Atom - DELAYED AGAIN?!?!

ssmith posted:

I must admit I am struggling to think of a worse launch for any product ever, then Neil Young's Pono player came to mind. But then I realised even that had a smoother release, let's hope the outcome is better.

It's a delay - unfortunately it can happen.  Sometimes there are things outside of your control that necessitate.  And sometimes there are things that just need more time, more work.  Naim are far from alone here, but it's good to read Ryan's recent update communique.  I'd imagine he'll post another some time soon to keep everyone updated.  

Fair enough Richard but this has been delay after delay after delay totalling 7 months.I think the problem is that there is no consistent message. Last week it was end of May then early June then mid June then end of June. If you speak to your dealer they give you a different account. Basically I think honesty and a realistic time frame is needed. Anyhow I have been pretty vocal on my distaste on how customers have been treated and am not wasting anymore energy on the Atom now.

Absolutely valid point SSMITH. People have cash tied up with this. My dealer has 38 on back order and two pages of potential new customers. If Naim do not come back with FACTS by the end of next week, they can shove their products - I'll sell the kit I have and move on. It's unacceptable it really is. All they have to do is communicate and cut the BS, marketing fluff and stop hiding behind other organisations and blaming them for delay. I bet it'll be August at this rate.

Arrogant behaviour from Naim - mine's been on order since February - this is TOTALLY beyond a joke.

At the launch there was much made of Naim's £4,000,000 investment in development. Simple question - exactly WHAT is outstanding before the product ships? It is starting to feel as though there is something fundamental that can't be resolved. 

The one thing I cannot tolerate is any level of dishonesty - my confidence in the brand (28 years after buying my first Naim product) is now none existent.....

This smacks of of a total lack of management control with no plan and the team not working together effectively. As far as as PR I am surprised the Hi Fi press are giving Naim such a easy ride? In my recent dealings with Naim I am left with the feeling they are making it up as they go along. Trevor you need to get involved at the customer level like a Paul did.

 

 

 

Richard Dane posted:
It's a delay - unfortunately it can happen.  Sometimes there are things outside of your control that necessitate.  And sometimes there are things that just need more time, more work.  Naim are far from alone here, but it's good to read Ryan's recent update communique.  I'd imagine he'll post another some time soon to keep everyone updated.  

This really isn't a helpful sentence Richard. 

Lord_HIllier posted:

Absolutely valid point SSMITH. People have cash tied up with this. My dealer has 38 on back order and two pages of potential new customers. If Naim do not come back with FACTS by the end of next week, they can shove their products - I'll sell the kit I have and move on. It's unacceptable it really is. All they have to do is communicate and cut the BS, marketing fluff and stop hiding behind other organisations and blaming them for delay. I bet it'll be August at this rate.

I often bang on about Naim sycophants and don't know a direct antonym but to (threaten to) sell up all one's Naim gear over this is in the throwing your toys out of the pram arena. 

There's an awful lot of righteous indignation percolating around the forum. 

You can all just be grateful Richard keeps his guns holstered, there would have been many a round spent if we still had Adam as moderator. 

.sjb

Sloop John B posted:
Lord_HIllier posted:

Absolutely valid point SSMITH. People have cash tied up with this. My dealer has 38 on back order and two pages of potential new customers. If Naim do not come back with FACTS by the end of next week, they can shove their products - I'll sell the kit I have and move on. It's unacceptable it really is. All they have to do is communicate and cut the BS, marketing fluff and stop hiding behind other organisations and blaming them for delay. I bet it'll be August at this rate.

I often bang on about Naim sycophants and don't know a direct antonym but to (threaten to) sell up all one's Naim gear over this is in the throwing your toys out of the pram arena. 

There's an awful lot of righteous indignation percolating around the forum. 

You can all just be grateful Richard keeps his guns holstered, there would have been many a round spent if we still had Adam as moderator. 

.sjb

For all the negatives to do with Atom etc  I think Naim and Richard do a good job at letting this be an open forum for debate, long may it continue. 

Sloop John B posted:

..

You can all just be grateful Richard keeps his guns holstered, there would have been many a round spent if we still had Adam as moderator. 

I think if such behaviour were to have happened here, then much good will and understanding from the silent majority would have evaporated very quickly.... I think Richard plays it just right...

