Are we sleep-walking out of Europe ?

Innocent Bystander posted:
Drewy posted:

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Unfortunately the same old thing hasn’t been stopped yet...

It's the nature of this particular pattern.

Once established it can't be altered by any amount of rationality from the outside; it can only be changed from the inside (and I have specific reason to know this ).

Just in case someone stumbles across my last post and believes that it truly reflects my point of view, I hasten to add the following comment. Whilst I do believe that a number of the Brexit leaders have been and are self promoting, and that a number of them also appear to be at least slightly xenophobic, my last post was intended to be deliberately vulgar and exaggerated in order to parody some of the more extreme and opinionated posts on the other side of the Brexit argument.   

This thread started out as a medium for genuine debate about the pros and cons of Brexit and the observation that those people on the 'remain' side appeared to  be far too complacent about the likely result of the referendum. Some contributors to the forum now appear to be far more interested in triumphalism and dogma rather than constructive or rational and logical argument. 

Innocent Bystander posted:
Drewy posted:

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Unfortunately the same old thing hasn’t been stopped yet...

Yep, I wish you would just give in, IB!

On a lighter note, next time you're in Portmahomack go to the Oyster Catcher B&B and restaurant. Seafood paradise.

I for one understood the point you were making in your earlier post, Hmack.  Regrettably it seems to be a feature of the Brexit debate that while there are those who want to understand and argue the practicalities and economic aspects of staying or leaving the EU, and do so out of a concern for the country and society, the debate seems to have an irresistible pull exerted by those motivated by ideology, prejudice, ego and ambition. And that is not wholly a dig at the right-wing Brexiteers as I sense there are those on the hard left whose arguments seem motivated more by anti-Tory ideology than what's good for the country.  This raises passions to a level which seem to drown out reasoned debate.

It's hard too draw out any positives in this but I harbour a degree of comfort in (a) the belief that Mrs May and her Chancellor seem practical and reasoned by nature and hopefully will moderate the excesses of the hard Brexiteers and (b) if the PM is unsuccessful in this the likelihood is that the conservatives will implode, another general election will follow and a new government, faced with an impasse within the UK over Brexit terms, will decide to seek another mandate from the people.  

MDS posted:

I for one understood the point you were making in your earlier post, Hmack.  Regrettably it seems to be a feature of the Brexit debate that while there are those who want to understand and argue the practicalities and economic aspects of staying or leaving the EU, and do so out of a concern for the country and society, the debate seems to have an irresistible pull exerted by those motivated by ideology, prejudice, ego and ambition. And that is not wholly a dig at the right-wing Brexiteers as I sense there are those on the hard left whose arguments seem motivated more by anti-Tory ideology than what's good for the country.  This raises passions to a level which seem to drown out reasoned debate.

It's hard too draw out any positives in this but I harbour a degree of comfort in (a) the belief that Mrs May and her Chancellor seem practical and reasoned by nature and hopefully will moderate the excesses of the hard Brexiteers and (b) if the PM is unsuccessful in this the likelihood is that the conservatives will implode, another general election will follow and a new government, faced with an impasse within the UK over Brexit terms, will decide to seek another mandate from the people.  

Indeed, I am fascinated by TM's constant desire to kick the can down the road, which has reached a new art-form with the cabinet currently tasked to workshop two conflicting solutions to the customs union conundrum, both of which have already been rejected by the EU commission. 

Could it be that by deferring the decision, TM is following the path suggested by author Ian McEwan, who has noted that:

“A gang of angry old men, irritable even in victory, are shaping the future of the country against the inclinations of its youth. And a handful of billionaires lavishly funded the Brexit campaigns for their own financial reasons. But, by 2019 the country could be in a receptive mood: 2.5 million over-18-year-olds, freshly franchised and mostly remainers. And also 1.5 million oldsters, mostly Brexiters, freshly in their graves.”

Resurrection posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
Drewy posted:

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Unfortunately the same old thing hasn’t been stopped yet...

Yep, I wish you would just give in, IB!

