BBC Radio Three "HD" on the Internet?

Dear Goon,

 

I think that is very well said. It is particularly gratifying that those who may not be able to get a consistent, strong VHF signal are catered for by the new R3 stream. I am over the moon with the Proms coming up in a few weeks!

 

Thanks for all the useful and wide ranging replies. As usual almost every post has something of value in it!

 

Now is just to feed this marvelous stream through a better DAC! But that may not happen before the Last Night Of The Proms 2012, though!

 

ATB from George

I do find the BBC R3 320K just so good.   Just listening to it now. 

 

Seeing Simon's post and Goon525 post that more could come.  Wow!

 

I don't have a recording deck at the moment.  I would not be too keen on doing something illegal but in the old days I thought it as OK to make tape copies personal use.   Maybe not OK now in the digital world!

Originally Posted by dave simpson:

Gents,

 

Any tips on how a yank can get BBC 3 at HD speeds here in the states using a SB Touch? I'm currently streaming the BBC at a whopping 48 kbps here in Dixie.

 

My email address is in my profile if it can't be discussed publically.

 

thanks,

 

dave 

I don't know if it will work in the states but I used itunes to listen to radio3hd and then right clicked and selected get info - the url is displayed on one of the tabs - copy and then go to mysqueezebox.com - and  add the url to your favourite

Thanks Bertie,

 

I'll try your tip but so far all high bit-rate URLs copied over and inserted revert back to a 48 kbps stream as soon as I start the stream.

 

The BBC uses a geo-IP based service to identify non-UK users such as myself which is very effective.

 

regards,

 

dave 

Surely the beeb [and HM Gov't] should let this go Global.

 

The British Council [ambassadors for Britain and British culture, which is the most multi-cultural of all] could find the necessary few thousands of pounds to let the World listen to our best music sender in what is apparently probably the best quality. Even our EU colleagues might gain an insight into Britain from such a move, quite as much as the more far flung territories ...

 

Only a few Warheads wasted in Iraq, or Afghanistan would have paid for this!

 

ATB from George

AFAIK the 48k feed is global.  I guess the question is - what is the cost of the additional infrastructure to provide 320k globally?  Also, what percentage of global listeners would appreciate the difference?  Maybe an opportunity for BBC Worldwide?

Last two posts exactly ,IMO.

 

Sack the the tone deaf Terry Wogan, and the pointless Jonathan Ross [etc], and get something really important out there. We cannot do Imperial Politics these days, but for the cost of a lot less than the Monarchy or such idiocies as the Olympics, or the Miillenium Dome, the UK can remain a beacon of Civilisation and Culture.

 

People don't starve to death in the UK, and we should remember our blessings. Those who have abandoned the Old Country may well be coming home from Europe and the wider World before long I suspect. It may not be as great as once, but it will be a lot better than anarchy.

 

ATB from George

When we do update IPV6 and hopefully move away from this antiquated  and incredibly inefficient session based web radio and move to multicast which allows true network 1 to many streaming. The BBC will only need one server and data feed for each streamed channel bandwidth (ie highdef, regular and mobile) that one or everyone in the world can listen to at once. It then becomes a matter of the listener's ISP supporting multicast along with its level 1/2 service provider supporting multicast at the peering points.

This way (assuming the irritating rights management is circumvented) web radio can stream non lossy data or even hidef around the world  and  will make 320kbps AAC look retro and  like the DAB or AM  of web radio.

Just as an illustration some organisations have upgraded thier WAN to support multicast so the Olympcs TV feeds can be broadcast streamed, with out relying on session based video feeds from the BBC or equivalent for each viewer which would otherwise kill thier networks.

Originally Posted by dave simpson:

Thanks Bertie,

 

I'll try your tip but so far all high bit-rate URLs copied over and inserted revert back to a 48 kbps stream as soon as I start the stream.

 

The BBC uses a geo-IP based service to identify non-UK users such as myself which is very effective.

 

regards,

 

dave 

This can be circumvented by the use of a proxy server and a UPnP server that delivers internet radio like Asset or run the stream on a PC. Try a Google on "Expat Shield" for one example of a free one; it certainly has no problem with the amount of data in the R3 HD stream - I've been using it to watch the BBC TV coverage of the European football champs. It's not at all technical to implement.

