Blimey....

alan33 posted:
Bob the Builder posted:

And what in god's name is a picosecond? 

It’s a millionth of a microsecond, a millionth of a millionth of a second... it’s fast. When I was young, it was faster than fast: picosecond laser pulses were just over the horizon. Now, it’s a million times slower than the new fast... it’s a million attoseconds, and an attosecond is about the shortest timescale we can access experimentally with really really fast lasers. The poster who challenged the validity of the assertion about kilovolt per picosecond risetimes in conventional electronics, such as the Statement, had good reason imho... A picosecond is a really short time... Blimey doesn’t begin to describe it!

Regards alan

So……blink and it is gone, right? That fast?

Blimey you are not hanging around Graeme and I will be interested in your thoughts with the 272/555 and Tab 10s once the plumbers have cleared off.

Several months ago when I was looking for a PSU for my 272 I auditioned the XPS2 (unit about 9 years old) and an ex demo XP5xs, not much in it for me plus the ex demo XP5xs was cheaper plus almost new so opted for this and saved a few quid.

One day I will try the 555 but the wife wants a caravan up in the North Yorkshire moors next year so the 555 will have to wait.

For now my 272/XP5xs/250/Tab10s is the best sound my room has witnessed

 

Innocent Bystander posted:

I’m a bit concerned about some of the claims said to have been made by Naim staff during factory visits.

Last week there was the assertion that a Statement system consumes £600 worth of electricity quiescent consumption if left on. Ignoring the fact that the existence of a standby mode using only about £1 PA had been overlooked, by my calcs based on a typical electricity cost of 13p/unit in the UK, a stereo Statement system according to published specs would only consume about half the declared amount - so either the claim was wrong or the published specs are wrong.

Now this claim of 9000W/pS. Expressed in typical units for amplifier measurement, this equates to 268 000 000V/μS (or in different terms, power can rise from zero to 9000W in 1/50 000 000th of one cycle of the highest frequency sound a human can hear - indeed, that would be superlative performance in a microwave transmitter amp!). That is an incredible rise time, and whilst I am not in a position to say it is not posssible, I do have to wonder if the unit# may hav3 got mixd up somewhere...

I do think that if there are exaggerations being made by Naim staff, or mishearings by visitors, they should be addressed in order not to mislead, in either direction - and should my scepticism regarding the slew rate be unjustified I wholeheartedly apologise. Perhaps Naim could step in here for the record on these points. ( @Phil Harris&nbsp

A picosecond is a million millionth of a second. Digital circuits for Ethernet and computers easily work at 1 Gbs (1 thousand millionth of a second). The rise time of such signals is easily 1 thousandth of that. Should we be surprised if audio circuits respond as  quickly - not really.

The information provided is not about being able to hear a rise time, but about the amount of energy that can be delivered to fuel the Amplifier for very short periods of time. The energy is the product of the wattage and the time rather than watts divided by time as suggested above.  I think we all get the car analogy of what more horsepower does for you. 

It’s seems that the running cost of Statement also surprises some people.

Phil

Adam Meredith posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
DynFan160 posted:

Blimey is not a word in the American dictionary...

I’t is a call to be blinded.

SO - the Gro'cers A'postro'phe has became self-aware and turned against its creator's.

'!

The remaining hope for humanity was that , like time on a stopped clock, it would occasionally stumble into the correct position.

Paradoxically, those who are bewildered by them retain just enough knowledge to get things consistently wrong.

Yep, the iPad has a language rule of its own: corrupt whatever those non-American speakers try to type! 

Filipe posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:

I’m a bit concerned about some of the claims said to have been made by Naim staff during factory visits.

Last week there was the assertion that a Statement system consumes £600 worth of electricity quiescent consumption if left on. Ignoring the fact that the existence of a standby mode using only about £1 PA had been overlooked, by my calcs based on a typical electricity cost of 13p/unit in the UK, a stereo Statement system according to published specs would only consume about half the declared amount - so either the claim was wrong or the published specs are wrong.

Now this claim of 9000W/pS. Expressed in typical units for amplifier measurement, this equates to 268 000 000V/μS (or in different terms, power can rise from zero to 9000W in 1/50 000 000th of one cycle of the highest frequency sound a human can hear - indeed, that would be superlative performance in a microwave transmitter amp!). That is an incredible rise time, and whilst I am not in a position to say it is not posssible, I do have to wonder if the unit# may hav3 got mixd up somewhere...