On a lighter note, next time you're in Portmahomack go to the Oyster Catcher B&B and restaurant. Seafood paradise.

Leaving aside your malaise presently centred on Brexit, from which I wish you a speedy recovery but fear there is no cure, and being partial to seafood myself,  I googled Portmahomack as I had never heard of it.

At first my heart quickened because i saw it was in Tarbat, thinking for a moment it must be the delightful seafood restaurant I visited many years ago in a place of that name, not remembering the name of the restaurant itself, but then I saw where it was - the place I am thinking of is on the opposite coast and further north in Sutherland, and spelt differently: Tarbet. Using Google maps to zoom in on Tarbet, I am reminded that that restaurant is called the Shorehouse. Admittedly 29 years now since I ate there, on honeymoon after a gloriously sunny day when I got sunburnt watching puffins on nearby Handa Island, i remember the food as exquisitely good, and am determined to go back one day, hopefully now in the not too distant future - so I was pleased to note that  it the restaurant indeed still there, and run by the same family. Maybe I’ll do a round trip and include a comparison of west and east coast seafood in  the two Tarb*ts!

Hmack posted:

Ok Resurrection - let's turn it around.

As your posts have so ably persuaded me , it's all about me, me, me,  and nothing to do with the general good of our country. So here goes with a mirror image of your post: 

A bunch of greedy, self promoting egotistical xenophobes and borderline racists decide to support Brexit. They do this out of a motive of self interest and self promotion, combined with a dislike of Johnny foreigner in general, who hates us and always seems to be picking on us simply because we are British. He even deigns to legislate to tell us what to do from time to time. How dare he - we are British? These self promoting Brexiteers continue to push for a so-called 'Hard Brexit'  to satisfy their dogmatic and entrenched ideology, despite the fact that all the  evidence points to the fact that this would be to the detriment of the country as a whole and Northern Ireland in particular. Am afraid the actions of these people alone ensures I will always be a remainer and will do anything I can in order to sabotage Brexit, no matter the impact on the people of this country even if it is in the small hope that these nasty pieces of work don' t get their way.

A good way to unite the country and persuade anyone on the opposite side of the Brexit argument to come over to my side, or a deliberate attempt to fan the flames of division - you decide!   

 

I don't have to fan anything. If you lot would stop contesting the vote we won then all incendiary discussions would stop. But you won't and therefore neither will I.

Innocent Bystander posted:
Resurrection posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
Drewy posted:

Crikey 96 pages of the same old thing

Unfortunately the same old thing hasn’t been stopped yet...

Yep, I wish you would just give in, IB!

On a lighter note, next time you're in Portmahomack go to the Oyster Catcher B&B and restaurant. Seafood paradise.

Leaving aside your malaise presently centred on Brexit, from which I wish you a speedy recovery but fear there is no cure, and being partial to seafood myself,  I googled Portmahomack as I had never heard of it.

At first my heart quickened because i saw it was in Tarbat, thinking for a moment it must be the delightful seafood restaurant I visited many years ago in a place of that name, not remembering the name of the restaurant itself, but then I saw where it was - the place I am thinking of is on the opposite coast and further north in Sutherland, and spelt differently: Tarbet. Using Google maps to zoom in on Tarbet, I am reminded that that restaurant is called the Shorehouse. Admittedly 29 years now since I ate there, on honeymoon after a gloriously sunny day when I got sunburnt watching puffins on nearby Handa Island, i remember the food as exquisitely good, and am determined to go back one day, hopefully now in the not too distant future - so I was pleased to note that  it the restaurant indeed still there, and run by the same family. Maybe I’ll do a round trip and include a comparison of west and east coast seafood in  the two Tarb*ts!

The Oyster Catcher is very quirky and at first I was unsure about the whole place. It has been run by a husband and wife for the last 17 years. The theme, if there is one, is lobster. I had scallops and haggis as a starter then sole fillets stuffed with lobster. There were endless amuse bouches and as Michelin would say, il vaut la déviation.