No.  But I have read MacDonald's "Nutrition Calculator for the Big Mac" and also what goes on in BBC Radio 3 FM's Optimod processor:

 

"Orban's OPTIMOD series audio processors pull in larger audience shares with a louder, cleaner and more attractive signal. Whether your signal is AM, FM, HF/shortwave, conventional television, DTV, DAB or Webcasting, OPTIMOD processing will shape your sound for maximum reach, appeal and long-term listenability."

It is probably impostant that I should make clear certain facts, because I am afraid that a certain party has become confused about things that have allegedly been heard on my system in my own accommodation.

 

Before the start of this thread about a fortnight ago, I had never ever used the Radio Three "HD" feed before. Hence the questions earlier in the thread as I attempted to get it to work. No person could possibly have listened to internet Radio Three "HD" feed on my equipment in my house before the start of this thread! 

 

It is certainly true that I had a very nice Leak Troughline VHF tuner at my previous accommodation, and the quality of the performance of it was very nice with a small roof top aerial.  However, I have never had the old tuner and internet Radio Three "HD" feed working at the same time. It should be clear from my posts at the begining of this thread that I hardly expected internet radio to be particularly good, quite simply because I expected it [without having actually trying it out] to be in the same quality league as DAB.

 

Thus any person who claims to have made a direct comparison of the new Radio Three "HD" Stream with the normal Radio Three VHF broadcast at my residence on my system is to claiming to have heard a system that was not at the time in existence as reported, in the first place. It is a report that is impossible as the events did not happen. Quite a few friends, however, did listen to music at my previous house using the Leak Troughline to receive VHF. I don't think any were disappointed with the quality.

 

Of course it is possible that he has heard this comparison at some other place in the UK, but not last October or November as reported, because the Radio Three "HD" stream was off-line for several months after the initial experiment ended with the end of the 2011 BBC Proms season in September of that year.

 

I had refrained from posting about this before now, but given that a Forum member is claiming that he has heard my set in a comparison that was not ever set up or even possible at the claimed time, I believe that it is important to set the record straight, as this member is using this supposed report as a way of damning the new "HD" feed for Radio Three in a way that is actually untrue. I don't like to make such an allegation, but it is time to face this one off.

 

Your sincerely George Johnson.

Frank,

 

You are incorrect in your recollection.

 

At the time there was no Radio Three on HD. It finished in September 2011 with the end of the BBC Prom Concert Season, and was only re-instated half a year or so later after a campaign to get it back.

 

At the time myiTunes arrangement had the internet  radio facility disabled. This was only restored in the last fortnight as will become clear when reading through this thread as someone explained to me how to do this.

 

I think we tried and failed to listen to [Polish] RHM Classics on your laptop through the system, but certainly your laptop was working very badly for sound in any case with DVDs as there was microphone feedback resulting a terrible effect on the Film "Day Of The Jackal." ... I don't think that the internet radio would work at all in the event as the broadband connection was too slow for even a low definition rendition of RFM Classics as it went. I hope that jogs your memory ...

 

Perhaps that promise we made to each other about not posting on each others' threads was in fact a good idea.  May we re-instate it after this, please?

 

The time of listening to the Leak was much later, when we listened to Choral Evensong from Hereford Cathedral at the beginning of Lent. I suspect that the date would be easy enough to find as I think you posted about the effect on a thread of mine about the ESL 57s. But you have certainly never heard internet radio work in my system as prior to this new residence. I never had a good enough broadband for it to possibly work!

 

Yours sincerely, George Johnson

 

Perhaps that promise we made to each other about not posting on each others' threads was in fact a good idea.  May we re-instate it after this, please?


From my post, immediately above! Please read my posts thoroughly before replying.


Your memory is failing, and you are confused. Till now I have never used Radio Three HS from the internet. That is what this thread is about! I was not even remotely interested in the notion before.


Please do not try to start an email correspondence with me. There is nothing I have to say to you, so consequently you will be a blocked sender whose communication, naturally enough, will go straight to spam if you do try


Yours sincerely, George Johnson

Originally Posted by Chris Shorter:
Originally Posted by dave simpson:

Thanks Bertie,

 

I'll try your tip but so far all high bit-rate URLs copied over and inserted revert back to a 48 kbps stream as soon as I start the stream.

 

The BBC uses a geo-IP based service to identify non-UK users such as myself which is very effective.

