have to change. This time in order to overturn the result of 2016 Remainers would need a 2/3 majority. 

But as is universally known, unless you choose to ignore all that has happened since, that the information bandied about - by both sides - at the time of thae referendum was at best inaccurate and incomplete.

 I ask for the third time: why are Brexiteers so afraid of the confirmation approach? Is it because you actually believe that the majority will vote against it, despite repeated assertions that the public have voted and do want it? (The true fact is that the public had the opportunity to vote, and the majority of those who did voted fore it, which I accept, however note the past tense, they voted 18 months ago, and they did not vote with The benefit of much knowledge, but a lot of propaganda.

So, why indeed are you, and other Brexiteers, afraid? If the vote is a reinforcement of leave, and regardless of how ‘hard’ a Brexit it is, then that empowers the politicians to press on and make it happen, and will also effectively shut up the people you often insultingly call remoaners.

Err, we won, you lost therefore our rules! And where did I say Remoaners above? Plot and lost comes to mind, IB.

You didnt say remoaners in the previous email but you, and others, often do. However if you have dropped doing so I thank you and apologise for not having registered the fact.

But you haven’t answered the question - why are Brexiteers so afraid of a confirmatory referendum? If you and others are so confident it is what the people want, I’m surprised you don’t welcome the suggestion as a way of shutting up the rest of us once and for all, as well as strengthening the hand of the Conservative party presently in power to do the job and with the confidence that the public really are behind them.

The same old, same old, brexiteers saying there can’t be another preferendum (because it was, just an exercise to find out the preference of the UK voters), and giving no valid reason why.

But, I doubt there will be another preferendum. The silent majority, the less extreme MP’s will get together, unite and not let brexit happen. It’s the only sensible outcome.

No point in a second preferendum, quitting the EU isn’t really a viable option.

 

 

Been waiting on you Adam. I have some lovely fresh figures for you to digest. All is not so well in EU paradise.

"Eurozone bad debt, estimated at €944 billion, has hampered new lending and return on equity at all too many banks over the last decade. In absolute terms Bloomberg reports that Italian lenders are nursing a cool €224 billion in problem loans, followed by France with €142 billion and Spain €131 billion. As a percentage of total loans Greece and Cyprus have somewhere between 25 and 50 per cent of loans in arrears, Ireland, Portugal, and the Balkans between 10 and 25 per cent."

Obtuse  and assumptive enough for you?

You are conflating the Eurozone with the EU, do you not understand the difference?

So to answer part of your question; yes, definitely obtuse.

You are splitting Huge hairs....

 

You didnt say remoaners in the previous email but you, and others, often do. However if you have dropped doing so I thank you and apologise for not having registered the fact.

But you haven’t answered the question - why are Brexiteers so afraid of a confirmatory referendum? If you and others are so confident it is what the people want, I’m surprised you don’t welcome the suggestion as a way of shutting up the rest of us once and for all, as well as strengthening the hand of the Conservative party presently in power to do the job and with the confidence that the public really are behind them.

Once the 1st Referendum has been implemented fully and the dust has settled and if there was self evidently an appetite for a confirmatory Referendum, then who am I to disagree? In fact, if Corbyn or a Soubry led Conservative Party got into power nothing could stop them holding another Referendum, even one that said that 48% to stay in was to be seen as a victory. 

 

The same old, same old, brexiteers saying there can’t be another preferendum (because it was, just an exercise to find out the preference of the UK voters), and giving no valid reason why.

But, I doubt there will be another preferendum. The silent majority, the less extreme MP’s will get together, unite and not let brexit happen. It’s the only sensible outcome.

No point in a second preferendum, quitting the EU isn’t really a viable option.

 

 LOL  

Desperate stuff.

Resurrection posted:

Obtuse  and assumptive enough for you?

Can I make two request that are (a) not really on topic and (b) not just directed to you but to anyone else who does the same.

Can you please cut out the quoting the entire message - preferably by quote the previous posters message suitably trimmed (rather than all 4/5/6 previous messages); but if thats tricky (as it can be on tablets) then reply without a quote and put a @Adam Meredith if you are replying directly to someone.  It makes reading (and replying) on tablets much easier.

Second; if you quote from a third party, please at least state where you are quoting from preferably with a link.