I have been a Naim user for over 40 years and have a traditional system, 552/500 etc, all working well.

i also have the newer products, muso, Qb, core, and have been waiting on the Atom order since December.

the core and its software has been a constant problem and still not resolved.

the Atom is another current problem.

i believe that Naim need to do a root and branch review of their business, as it appears that the "traditional" Naim products and services are fine, but their new foray into streaming products have serious flaws in their business model and is in danger of damaging their long standing brand image.

it appears that the needs and demands of the support needed for the new technology have been underestimated in their business is becoming an embarassment as a result.

top level management need to intervene and correct this urgently 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
Sloop John B posted:

..

You can all just be grateful Richard keeps his guns holstered, there would have been many a round spent if we still had Adam as moderator. 

I think if such behaviour were to have happened here, then much good will and understanding from the silent majority would have evaporated very quickly.... I think Richard plays it just right...

 

This was  not meant as a criticism of Richard more an indication of what  might have happened in other times. 

Still I don't think Julian was a "customer is always right" sort of person and can't imagine he'd have left some of the posters on this thread sail off into the sunset. 

 I find silent majorities  tend to go with the flow. From the point of view of moderation I think both  Richard's and Adam's style alienate  people from the forum - but just different people.  But that again that was not my point -my point was to highlight posts that appear to me to be more of a hissy fit than constructive criticism, i.e. giving Naim an ultimatum or else I'll sell my kit .........

reminds me of .........

.sjb

Sloop John B posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
Sloop John B posted:

..

You can all just be grateful Richard keeps his guns holstered, there would have been many a round spent if we still had Adam as moderator. 

I think if such behaviour were to have happened here, then much good will and understanding from the silent majority would have evaporated very quickly.... I think Richard plays it just right...

 

This was  not meant as a criticism of Richard more an indication of what  might have happened in other times. 

Still I don't think Julian was a "customer is always right" sort of person and can't imagine he'd have left some of the posters on this thread sail off into the sunset. 

 I find silent majorities  tend to go with the flow. From the point of view of moderation I think both  Richard's and Adam's style alienate  people from the forum - but just different people.  But that again that was not my point -my point was to highlight posts that appear to me to be more of a hissy fit than constructive criticism, i.e. giving Naim an ultimatum or else I'll sell my kit .........

reminds me of .........

.sjb

Times change though Julian would I'm sure not contemplate mass market products in John Lewis. 

Will try and keep this constructive. What I would say for many these products are big investments. I know these amounts are peanuts to many on the forum ie three Powerlines. The amounts spent are all relative, after a house and car this is the biggest investment I have made. Relative to this I think in part the nature of 'hissy fit' is more genuine concern that one has made a poor decision investing in these products. 

I'm getting impatient waiting for my Nova but one thing that is puzzling me on this and related threads is that some people seem to have paid in advance for their Atoms etc. This seems a very unfair way of doing business if that is the case - I simply had a friendly conversation with my dealer to agree a (very fair) trade in for my SU and the matter was settled - no prepayment, not even a deposit.

Pev posted:

I'm getting impatient waiting for my Nova but one thing that is puzzling me on this and related threads is that some people seem to have paid in advance for their Atoms etc. This seems a very unfair way of doing business if that is the case - I simply had a friendly conversation with my dealer to agree a (very fair) trade in for my SU and the matter was settled - no prepayment, not even a deposit.

Because the price was going to go up I had no choice to secure Atom at quoted release price I had to pay deposit or up front. Obviously I didn't foresee the lengthy delay and put my trust in the brand. I paid in full as got reward points and initially when I paid in November I was told no later than end of Dec and earlier in reality so just took the plunge.

This has nothing to do with the Admin, it's to do with the lack of FACTUAL comms. Some of the people on here make me smile, the 'Naim are the saviour of all things musical' mentality, it's cobblers, Naim may be an audio company, a manufacturer, BUT they are a sales and marketing engine too, loose that and loose customers, and then they have nothing. Like I have said before, save your big words, acronyms, alleged associations with "people in the know" and present the FACTS! People need to be able to make an informed choice. Finally, stop stirring the pot sjb. 

Far from stirring I'm attempting to return to a nice simmer a pot that seems to be boiling over. 