 

regards,

 

dave 

This can be circumvented by the use of a proxy server and a UPnP server that delivers internet radio like Asset or run the stream on a PC. Try a Google on "Expat Shield" for one example of a free one; it certainly has no problem with the amount of data in the R3 HD stream - I've been using it to watch the BBC TV coverage of the European football champs. It's not at all technical to implement.

Good idea...I thought about using a proxy last night but didn't have time to research my options. Thanks for the tip. I'll take an in-depth look over the weekend.

Originally Posted by Frank F:

This thread is quite comical with all the talk about 320 and 500 kbs.  What DAC are people using and what will that deal with??

 

I listened to George's FM tuner and then BBC Radio 3 HD from his Internet in October/November with himself using his set and we both agreed that was a no contest win for VHF. Yes, the internet based system is good for those that cannot get it on VHF but please get real.

 

FF

Frank,

 

This discussion thread may resolve my (and other's) problem for free, quality music and sound so we need it to continue.

 

I live on the side of a hill with the nearest radio towers over 35 miles away. Distance combined with no line-of-sight means my Nat 101 even with an outdoor aerial gets nothing but one decent NPR station here in the US. (and that one station's broadcast tower just happens to sit on the back side of my hill of course) 

 

Even though the sound quality is superb with live broadcasts I still have audible levels of hiss louder than background levels and it's all rather moot since my 101s tuner head died. That's a 600 hundred dollar repair bill and a trip across the Atlantic to Salisbury just to get it back for picking up one good but noisy FM station.

 

Streaming is my only sensible option (moving to a new home just for a more friendly FM locale surely isn't ;-)

 

regards,

 

dave

Dear Dave,

 

I hope that you find it as satisfactory as I am, now it is set up nicely. 

 

As I said earlier, I doubt if the case is yet made to actually give up a good VHF set, but decent quality internet radio is now competitive going on my experiences with Radio Three and Radio Four in the high quality streams.

 

Please do let us know how you get on with it. That will add to the value of this thread!

 

Best of luck with it from George. 

Thanks George,

 

I'm able to pick up 320KB streams from all over the world with my SBT, I'm just trying to maximize the pleasure with BBC 3 in particular as their musical offerings are outstanding IMO. Your thread is the perfect vehicle for me to get assistance!

 

Thanks for starting this discussion!

 

dave

 

 

 

 

Forgetting about the 15kHz filter and problems inherent in FM transmission, there are two very different philosophies at play between the two Radio 3 streams:

  • On the HD digital stream, the honest attempt by the AAC codec to deliver the best quality sound at the bandwidth
  • On the FM stream, the Optimod's deliberate AGC, compression, limiting and general perversion of the sound to improve "listenability" for portable and car radios

Still, for the worst possible sound quality there's always Classic FM, which has the full Optimod treatment, giving about 10dB of dynamic range.

On the matter of which is the lesser of two evils...

 

I'd rather give up a bit of VHF's sound quality (which only has the potential to outshine streaming if a live broadcasts perhaps) for a huge increase in stations and musical variety with almost silent backgrounds with streaming. The trade-off is a no-brainer in my case.

Jono, I agree, and Radio 6 should have priority as this is not even on VHF FM and sounds dire on DAB.

 

Then PLEASE let's have some PCM web radio streams, we really deserve better than lossy codecs from the mp3 era. Perhaps a regular 1.4Mbps linear stream for Radio 3 and 320kbps AAC-LC for the other radio stations. Now that would be worth having....

 

For now at least the Optimod  processor doesn't audibly compress Radio 3, unlike the spoilt Classic FM (in fact would be interested to see what  Optimod does on R3.. From what i can see on the web there is subtle compression on BBC3 for different times of day and programming, but genereally provides 22dB of dynamic range.. which for Radio is pretty good and far more than most consumer radios can handle), and as such BBC Radio 3 on VHF FM can be jaw dropping on live concerts.. I assume the Optimod is switched off to minimum compression ...Roll on the Proms... 

 

 

PS, just been looking into the Frauenhofer AAC white papers and unless the AAC is used in 'line mode' normalisation and varying degrees of compression are part of the encoding algorithm process. I have yet to find out what parameters are used on the BBC system... It would appear the codec's DSP does what the Optimod does for the radio feeds. I wonder if it's because of the inbuilt AAC processing that the BBC don't do any Pre processing. The digital signal is already somewhat downgraded by the current Mutiple upsamples and down samples in the chain, and so care is perhaps applied to keep further processiNg to a minimum.