I do think that if there are exaggerations being made by Naim staff, or mishearings by visitors, they should be addressed in order not to mislead, in either direction - and should my scepticism regarding the slew rate be unjustified I wholeheartedly apologise. Perhaps Naim could step in here for the record on these points. ( @Phil Harris&nbsp

A picosecond is a million millionth of a second. Digital circuits for Ethernet and computers easily work at 1 Gbs (1 thousand millionth of a second). The rise time of such signals is easily 1 thousandth of that. Should we be surprised if audio circuits respond as  quickly - not really.

The information provided is not about being able to hear a rise time, but about the amount of energy that can be delivered to fuel the Amplifier for very short periods of time. The energy is the product of the wattage and the time rather than watts divided by time as suggested above.  I think we all get the car analogy of what more horsepower does for you. 

It’s seems that the running cost of Statement also surprises some people.

Phil

Indeed not anything about being able to hear a rise time, but the ability of the transistors to switch that fast and the reservoir capacitors to discharge that fast  - which based on my knowledge of electronics seems unlikely, however I don’t pretend to be au fait with Naim’s design and whatever specific components they use, so merely express my incredulity and concern that something inaccurate may have been said or heard.

And my comment about electricity was not the running cost, but the idle cost, which did not tally with the advertised information, so if correct the published spec needs changing.

Innocent Bystander posted:
Filipe posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:

I’m a bit concerned about some of the claims said to have been made by Naim staff during factory visits.

Last week there was the assertion that a Statement system consumes £600 worth of electricity quiescent consumption if left on. Ignoring the fact that the existence of a standby mode using only about £1 PA had been overlooked, by my calcs based on a typical electricity cost of 13p/unit in the UK, a stereo Statement system according to published specs would only consume about half the declared amount 

 

Indeed not anything about being able to hear a rise time, but the ability of the transistors to switch that fast and the reservoir capacitors to discharge that fast  - which based on my knowledge of electronics seems unlikely, however I don’t pretend to be au fait with Naim’s design and whatever specific components they use, so merely express my incredulity and concern that something inaccurate may have been said or heard.

And my comment about electricity was not the running cost, but the idle cost, which did not tally with the advertised information, so if correct the published spec needs changing.

Taking the running cost remark you made above. You decided that “keeping the Statement powered up” was to be interpreted as the quiescent power consumption being about twice the advertised figure and have made accusation about misleading specification. I doubt Jason was thinking about your interpretation. 

Jason was questioned about the picosecond, and was clear about the statement he made. As a statement about a power supply one does not even need to involve transistors as you have. It is essentially about the delivery of a quantity of charge at a fixed voltage for a very short duration. I can appreciate that the Statement power supply really can deliver energy much better than others.

Phil

Filipe posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
Filipe posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:

I’m a bit concerned about some of the claims said to have been made by Naim staff during factory visits.

Last week there was the assertion that a Statement system consumes £600 worth of electricity quiescent consumption if left on. Ignoring the fact that the existence of a standby mode using only about £1 PA had been overlooked, by my calcs based on a typical electricity cost of 13p/unit in the UK, a stereo Statement system according to published specs would only consume about half the declared amount 

 

Indeed not anything about being able to hear a rise time, but the ability of the transistors to switch that fast and the reservoir capacitors to discharge that fast  - which based on my knowledge of electronics seems unlikely, however I don’t pretend to be au fait with Naim’s design and whatever specific components they use, so merely express my incredulity and concern that something inaccurate may have been said or heard.

And my comment about electricity was not the running cost, but the idle cost, which did not tally with the advertised information, so if correct the published spec needs changing.

Taking the running cost remark you made above. You decided that “keeping the Statement powered up” was to be interpreted as the quiescent power consumption being about twice the advertised figure and have made accusation about misleading specification. I doubt Jason was thinking about your interpretation. 

Jason was questioned about the picosecond, and was clear about the statement he made. As a statement about a power supply one does not even need to involve transistors as you have. It is essentially about the delivery of a quantity of charge at a fixed voltage for a very short duration. I can appreciate that the Statement power supply really can deliver energy much better than others.