Resurrection posted:

"I don't have to fan anything. If you lot would stop contesting the vote we won then all incendiary discussions would stop. But you won't and therefore neither will I".

What you don't appear to be able to grasp is that the referendum involved a simple binary choice - 'yes' or 'no', whereas the detail surrounding the negotiation of terms and our ultimate deal (or no deal) with the EU is exceptionally complex.  

You'lot' (to borrow your label) appear to believe A) that the fact that you won the initial binary vote entitles you to absolute and uncontested control over the detail of the Brexit negotiations, and B) that your interpretation of what Brexit means (apparently it means a 'Hard' Brexit with no customs union or partnership) aligns with that of every individual who voted to leave the EU.

That belief is plainly ludicrous and politically and economically dangerous, and that is why those of us who voted differently don't feel the inclination to walk away and leave you and the Brexit hardliners to it.

 

 'But, by 2019 the country could be in a receptive mood: 2.5 million over-18-year-olds, freshly franchised and mostly remainers. And also 1.5 million oldsters, mostly Brexiters, freshly in their graves.”

I personally haven't heard of Ian Mckeowan is but I am sure with stuff like this his books must sell like hot cakes. The quote is really quite unpleasant and disrespectful.

 

 

thebigfredc posted:

 'But, by 2019 the country could be in a receptive mood: 2.5 million over-18-year-olds, freshly franchised and mostly remainers. And also 1.5 million oldsters, mostly Brexiters, freshly in their graves.”

I personally haven't heard of Ian Mckeowan is but I am sure with stuff like this his books must sell like hot cakes. The quote is really quite unpleasant and disrespectful.

 

 

It might be a bit stark.  But I seem to remember that the voting and opinion polls on the EU referendum showed that it was older voters who were more inclined to vote leave and younger voters, and those approaching voting age, were strongly in favour of remaining.  So the quote isn't wrong. 

thebigfredc posted:

 'But, by 2019 the country could be in a receptive mood: 2.5 million over-18-year-olds, freshly franchised and mostly remainers. And also 1.5 million oldsters, mostly Brexiters, freshly in their graves.”

I personally haven't heard of Ian Mckeowan is but I am sure with stuff like this his books must sell like hot cakes. The quote is really quite unpleasant and disrespectful.

 

 

McEwan’s work can be a bit of a curate’s egg I find. However, am having trouble keeping up with threads as am in John O’Groats trying to escape the REmoaning! 

Resurrection posted:

... However, am having trouble keeping up with threads as am in John O’Groats trying to escape the REmoaning! 

Sorry, not even you can escape from valid logic!


P.S.  Am I right in thinking that you quite enjoy the two way exchange of somewhat 'barbed' comments?
Your last post gave me some thought that I may, in fact, be wrong in that assumption, and that I should ask.

Resurrection posted:
thebigfredc posted:

 'But, by 2019 the country could be in a receptive mood: 2.5 million over-18-year-olds, freshly franchised and mostly remainers. And also 1.5 million oldsters, mostly Brexiters, freshly in their graves.”

I personally haven't heard of Ian Mckeowan is but I am sure with stuff like this his books must sell like hot cakes. The quote is really quite unpleasant and disrespectful.

 

 

McEwan’s work can be a bit of a curate’s egg I find. However, am having trouble keeping up with threads as am in John O’Groats trying to escape the REmoaning! 

Does that mean you’re heading round the coast? I can recommend some of the north west As a great place to get away from it all - good for introsoection (to amend your views on Brexit, of course!). Durness is a lovely village, much nicer than Jo’G, used to gave an art & craft village. If the Navy isn’t trying to blow up one of the islands just off the coast towards Cape Wrath, the minibus service to visit the cape is worth doing. Further south, from the fishing village of Linlochbervie you can drive as far as Oldshoremore, then if the weather is good a nice 5 mile walk up the coast to Sandwood Bay, a mile long glorious sandy beach, with rarely another human in sight. Then a little furthe south of course there’s the tiny road to Tarbet, and Handa Island.