I'm saddened to see Naim in this pickle rather than angered.

But if I were angry I'd be using the support email rather than the forum. I've always received speedy courteous responses from any queries to this email or direct to Richard. 

I think Naim are correct not to release until ready, whilst agreeing communication has been poor, and the 2 price increases are giving a great bargain to early adopters when it does arrive, and it will arrive, this is no Ponzi scheme. 

.sjb

Cbr600 posted:

I have been a Naim user for over 40 years and have a traditional system, 552/500 etc, all working well.

i also have the newer products, muso, Qb, core, and have been waiting on the Atom order since December.

the core and its software has been a constant problem and still not resolved.

the Atom is another current problem.

i believe that Naim need to do a root and branch review of their business, as it appears that the "traditional" Naim products and services are fine, but their new foray into streaming products have serious flaws in their business model and is in danger of damaging their long standing brand image.

it appears that the needs and demands of the support needed for the new technology have been underestimated in their business is becoming an embarassment as a result.

top level management need to intervene and correct this urgently 

Very eloquently put. Couldn't have done better.

Unfortunately if your presumptions are correct, root and branch reviews and improvement plans are not easy fix.

From my 30 years in business management , really admitting the SCALE of problem and starting to sort it out usually have a large time gap.

Naim's traditional implementation preference no longer cuts it in the modern consumer lead market where social media comments are rapid and relentless and a brand confidence can be lost far more quickly.

RR

 

ssmith posted:
Pev posted:

I'm getting impatient waiting for my Nova but one thing that is puzzling me on this and related threads is that some people seem to have paid in advance for their Atoms etc. This seems a very unfair way of doing business if that is the case - I simply had a friendly conversation with my dealer to agree a (very fair) trade in for my SU and the matter was settled - no prepayment, not even a deposit.

Because the price was going to go up I had no choice to secure Atom at quoted release price I had to pay deposit or up front. Obviously I didn't foresee the lengthy delay and put my trust in the brand. I paid in full as got reward points and initially when I paid in November I was told no later than end of Dec and earlier in reality so just took the plunge.

Paying upfront to secure the price? What kind of business practice is that? Does this come from Naim or is it the idea of your dealer? If the latter you should be mad at the dealer and not at Naim. And Naim should have a word with the dealer too.

In any case you should be able to set your dealer a deadline, and then cancel your order and get your money back if Naim still does not deliver.

jfritzen posted:
ssmith posted:
Pev posted:

I'm getting impatient waiting for my Nova but one thing that is puzzling me on this and related threads is that some people seem to have paid in advance for their Atoms etc. This seems a very unfair way of doing business if that is the case - I simply had a friendly conversation with my dealer to agree a (very fair) trade in for my SU and the matter was settled - no prepayment, not even a deposit.

Because the price was going to go up I had no choice to secure Atom at quoted release price I had to pay deposit or up front. Obviously I didn't foresee the lengthy delay and put my trust in the brand. I paid in full as got reward points and initially when I paid in November I was told no later than end of Dec and earlier in reality so just took the plunge.

Paying upfront to secure the price? What kind of business practice is that? Does this come from Naim or is it the idea of your dealer? If the latter you should be mad at the dealer and not at Naim. And Naim should have a word with the dealer too.

In any case you should be able to set your dealer a deadline, and then cancel your order and get your money back if Naim still does not deliver.

I'm not sure  who required payment upfront. Can't change it now, going over old ground but the whole experience has been one of the worst, if not the worst, interactions with a company I've had, any goodwill has been used up. By the time the Nova is released we could be looking at over a year since launch. I wonder if someone missread the date in the memo and launched a year early as it wasn't even close to ready.

I'm also one of the people that put down a considerable deposit when I ordered my Atom back in December. However this ensures that I'll be getting mine for the original price. I've been quite lucky in that my dealer has arranged a loaner SuperUniti for me while I wait. The SuperUniti is something that I originally would not even think about buying at the time because of the extra cost. However, it might end up permanently staying.

Hi all, in reality this launch has been hugely painful and has taken significantly more twists and turns than expected, to say the least. We planned for a fair amount, but nowhere close to the reality.