Phil

 I voiced my concerns, and have suggested it is for Phil Harris if he sees it to determine whether any response or clarification is appropriate from Naim. As you seem to like to have the last word I will leave it at that - in any case having already made my points I have nothing to add or to argue...

 Bystander posted:
Filipe posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
Filipe posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:

I’m a bit concerned about some of the claims said to have been made by Naim staff during factory visits.

Last week there was the assertion that a Statement system consumes £600 worth of electricity quiescent consumption if left on. Ignoring the fact that the existence of a standby mode using only about £1 PA had been overlooked, by my calcs based on a typical electricity cost of 13p/unit in the UK, a stereo Statement system according to published specs would only consume about half the declared amount 

 

Indeed not anything about being able to hear a rise time, but the ability of the transistors to switch that fast and the reservoir capacitors to discharge that fast  - which based on my knowledge of electronics seems unlikely, however I don’t pretend to be au fait with Naim’s design and whatever specific components they use, so merely express my incredulity and concern that something inaccurate may have been said or heard.

And my comment about electricity was not the running cost, but the idle cost, which did not tally with the advertised information, so if correct the published spec needs changing.

Taking the running cost remark you made above. You decided that “keeping the Statement powered up” was to be interpreted as the quiescent power consumption being about twice the advertised figure and have made accusation about misleading specification. I doubt Jason was thinking about your interpretation. 

Jason was questioned about the picosecond, and was clear about the statement he made. As a statement about a power supply one does not even need to involve transistors as you have. It is essentially about the delivery of a quantity of charge at a fixed voltage for a very short duration. I can appreciate that the Statement power supply really can deliver energy much better than others.

Phil

 I voiced my concerns, and have suggested it is for Phil Harris if he sees it to determine whether any response or clarification is appropriate from Naim. As you seem to like to have the last word I will leave it at that - in any case having already made my points I have nothing to add or to argue...

Moderated Post: Jonn, I've removed this GIF as it causes issues for some members. Please could members try not to post repetitive or animated GIFs, strobing images etc..

OK. Everything warmed up nicely and I have a free living room.

Having had moderately low level background music on for an ‘on and off’ listen (Tubular Balls, Buenos Hermanos, Buena Vista SC Live) I was aware of more palpable presence & tactility, greater and subjectively faster - dynamic swings; quiet/loud, start/stop - that kind of thing.

Listening seriously now to this: because I know it really well and wanted to assess timbres, transparency and separation. The addition of the 555PS makes the pair at once musically ‘together’ but also discernable as individual players. Each occupies their own space...and that ‘space’ (of the recording studio) has really grown in size, width, height and depth. It really is a transformational musical experience - like they are playing for me, in my room (the kick drum has just given me a start!). 

The little Tablette 10’s really are the gift that keeps on giving too...ridiculously good in every way but the bass performance is particularly astonishing from such a tiny sealed enclosure.

Looking forward to the evening ahead.

G

 

 

 

GraemeH posted:

OK. Everything warmed up nicely and I have a free living room.

Having had moderately low level background music on for an ‘on and off’ listen (Tubular Balls, Buenos Hermanos, Buena Vista SC Live) I was aware of more palpable presence & tactility, greater and subjectively faster - dynamic swings; quiet/loud, start/stop - that kind of thing.

Listening seriously now to this: because I know it really well and wanted to assess timbres, transparency and separation. The addition of the 555PS makes the pair at once musically ‘together’ but also discernable as individual players. Each occupies their own space...and that ‘space’ (of the recording studio) has really grown in size, width, height and depth. It really is a transformational musical experience - like they are playing for me, in my room (the kick drum has just given me a start!). 

The little Tablette 10’s really are the gift that keeps on giving too...ridiculously good in every way but the bass performance is particularly astonishing from such a tiny sealed enclosure.

Looking forward to the evening ahead.

G

The bit of your post I have highlighted is very much my experience of adding the 555 except you have expressed it far better than I did in my Blimey thread. It is a lovely combination of separation but playing as as one. You can hear each instrument and voice more distinctly but you get with wonderful sense of musicians in harmony (in the wider sense of the word) with each other.