It's very difficult for the rest of us to know where the truth lies in this extraordinary exchange between Frank and George. But even if they DID hear the R3 HD stream whenever it was last autumn, does the fact that it was transmitted via George's PC - which inevitably has a number of sound quality reduction devices incorporated - mean that it wouldn't in any case compare with the SQ attainable by those of us streaming directly into a Naim device, in my case an SU?

At the time there was no Radio Three on HD. It finished in September 2011 with the end of the BBC Prom Concert Season, and was only re-instated half a year or so later after a campaign to get it back.

 

George, I think you are getting your years mixed up. It was after the experiment during the last week of the 2010 Proms that the HD feed was not available for several months before reappearing. It's certainly been continuously available during the period since the 2011 Proms.

 

Chris

Originally Posted by Goon525:

It's very difficult for the rest of us to know where the truth lies in this extraordinary exchange between Frank and George. But even if they DID hear the R3 HD stream whenever it was last autumn, does the fact that it was transmitted via George's PC - which inevitably has a number of sound quality reduction devices incorporated - mean that it wouldn't in any case compare with the SQ attainable by those of us streaming directly into a Naim device, in my case an SU?

I can't remember what DAC George has, but assuming he was using an asynchronous interface (USB or re-clocked SPDIF) the PC wouldn't have made any difference. 

Originally Posted by Noogle:
Originally Posted by Goon525:

It's very difficult for the rest of us to know where the truth lies in this extraordinary exchange between Frank and George. But even if they DID hear the R3 HD stream whenever it was last autumn, does the fact that it was transmitted via George's PC - which inevitably has a number of sound quality reduction devices incorporated - mean that it wouldn't in any case compare with the SQ attainable by those of us streaming directly into a Naim device, in my case an SU?

I can't remember what DAC George has, but assuming he was using an asynchronous interface (USB or re-clocked SPDIF) the PC wouldn't have made any difference. 

Aune.

Originally Posted by JeremyB:
Originally Posted by Bertie Norman:
Originally Posted by dave simpson:

Gents,

 

Any tips on how a yank can get BBC 3 at HD speeds here in the states using a SB Touch? I'm currently streaming the BBC at a whopping 48 kbps here in Dixie.

 

My email address is in my profile if it can't be discussed publically.

 

thanks,

 

dave 

I don't know if it will work in the states but I used itunes to listen to radio3hd and then right clicked and selected get info - the url is displayed on one of the tabs - copy and then go to mysqueezebox.com - and  add the url to your favourite

The very best way is to lease or own a server in a uk data centre and run an open VPN server on that. It uses ssh and is exactly as if you are in the UK with a bit of extra delay. The next best way is a commercial vpn service. Just web search for VPN uk. Make sure the service supports ssh preferably with no proxy (some uk streaming services check for a proxy which is in itself not secure and can be traced to the proxy user) open VPN does all this. I use the really great Velocity VPN user interface which is well worth the 6 US dollars after the trial period expires, there are free alternatives which I don't think are as good.

Once you connect the VPN, start lms and check advanced- information and you should see the ip address of LMS  is the VPN address in the uk instead of your local ISP. The uk streamer sees a uk registered ip address and obviously cannot see your ip address because all signaling used by the vpn connection is strongly encrypted.

Thanks Jermey,

 

Great idea regarding a UK VPN. I'm really liking this and will investigate further!

 

regards,

 

dave

Bertie, a true forward proxy  can use public  address translation and is not traceable, and ofcourse many public facing servers use reverse proxies the other end to hide thier addressing behind the external address for security and load balancing.

As you say an alternate is to tunnel across a network by creating a Virtual Private Network, where you route a local private  address to the remote public address, in this case a UK registered RIPE IP address. But you must ensure the source IP address of the tunnel is private ( starts with 10 or 172.16-31 or 192.168) otherwise all you have done is create a routing ladder using public addresses which is useless for this purpose. You can validate this by doing a Traceroute to the remote address.

 

For Geolocation you dont need to encrypt your tunnel or support SSH/SSH2, that is more for for security or to prevent eavesdropping purposes. Remember using encryption will increase the data rate required for the transport.  The key thing is to have changed the source IP address field in the TCP or UDP packet, and have a mechanism to return packets to your ultimate source address.