 We have certified all legal compliance issues. The headaches have come from the detailed integration of services and in several cases moving targets on non-legal compliance certification expectations. I’m not at liberty to say which of these has caused us significant pain, but I can say with honesty that this is now with the certification houses involved. It remains to be seen if we pass this time, as this is not the first submission. I am however optimistic that the results will be positive, based on our testing, but one never knows sadly. Oh if only it were true that all tests were simple and laid down cleanly, but they aren't.

It would have been significantly easier to have gone a singular route in terms of integration of services, or not integrated them, or not complied with them all into the product directly, however, I do firmly believe it is the right decision for our customers in the long term.

I do accept and appreciate the full extent of the frustrations involved, it is something that sits with me every single day and waking hour. The last months have been the toughest ever for the team, and myself, being frank.

 The May target was set and I honestly believe we have done everything in our power to hit this. I do not blame any other partner for our pain, and wish only to get these products to market you so you can enjoy them.

I will not break any commitments/promises I have made to our technical partners in order to ship product. I feel this would be unethical and as such I accept the frustrations fairly towards Naim, and Naim only.

 I must take a couple of you to task, over your comments in the light of the above. We are working the hardest we ever have to get you these products as quickly as we can but without cutting corners or compromising quality.  Of course, we want to get those shipped asap and to suggest otherwise is foolish.

Trevor

Trevor Wilson posted:

Hi all, in reality this launch has been hugely painful and has taken significantly more twists and turns than expected, to say the least. We planned for a fair amount, but nowhere close to the reality.

 We have certified all legal compliance issues. The headaches have come from the detailed integration of services and in several cases moving targets on non-legal compliance certification expectations. I’m not at liberty to say which of these has caused us significant pain, but I can say with honesty that this is now with the certification houses involved. It remains to be seen if we pass this time, as this is not the first submission. I am however optimistic that the results will be positive, based on our testing, but one never knows sadly. Oh if only it were true that all tests were simple and laid down cleanly, but they aren't.

It would have been significantly easier to have gone a singular route in terms of integration of services, or not integrated them, or not complied with them all into the product directly, however, I do firmly believe it is the right decision for our customers in the long term.

I do accept and appreciate the full extent of the frustrations involved, it is something that sits with me every single day and waking hour. The last months have been the toughest ever for the team, and myself, being frank.

 The May target was set and I honestly believe we have done everything in our power to hit this. I do not blame any other partner for our pain, and wish only to get these products to market you so you can enjoy them.

I will not break any commitments/promises I have made to our technical partners in order to ship product. I feel this would be unethical and as such I accept the frustrations fairly towards Naim, and Naim only.

 I must take a couple of you to task, over your comments in the light of the above. We are working the hardest we ever have to get you these products as quickly as we can but without cutting corners or compromising quality.  Of course, we want to get those shipped asap and to suggest otherwise is foolish.

Trevor

Thanks Trevor, especially taking time to respond on Bank Holiday. I think this was all that was needed in the first place, an honest appraisal of the situation, as it is from the top dog.

Many have been critical of Naim, myself included, in part this came from the lack of communication which started to feel like a general lack of care toward the customer, it was only when we all kicked off that any news was forthcoming. Up until recently the Uniti progress thread was dormant for 2 months(with regard to Atom updates)even though we were to expect weekly updates. I think this then leads to wild speculation. 

Anyhow hope It all goes well and hopefully we will see the products soon.

 

Trevor... Thankyou for your response, it's clear you must have grown some new grey hairs over all this. 

Why didn't you tell us all this before...?? 

I'm an impatient type, googling for news is the most frustrating part of it all. 

Knowing what's gone on has now stopped me saying the word Naim through gritted teeth for the past 6 months. I now have your back...and am routing for you. 

Communication is key....

good luck, and we are all crossing our fingers for the next test results ��

Trevor

I appreciate the honesty and frankly as frustrated as I am this does go a long way in terms of somewhat placating the situation. 

Sadly the frustration has been compounded by the lack of comms, I have to hold Naim completely responsible for that. That said we know where we are to a degree now.

The forum members who claim to 'be in the know' - stop it, you have no clue, it's anecdotal and simply winds people up. As for substantial deposits or paid in full situations I also blame Naim for that too. Creating a supply and demand situation, a long queue, of eager buyers, then adding price increases is unacceptable and poor supply chain management.