The Tablette 10s appear to love a 555 in charge of the source!

Timo posted:
HiFiman posted:

One day I will try the 555 but the wife wants a caravan up in the North Yorkshire moors next year so the 555 will have to wait.

I hope you can at least negogiate a Muso for the caravan in the moors... 

I have a plan, the scenery at Rosedale is spectacular and beats HiFi at any level but the wife is understanding so a little something within the caravan shouldn't be an issue.

Innocent Bystander posted:

I’m a bit concerned about some of the claims said to have been made by Naim staff during factory visits.

Last week there was the assertion that a Statement system consumes £600 worth of electricity quiescent consumption if left on. Ignoring the fact that the existence of a standby mode using only about £1 PA had been overlooked, by my calcs based on a typical electricity cost of 13p/unit in the UK, a stereo Statement system according to published specs would only consume about half the declared amount - so either the claim was wrong or the published specs are wrong.

Now this claim of 9000W/pS. Expressed in typical units for amplifier measurement, this equates to 268 000 000V/μS (or in different terms, power can rise from zero to 9000W in 1/50 000 000th of one cycle of the highest frequency sound a human can hear - indeed, that would be superlative performance in a microwave transmitter amp!). That is an incredible rise time, and whilst I am not in a position to say it is not posssible, I do have to wonder if the unit# may hav3 got mixd up somewhere...

I do think that if there are exaggerations being made by Naim staff, or mishearings by visitors, they should be addressed in order not to mislead, in either direction - and should my scepticism regarding the slew rate be unjustified I wholeheartedly apologise. Perhaps Naim could step in here for the record on these points. ( @Phil Harris&nbsp

Hi Guys,

Taking the queries raised I thought I'd get the answers directly from R&D...

Zero to 9kW...

We’ve said 9kW in a millionth of a second but it’s nothing like 9kW in a picosecond. It’s a factor of a million times incorrect … so someone has misheard and then reinterpreted in picoseconds instead of microseconds.

[My note : This could have been someone here that has mistaken this and given it as information I guess - I'll make sure that the sales guys have this pointed out to them.]

To achieve 9kW into 1ohm the output needs to rise to 94V peak into a 1ohm load - it can supply 100A into 1ohm for short durations. The slew rate of the amplifier itself is >300V/uS or in other words the output speed is the same as going from 0 volts to 300 volts in a millionth of a second.

If we simplify we can say the output needs to go to 100V,
The output can respond at a slew rate greater than 300V in 1 millionth of a second,
Therefore to go to 100V takes 1/3rd of a millionth of a second,
Therefore the Statement will do 0 to 9kW in less than a millionth of a second.

(This is on a test bench under test conditions.)

Running costs...

Statement is 0.3W per box in standby i.e. 1/3W for each amp and 1/3W for the pre-amp so 0.9W for the complete statement amplifier. So at £0.13 per unit of electricity it will cost £1/year to run.

With the amplifier left on full time it will take 55W + 100W + 100W for the pre-amp and power amps respectively, so at £0.13 per unit of electricity it will cost £290 per year to run.

[My note : Obviously if you live in a cold climate this can be off-set towards the heating bill ]

Phil

Bit of advice Graeme that you may already be aware of.

I normally pay attention to cable dressing but am not fanatical about it. However with the 555, the system seems to be far more susceptible to cable dressing. I was just listening to Philosopher's Stone by Van Morrison, an album I know well. It was definitely better with the 555 compared to my previous PS. I however felt that it should be even better judging from what I had heard with other albums I know well. There was a slight smearing for want of a better word that I knew should not be there.

I then checked the cable dressing. As the Burndies relax in their connected positions, they sag a little over time. The Burndies from the 555 had sagged so that one of them was touching the radiator behind the Fraim and the two Burndies were touching each other and one of them was touching the SL interconnect. Gently manipulating them so there was no touching and they were all hanging freely, I listened again. Boy, what a difference. The smearing was gone, the detail and separation were back and this album sounds sublime as I knew it should.

So Graeme, when you do settle down to listen, double check your cable dressing. It make a real difference.

Been there and got the T-Shirt as they say Nigel. I try to take a sane view of cable dressing these days so as not to become overly neurotic about it. Othrwise every time my mood is affecting how I’m enjoying the music I’d be round the back convinced something must be touching something!