Simon

 

 

Oh dear, sorry to have upset you Jeremy. Many do find my postings useful/helpful and have personally told me so, so if you don't i suggest you don't read them [and I was responding to Bertie] and we can all be happy together

 

BTW you could not be more wrong with your perception of VPNs and streaming services...and you might be suprised which of my VPNs pr HYPNs you are using or taking advantage of  and you don't even know about it...  and when I retire I'd be more than happy to talk about it...  really .

 

My advice was all about Geolocation and how it works - I know as I have put a few of  the systems in. So if you want to bypass it you could do worse than follow some of my suggestions. I am sure there are otherways, but there is lots of snake oil and mumbo jumbo  spoken about it and it really is quite simple to do what is required. Encryption is not required. Lets keep it simple so people don't end up buying service they really don't need.

 

PS you should really be running at least SSH2 if you are worried about encryption but that is a complete red herring to streaimning 320kbps BBC Radio3 ...... kind of my point really.

 

Cheers

 

Simon

 

I use WiTopia which works worldwide and in particular has several servers in the US and Europe.

It is necessary to pay a fee but it is only about 4$ /month.It uses encrypted tunneling

 

I use it particularly to view TV programs from those locations for which it works flawlessly. 

 

[Simon my Client IP in both the UK and US starts with 10. so I assume that meets your criteria]

 

regards

geoff

These people look interesting

 

https://www.vpnuk.info/orders.html

 

And you appear to be able to have upto 3  tunnel exit points for your VPN at differnt points around the world. Could be a good solution for HD Tracks.

 

Geoff absolutely - ie you start the tunnel within your private address range of your LAN. Yes most commercial tunnelling services offer encryption as that is what people tend to use the VPNs for. There is no issue with it other than the data transferred is larger than if it were an unencrypted tunnel, but 320kbps is pretty low anyway so shouldnt be an issue - might become more noticable with video.

Jeremy, I don't want to get bogged down, but again you are talking about a very specific example, not generally and I am sorry your description seems a little unclear to me, especially the bit about the class A address.

 

A tunnel  with an IP address is a routing encapsulation path. For a single PC you cam bind it logically at your PC, otherwise your router will need to have the address of the tunnels network.. Especially if an NDX is to use this, and then you will need to create a routing metric so certain traffic goes via the tunnel or alltraffic goes the tunnel.

The reason you use a private address such as 10. or 192.168. Is that it has no meaning for geolocation. 

Therefore for geolocation to work the last public address to your remote device must be in the geo area, in this case for the BBC a RIPE UK address. You can then have Mutiple private (10, 172.168. 192.168) network addresses in your route to your client, ie a class A address (10) by your tunnel service provider and then a class C (192.168) for your LAN. Trace route will show this.

An alternative is point to point, but the remote client (your PC or device) must support point to point tunnels which MACs and PCs do by sometimes running clients so you do a virtual binding in the TCP/IP stack on the client (often used for encrypted consumer VPNs or corporate remote access VPNs) , but I don't think an NDX or NDS does.

 

I am sure you know what you are talking about. But for anyone else here is a list of beginners technical descriptions of tunnels, rather than vague in precise marketing terms sometimes used on WWW wikis that cause more harm than good. GRE tunnels is a good place to start, and they work with an NDX if your router can be suitably configured and you have a remote service offering to peer with the tunnel.

 

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tec...t_protocol_home.html

 

Can we leave it now on this thread so we don't take over?

We can start a seperate 'how do tunnels work for a naim network player' elsewhere if we want.

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

 

Therefore for geolocation to work the last public address to your remote device must be in the geo area, in this case for the BBC a RIPE UK address. You can then have Mutiple private (10, 172.168. 192.168) network addresses in your route to your client, ie a class A address (10) by your tunnel service provider and then a class C (192.168) for your LAN

 

How does a thread about Beethovens Symphonies, or at least their pricing, end up here?

Err... I'm sure George and the rest of us are already fully au fait with the trivialities of VPN, tunneling and IP addresses. Or possibly not...

 

Still, I've tried the HD Radio 3 stream via iTunes which I hadn't realised existed up till now. And it is good! So thank you George for the original thread for turning me onto this.

 

Regards

 

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