Sort your Dearlers out too, some have not helped with this situation either.

Finally, a bi-monthly update would be prudent, even if not desirable news. 

Best regards

 

 

Naim have just made one mistake, to give a premature availability date. They are doing the right thing in not releasing a product until it's 100% as good as it can be.

They are not the only one guilty of this, Chord Electronics are also experiencing long unforeseen delays on their new products. I was told March for my Hugo 2 order.

Yes, it's disappointing but patience is a virtue and good things come to those who wait. 

 

Halloween Man posted:

Naim have just made one mistake, to give a premature availability date. They are doing the right thing in not releasing a product until it's 100% as good as it can be.

They are not the only one guilty of this, Chord Electronics are also experiencing long unforeseen delays on their new products. I was told March for my Hugo 2 order.

Yes, it's disappointing but patience is a virtue and good things come to those who wait.  

You haven't read the entire thread have you? Thanks for your input but you've missed the point entirely. 

Halloween Man posted:

Naim have just made one mistake, to give a premature availability date. They are doing the right thing in not releasing a product until it's 100% as good as it can be.

They are not the only one guilty of this, Chord Electronics are also experiencing long unforeseen delays on their new products. I was told March for my Hugo 2 order.

Yes, it's disappointing but patience is a virtue and good things come to those who wait. 

 

Nope........I feel you have missed the point.

The mistake they made was not keeping the consumer informed.

Good luck with your Hugo 2.

Having just read this thread for the first time, I have to say I'm a little disappointed, if not entirely surprised, by the negative, selfish, 'me, me, me' comments. To imply that the problems are all of Naim's own making, and that it somehow almost takes a perverse delight in not bringing these products to market when expected is quite ridiculous. 

I am looking forward to hearing an Atom as a potential replacement for my Unitiqute2, but whether this happens next month or next year really won't change my life one iota!!

Come on all you supposed Naim lovers and supporters - less of the selfish moaning, show a bit more support and understanding for a company that, for me, is the Mr Kipling of the audio world - it does produce extremely nice hifi products!!

Tim

Naim's one mistake was to allow orders to be taken before a definitive release date was assured.  Take this out of the equation and we would have a lot of "are we there yet?" posts but without the feeling  of being cheated somewhat. 

On the Roon forum a new OS called ROCK was announced but then Roon decided to change direction slightly and there was a 6 month delay. Roon simply said it will be ready when it's ready, sorry if we gave you the impression of an earlier release. End of. 

Undoubtedly Naim ( and its customers -fans to some extent really) will have learned from the whole fiasco.  I'm still not sure if the importance of communication has been taken fully on board however.

 The main communication thread still has a date in early March, I pointed out (over a month ago) that even though this thread was being updated it didn't look as if it was because the last postage date wasn't changing. 

 A biweekly update is an excellent idea  even if there is nothing to update other than say still waiting thanks for your patience. 

.sjb

Richard Dane posted:

HM, to be fair, while the delay is a disappointment, I think that the main area of complaint here is about wanting better communication from Naim.

Trevor has posted above explaining - as much as he can - why the Atom etc. have been delayed coming to market.

And that, Ladies & Gents is EXACTLY the point!

Sloop John B posted:

Naim's one mistake was to allow orders to be taken before a definitive release date was assured.  Take this out of the equation and we would have a lot of "are we there yet?" posts but without the feeling  of being cheated somewhat. 

On the Roon forum a new OS called ROCK was announced but then Roon decided to change direction slightly and there was a 6 month delay. Roon simply said it will be ready when it's ready, sorry if we gave you the impression of an earlier release. End of. 

Undoubtedly Naim ( and its customers -fans to some extent really) will have learned from the whole fiasco.  I'm still not sure if the importance of communication has been taken fully on board however.

 The main communication thread still has a date in early March, I pointed out (over a month ago) that even though this thread was being updated it didn't look as if it was because the last postage date wasn't changing. 

 A biweekly update is an excellent idea  even if there is nothing to update other than say still waiting thanks for your patience. 

.sjb

No, Naim's mistake was launching (and giving a release date) a product that was nowhere near complete.

 

Likes (1)
Richard Dane
×
×
×
×