Or are you heading for Orkney, Shetland, Faroes and Iceland, on to Greenland to forget forever about the EU and all things to do with leaving or staying in It?

The European Commission has published its views on aviation safety rules post-Brexit, if there is no implementation period or other agreements in place. It sets out the scenario from a legal perspective and details how EASA licences and certificates would be treated if we are not an EASA associate member.

In response the UK CAA have said: "The Government, the UK Civil Aviation Authority and the entire aviation industry have been clear that our collective preference is to remain a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) once the UK withdraws from the European Union (EU). The EU paper describes what the situation will be if this is both not achieved and no other agreements are in place, including an implementation period. While this a matter for government, we believe this to be a highly unlikely scenario. However, we continue to make the necessary contingency plans."

At least we all seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet at the moment.

Assuming we do remain part of EASA, i'm still not sighted  on how much our contribution will be and whether we shall have any right of input, or just follow the Rules as established by others

Don Atkinson posted:

 

Assuming we do remain part of EASA, i'm still not sighted  on how much our contribution will be and whether we shall have any right of input, or just follow the Rules as established by others

Don; would remaining part of the EASA, through associated membership or however, likely require agreeing to the ECJ overseeing the rules of the EASA or is that not an issue with EASA?

Innocent Bystander posted:
Resurrection posted:
thebigfredc posted:

 'But, by 2019 the country could be in a receptive mood: 2.5 million over-18-year-olds, freshly franchised and mostly remainers. And also 1.5 million oldsters, mostly Brexiters, freshly in their graves.”

I personally haven't heard of Ian Mckeowan is but I am sure with stuff like this his books must sell like hot cakes. The quote is really quite unpleasant and disrespectful.

 

 

McEwan’s work can be a bit of a curate’s egg I find. However, am having trouble keeping up with threads as am in John O’Groats trying to escape the REmoaning! 

Does that mean you’re heading round the coast? I can recommend some of the north west As a great place to get away from it all - good for introsoection (to amend your views on Brexit, of course!). Durness is a lovely village, much nicer than Jo’G, used to gave an art & craft village. If the Navy isn’t trying to blow up one of the islands just off the coast towards Cape Wrath, the minibus service to visit the cape is worth doing. Further south, from the fishing village of Linlochbervie you can drive as far as Oldshoremore, then if the weather is good a nice 5 mile walk up the coast to Sandwood Bay, a mile long glorious sandy beach, with rarely another human in sight. Then a little furthe south of course there’s the tiny road to Tarbet, and Handa Island.

Or are you heading for Orkney, Shetland, Faroes and Iceland, on to Greenland to forget forever about the EU and all things to do with leaving or staying in It?

We're doing  the North Coast 500 and have done John O'Groats and Dunnett Head today before going rIght  across the top. Stopped at Durness and discovered we had no time to go out to Cape Wrath as we had to get down near to Lochinver. We are now in the middle of nowhere as our friends made the booking. Rathervlike Brexit really!

Resurrection posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
Resurrection posted:
thebigfredc posted:

 'But, by 2019 the country could be in a receptive mood: 2.5 million over-18-year-olds, freshly franchised and mostly remainers. And also 1.5 million oldsters, mostly Brexiters, freshly in their graves.”

I personally haven't heard of Ian Mckeowan is but I am sure with stuff like this his books must sell like hot cakes. The quote is really quite unpleasant and disrespectful.

 

 

McEwan’s work can be a bit of a curate’s egg I find. However, am having trouble keeping up with threads as am in John O’Groats trying to escape the REmoaning! 

Does that mean you’re heading round the coast? I can recommend some of the north west As a great place to get away from it all - good for introsoection (to amend your views on Brexit, of course!). Durness is a lovely village, much nicer than Jo’G, used to gave an art & craft village. If the Navy isn’t trying to blow up one of the islands just off the coast towards Cape Wrath, the minibus service to visit the cape is worth doing. Further south, from the fishing village of Linlochbervie you can drive as far as Oldshoremore, then if the weather is good a nice 5 mile walk up the coast to Sandwood Bay, a mile long glorious sandy beach, with rarely another human in sight. Then a little furthe south of course there’s the tiny road to Tarbet, and Handa Island.