Fit (sensibly tidy) and forget is my mantra these days.

Thanks though,

G

GraemeH posted:

Been there and got the T-Shirt as they say Nigel. I try to take a sane view of cable dressing these days so as not to become overly neurotic about it. Othrwise every time my mood is affecting how I’m enjoying the music I’d be round the back convinced something must be touching something!

Fit (sensibly tidy) and forget is my mantra these days.

Thanks though,

G

Now that's definitely sensible advice! The tweakers will expel you from the club though, Graeme

An update.  After extended listening over the xmas period I came to the conclusion that something was not quite right. A slight softness, loss of sparkle if you will, coupled to a flattening and polarised L&R ‘shut-in’ quality became apparent on albums I know very well. It kind of crept up on me over hours of listening and initially I thought something was going ‘off’ with the newish Proac Tab 10.

So, I did the ‘take the 555PS out and see what you are missing’ thing...except the bare 272 sounded much better, more open, tranparent and bristling with musicality again. A bit less ‘meaty’ perhaps - but far more enjoyable.

It may be that the 2006 555PS needs a service but I do wonder whether the 272 is really constructed for DR technology to get the best out of it.

Bottom line is my excellent dealer is getting me a new XPS DR which I think will be a better match.

Will report further in due course.

G

Graeme, it just goes to show there is no substitute for lengthy home demos.

You may be right in that the 11/12 year old 555PS might be in need of a recap/service, as others have had great results with the 272/555PS combo (HH) but we also all have our own personal preferences.

Let us know how it goes with the XPSDR.

nigelb posted:

Graeme, it just goes to show there is no substitute for lengthy home demos.

You may be right in that the 11/12 year old 555PS might be in need of a recap/service, as others have had great results with the 272/555PS combo (HH) but we also all have our own personal preferences.

Let us know how it goes with the XPSDR.

HH has the ‘DR’ 555PS though.

G

When I added the XP5xs to my 272 things really opened up and just recently I was contemplating a none DR 555 for my next upgrade as I cannot stretch to a 555DR so your comments regarding the none 555 are interesting. Personally I don't think a service is due on your 555 as the service period should be every 15 years on power supplies.

On the Naim website they recommend XP5xs for the 272, to me the XP5xs is a very nice upgrade and I may just stay put.

GraemeH posted:
nigelb posted:

Graeme, it just goes to show there is no substitute for lengthy home demos.

You may be right in that the 11/12 year old 555PS might be in need of a recap/service, as others have had great results with the 272/555PS combo (HH) but we also all have our own personal preferences.

Let us know how it goes with the XPSDR.

HH has the ‘DR’ 555PS though.

G

Graeme - if the 555PS needs a service and that's why it sounds 'off', it might be worth exploring the cost difference between trading in your 555PS for a new XPS2DR and getting the 555PS serviced and DR'ed. As you know, Naim discount having a service and DR upgrade done at the same time. I can't help feeling that while initially a new XPS2DR might please you, you'll have that itch in the back of your mind about a properly sorted 555PSDR.  Of course the 272 was developed post DR so Naim must have optimised the 272 to take its current and best PSU.

HiFiman posted:

When I added the XP5xs to my 272 things really opened up and just recently I was contemplating a none DR 555 for my next upgrade as I cannot stretch to a 555DR so your comments regarding the none 555 are interesting. Personally I don't think a service is due on your 555 as the service period should be every 15 years on power supplies.

On the Naim website they recommend XP5xs for the 272, to me the XP5xs is a very nice upgrade and I may just stay put.

Hasn't Naim recently discontinued the XS series? 

MDS posted:
HiFiman posted:

When I added the XP5xs to my 272 things really opened up and just recently I was contemplating a none DR 555 for my next upgrade as I cannot stretch to a 555DR so your comments regarding the none 555 are interesting. Personally I don't think a service is due on your 555 as the service period should be every 15 years on power supplies.

On the Naim website they recommend XP5xs for the 272, to me the XP5xs is a very nice upgrade and I may just stay put.

Hasn't Naim recently discontinued the XS series? 

Just checked on the 272 web page and the XP5xs is still listed as an upgrade even though as you state it has now been discontinued.

 

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