(PS. I'm not claiming I'm immune to the criticisms I made of others here... just makes for a much easier following the discussion)

Resurrection posted:

"Eurozone bad debt, estimated at €944 billion, has hampered new lending and return on equity at all too many banks over the last decade. In absolute terms Bloomberg reports that Italian lenders are nursing a cool €224 billion in problem loans, followed by France with €142 billion and Spain €131 billion. As a percentage of total loans Greece and Cyprus have somewhere between 25 and 50 per cent of loans in arrears, Ireland, Portugal, and the Balkans between 10 and 25 per cent."

Just a minute - are we talking about personal and private debt here, or government borrowings?

Resurrection posted:
 

The same old, same old, brexiteers saying there can’t be another preferendum (because it was, just an exercise to find out the preference of the UK voters), and giving no valid reason why.

But, I doubt there will be another preferendum. The silent majority, the less extreme MP’s will get together, unite and not let brexit happen. It’s the only sensible outcome.

No point in a second preferendum, quitting the EU isn’t really a viable option.

 

 LOL  

Desperate stuff.

Great comeback.

Are you a genius with small hands and a comb over.

Resurrection posted:
 

But you haven’t answered the question - why are Brexiteers so afraid of a confirmatory referendum? If you and others are so confident it is what the people want, I’m surprised you don’t welcome the suggestion as a way of shutting up the rest of us once and for all, as well as strengthening the hand of the Conservative party presently in power to do the job and with the confidence that the public really are behind them.

Once the 1st Referendum has been implemented fully and the dust has settled and if there was self evidently an appetite for a confirmatory Referendum, then who am I to disagree? In fact, if Corbyn or a Soubry led Conservative Party got into power nothing could stop them holding another Referendum, even one that said that 48% to stay in was to be seen as a victory. 

So you can’t answer the question? It is clear to the rest of us that it is because you fear that in fact the majority of people really would like to remain in the EU. (And as previously indicated I am talking about a referendum before Brexit happens,)

Your senseless observation that there’s nothing to prevent a fresh referendum after Brexit has happened is not even worthy of comment.

Resurrection posted:
 Huge

You are conflating the Eurozone with the EU, do you not understand the difference?

So to answer part of your question; yes, definitely obtuse.

You are splitting Huge hairs....

Given that UK is not in the Eurozone and it was never proposed by the Remainers that the UK would join the Eurozone, then the distinction, rather than being a split hair, is actually very apposite.

Furthermore, your trivialisation of the difference suggests that, either you really don't understand the difference, or you are indeed being deliberately obtuse so as to obfuscate the point.

Eloise posted:
Resurrection posted:

Obtuse  and assumptive enough for you?

Can I make two request that are (a) not really on topic and (b) not just directed to you but to anyone else who does the same.

Can you please cut out the quoting the entire message - preferably by quote the previous posters message suitably trimmed (rather than all 4/5/6 previous messages); but if thats tricky (as it can be on tablets) then reply without a quote and put a @Adam Meredith if you are replying directly to someone.  It makes reading (and replying) on tablets much easier.

Second; if you quote from a third party, please at least state where you are quoting from preferably with a link.

(PS. I'm not claiming I'm immune to the criticisms I made of others here... just makes for a much easier following the discussion)

Guilty as charged, primarily when using an iPhone now or iPad normally. Will try to minimise embedded comments.

fatcat posted:

So, Boris has just said. Not going through with brexit will be disastrous for the UK.

Well, he wouldn’t have said that if he didn’t think there is a serious possibility it will happen.......

Did he actually specify who it would be disastrous for? ... surely not going through with Brexit would be disastrous for Boris Johnson is all that matters in that speech!

Eloise posted:
Resurrection posted:

"Eurozone bad debt, estimated at €944 billion, has hampered new lending and return on equity at all too many banks over the last decade. In absolute terms Bloomberg reports that Italian lenders are nursing a cool €224 billion in problem loans, followed by France with €142 billion and Spain €131 billion. As a percentage of total loans Greece and Cyprus have somewhere between 25 and 50 per cent of loans in arrears, Ireland, Portugal, and the Balkans between 10 and 25 per cent."

Just a minute - are we talking about personal and private debt here, or government borrowings?

Looks like personal debt Eloise which, to me, is the sharp end as their individual country banks are becoming terribly exposed. But, I am happy to hear a different take on it.

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