Or are you heading for Orkney, Shetland, Faroes and Iceland, on to Greenland to forget forever about the EU and all things to do with leaving or staying in It?

We're doing  the North Coast 500 and have done John O'Groats and Dunnett Head today before going rIght  across the top. Stopped at Durness and discovered we had no time to go out to Cape Wrath as we had to get down near to Lochinver. We are now in the middle of nowhere as our friends made the booking. Rathervlike Brexit really!

Eek, no - you’ve gone past the seafood restaurant at Tarbet!  My favourite area is Scourie northwards - when I first used to holiday there, there was a ferry crossing at Unapool  just south of Scourie, with the great advantage that a lot of people turned around and headed back souuth! Well, it’s still nice enough at Lochinver and for so e distance south yet. 

 

Resurrection posted:

We're doing  the North Coast 500 and have done John O'Groats and Dunnett Head today before going rIght  across the top. Stopped at Durness and discovered we had no time to go out to Cape Wrath as we had to get down near to Lochinver. We are now in the middle of nowhere as our friends made the booking. Rathervlike Brexit really!

Your holiday seems quite organised. I’m surprised.

I would have thought, leaving the house with no cases, no idea where you where going and no idea how you where going to get there, was more your style.

HOLIDAY MEANS HOLIDAY.

 

Eloise posted:
Don Atkinson posted:

 

Assuming we do remain part of EASA, i'm still not sighted  on how much our contribution will be and whether we shall have any right of input, or just follow the Rules as established by others

Don; would remaining part of the EASA, through associated membership or however, likely require agreeing to the ECJ overseeing the rules of the EASA or is that not an issue with EASA?

Hi Eloise,

I don't know, is the honest answer to your good question, but I rather suspect "yes". Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Lichtenstein are all members of EASA However,  i'm not totally sure of their terms of membership, but I've not been aware of any aviation matters from those four going to the ECJ, but then I tend to be somewhat parochial, focused on the UK and Canada !

I have sent an e-mail to my MP asking for an answer.

I will let you know what he says !

fatcat posted:
Resurrection posted:

We're doing  the North Coast 500 and have done John O'Groats and Dunnett Head today before going rIght  across the top. Stopped at Durness and discovered we had no time to go out to Cape Wrath as we had to get down near to Lochinver. We are now in the middle of nowhere as our friends made the booking. Rathervlike Brexit really!

Your holiday seems quite organised. I’m surprised.

I would have thought, leaving the house with no cases, no idea where you where going and no idea how you where going to get there, was more your style.

HOLIDAY MEANS HOLIDAY.

 

Ha! Ha! The fact that we're in the middle of nowhere north of Lochinver is down to our friends. My own bookings, as you would expect, have been perfect. The road south from Durness has been superb. Fantastic scenery, long, undulating roads that allowed me the chance to have some real fun, though not necessarily completely legally. Weather has also been spectacular. 

I see that hopeless loser, David Miliband, has struggled back from his $600,000 a year 'job' in New York to give us even more pearls of wisdom. Talk about desperation. 

Hardly a loser if he commands a salary of $600,000, surely.

A particularly strange (and I am sure in this case it is meant to be disparaging) put-down, given that in a fairly recent post you eulogised about a certain Rees Mogg and specifically the fact that he was a self made man who now had a net worth of around £100m.

So I guess your point is that people on the left of the political scene are not allowed to make or possess money whereas it's not only acceptable but downright commendable for those on the right? What a strange world in which you appear to live!

Hmack posted:

Hardly a loser if he commands a salary of $600,000, surely.

A particularly strange (and I am sure in this case it is meant to be disparaging) put-down, given that in a fairly recent post you eulogised about a certain Rees Mogg and specifically the fact that he was a self made man who now had a net worth of around £100m.

So I guess your point is that people on the left of the political scene are not allowed to make or possess money whereas it's not only acceptable but downright commendable for those on the right? What a strange world in which you appear to live!

You mean the parasitic left who either make their money like the KInnocks  through political nepotism or like Miliband by jumping on the 'charity' or quango bandwagon. 

Neither particularly witty nor insightful, and more than a little unpleasant.

I guess your reply probably speaks for itself and was simply intended to offend or at least irritate. It may not even reflect your true feelings.

However, I will take the bait. Just out of interest, are your feelings about the traitorous & parasitic left directed towards a small number of individuals on the 'left', or to anyone whose political views happen to be somewhat to the left of the likes of Rees Mogg, John Redwood or Nigel Farage?  

 

 

Hmack posted:

Neither particularly witty nor insightful, and more than a little unpleasant.

I guess your reply probably speaks for itself and was simply intended to offend or at least irritate. It may not even reflect your true feelings.

However, I will take the bait. Just out of interest, are your feelings about the traitorous & parasitic left directed towards a small number of individuals on the 'left', or to anyone whose political views happen to be somewhat to the left of the likes of Rees Mogg, John Redwood or Nigel Farage?  

 

 

Anyone living parasitically on the public's purse. However, if you look at quangos and charities rather a lot of their top dogs are allegedly left wing but I would call them at best Champagne Socialists, or spongers at worst. Am happy to include any Conservative peer grasping money from the EU  while clearly doing no Lordly duties. But any right winger doing the same as the Kinnocks or the Milibands is fair game as well. I hope you don't think I am prejudiced, Hmack.

Hmack posted:

Hardly a loser if he commands a salary of $600,000, surely.

A particularly strange (and I am sure in this case it is meant to be disparaging) put-down, given that in a fairly recent post you eulogised about a certain Rees Mogg and specifically the fact that he was a self made man who now had a net worth of around £100m.

So I guess your point is that people on the left of the political scene are not allowed to make or possess money whereas it's not only acceptable but downright commendable for those on the right? What a strange world in which you appear to live!

Meaning a loser in terms of his political career.

Can anyone remember anything he said or any deed or action he carried out?

thebigfredc posted:
Hmack posted:

Hardly a loser if he commands a salary of $600,000, surely.

A particularly strange (and I am sure in this case it is meant to be disparaging) put-down, given that in a fairly recent post you eulogised about a certain Rees Mogg and specifically the fact that he was a self made man who now had a net worth of around £100m.

So I guess your point is that people on the left of the political scene are not allowed to make or possess money whereas it's not only acceptable but downright commendable for those on the right? What a strange world in which you appear to live!

Meaning a loser in terms of his political career.

Can anyone remember anything he said or any deed or action he carried out?

Hmmmm.  Now that you pose the question, while I can recall what office he held, I must confess to struggling to remember anything he did. Maybe that's the art of politics: you will only be known for the cock-ups you make so best not to do anything at all.    

He’s pretty shrewd when it comes to keeping his head down and keeping his powder dry. He obviously see’s this as an opportunity to be associated with team soft brexit or team no brexit. One of which will ultimately be successful.

I expect him to given the next safe labour seat and become the next labour leader. Jeremy is looking very old and tired these days, the witch-hunt from part of the Jewish establishment seems to have taken a toll. I doubt if he’ll stick it out much longer.

A pro EU labour leader will be a game changer.

BYE BYE BREXIT.

It's interesting to speculate as to what would have happened had David M not lost the leadership election to his younger brother Ed: an election in which it is alleged that the left wing of the party swung the vote.  I think David M is more statesman-like than his younger brother, and Ed's mishaps in the election campaign proper seemed to undermine him. I don't think David M would have endured the 'bacon sandwich' episode.  

If David M had won that party election I think it highly possible he would have gone on to defeat Cameron, who was rather surprised to win a majority after the coalition and 'austerity'.  If David M had become PM the political world would look very different today i.e. Corbyn would still be a back-bencher and there would be no Brexit.  Maybe Resurrection should be more generous to David M, after all?!    

fatcat posted:

He’s pretty shrewd when it comes to keeping his head down and keeping his powder dry. He obviously see’s this as an opportunity to be associated with team soft brexit or team no brexit. One of which will ultimately be successful.

I expect him to given the next safe labour seat and become the next labour leader. Jeremy is looking very old and tired these days, the witch-hunt from part of the Jewish establishment seems to have taken a toll. I doubt if he’ll stick it out much longer.

A pro EU labour leader will be a game changer.

BYE BYE BREXIT.

Optimistic! The 500,000 Momentum Labour supporters are well entrenched and going nowhere. They hate the old Blairites almost as much as they hate the Tories, soooo, no safe seat for David. 

MDS posted:

It's interesting to speculate as to what would have happened had David M not lost the leadership election to his younger brother Ed: an election in which it is alleged that the left wing of the party swung the vote.  I think David M is more statesman-like than his younger brother, and Ed's mishaps in the election campaign proper seemed to undermine him. I don't think David M would have endured the 'bacon sandwich' episode.  

If David M had won that party election I think it highly possible he would have gone on to defeat Cameron, who was rather surprised to win a majority after the coalition and 'austerity'.  If David M had become PM the political world would look very different today i.e. Corbyn would still be a back-bencher and there would be no Brexit.  Maybe Resurrection should be more generous to David M, after all?!    

Yes, you have to feel sorry for a man so undone by a banana! 🤓

Resurrection posted:
fatcat posted:

He’s pretty shrewd when it comes to keeping his head down and keeping his powder dry. He obviously see’s this as an opportunity to be associated with team soft brexit or team no brexit. One of which will ultimately be successful.

I expect him to given the next safe labour seat and become the next labour leader. Jeremy is looking very old and tired these days, the witch-hunt from part of the Jewish establishment seems to have taken a toll. I doubt if he’ll stick it out much longer.

A pro EU labour leader will be a game changer.

BYE BYE BREXIT.

Optimistic! The 500,000 Momentum Labour supporters are well entrenched and going nowhere. They hate the old Blairites almost as much as they hate the Tories, soooo, no safe seat for David. 

Bejesus, I'd never thought I'd agree with you, Resurrection, but for once I think you're on the money...

Which just highlights the fact that JC was in my view just as complicit in delivering the Referendum result as the likes of Boris & Gove, through his studied indifference and lukewarm campaigning. He vigorously denies it, of course, but like most unreconstructed 70's Marxists he's intrinsically opposed to the EU, not least because EU rules severely constrain national governments from nationalising everything in sight. Not that I'd be opposed to the latter, in some sectors, I should add, where pragmatism overrides political dogma - i.e. the railways.

fatcat posted:

A pro EU labour leader will be a game changer.

BYE BYE BREXIT.

Except by the time there is the opportunity for a Labour government (with whoever in charge) Brexit will be negotiated for good or bad.  Once out of the EU I doubt there will be much support for rejoining, even many who voted Remain would likely not vote to rejoin the EU.  The U.K. will be licking it’s wounds, but an immediate rejoining of the EU is not on the cards.

Dont get me wrong, I think Brexit is wrong for the country, I just don’t have such an optimistic outlook on the possibility of anyone coming to their senses...

Resurrection posted:
MDS posted:

It's interesting to speculate as to what would have happened had David M not lost the leadership election to his younger brother Ed: an election in which it is alleged that the left wing of the party swung the vote.  I think David M is more statesman-like than his younger brother, and Ed's mishaps in the election campaign proper seemed to undermine him. I don't think David M would have endured the 'bacon sandwich' episode.  

If David M had won that party election I think it highly possible he would have gone on to defeat Cameron, who was rather surprised to win a majority after the coalition and 'austerity'.  If David M had become PM the political world would look very different today i.e. Corbyn would still be a back-bencher and there would be no Brexit.  Maybe Resurrection should be more generous to David M, after all?!    

Yes, you have to feel sorry for a man so undone by a banana! 🤓

I bet family gatherings of the Millibands are an interesting spectacle -  I’d pay good money to be a fly on the wall ... lol

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