BT Smart Hub

Ravenswood10 posted:

.............      There's also talk that the HH6 prone to ADSL line noise vs. HH4 and 5 although how true this is I don't know.

OK considering ADSL noise ..........  getting back to your post this morning re Orange light,  it means the hub is working but having a connection problem; this might be noise.   You say the line is OK,  but has it been checked by BT ???  I know of two instances were an extension that was not wired correctly & unused extensions caused issues.  My son had a lot of issues with his new Infinity service,  a BT engineer visit found a hidden extension installed by the previous house owner,  the fix was to remove it.   I had BT remove all my old phone, fax & telex extensions over two separate lines & my broadband line speed improved significantly,  the engineer said these T joints add line impedance & collect noise.     I'm  just thinking it would be worth adding a request for a free engineer visit to your 'friendly exec complaints chap at BT Newcastle' 

ChrisSU posted:
Then there's the quality of the copper cables themselves, many of which are years past their sell by date with corroded connections, etc. 

We have this issue.  Quite apart from having ancient aluminium lines running from the road across the fields to the house, at least one engineer identified our noise problem as being caused by corrosion to the contacts in a junction box down the road.  At the time he cleaned them up and things were great for a few months.  However, after a bout of rain, as things dry out the line gets really noisy and an internet connection longer than a few minutes becomes impossible.  It appears BT are happy with the status quo of me ringing and ringing, going through all the usual hoops before they eventually send out an engineer, and then you need one who is patient enough to hang around to trace the source. It really is like banging your head against the wall...

Richard Dane posted:
ChrisSU posted:
Then there's the quality of the copper cables themselves, many of which are years past their sell by date with corroded connections, etc. 

We have this issue.  Quite apart from having ancient aluminium lines running from the road across the fields to the house, at least one engineer identified our noise problem as being caused by corrosion to the contacts in a junction box down the road.  At the time he cleaned them up and things were great for a few months.  However, after a bout of rain, as things dry out the line gets really noisy and an internet connection longer than a few minutes becomes impossible.  It appears BT are happy with the status quo of me ringing and ringing, going through all the usual hoops before they eventually send out an engineer, and then you need one who is patient enough to hang around to trace the source. It really is like banging your head against the wall...

If there is a line issue then this can be usually be  quite easily identified by Openreach on a site visit - depending on the issue. One common issue is flooded ducts where through a nick or defect in the insulation  the copper can oxidise over a time - sometimes many years and eventually produce an oxide junction. This may well produce whistles or noise on the line but DSL will still work albeit with reduced performance.  If you are confident the fault is not your side of the consumer box then you can always call for a fault.. and the on site test equipment will normally identify it. (as opposed to the remote line checker)

Faults I have experienced where a partial service is maintained rather than a total outage are the above oxidised connection, bad ground and floating earth in the cabinet. The portable Openreach test equipment each time identified the fault - locating the fault was sometimes more of a challenge.

It is also really worth isolating your home wiring and using the consumer test socket connection and check the ADSL sync speed or voice quality from the test socket. From what I have seen many variable DSL connections can be down to poor domestic wiring and filters. If you don't use a master DSL socket but instead use discrete filters then isolating the ring wire can nearly always realise a benefit by reducing RF noise impacting the DSL - excessive disconnects after sun set is an indication of this

S

Hello, just thought I would let you know (in case you are thinking of moving to the 6) that I have just had my fifth six delivered after the last one died the green death a few days ago.  Unlike posters above, I've never had a problem getting it replaced quickly, just a problem keeping it working (it is good when it does though).  Latest one came with the assurance from India that this is a new improved unit and the old problems should have been solved.  Not had the motivation to set it up yet as the old hub 3 works fine and I'm dreading seeing that green glow again.

I know this is not a representative sample and we will always hear about problems and far less about kit that is faultless. However this could also be the tip of a sinking Smart Hub-shaped iceberg. Anyway, I have heard enough of failing HH6s on here to question why a massive and technologically advanced company like BT can't get a simple home hub right. I am sure they subcontract the detailed design and manufacture of the HH6 to others but surely they must specify and test the thing before releasing it on us poor souls. I was going to switch to a HH6 and am glad I didn't. I have a HH5 that seems to be OK now but I remember going through a few to arrive at a reliable one. Bu**ger, why did I say that. I so know what is going to happen now.

I do get the dreaded 'Finding Rooms' (and nothing else) when firing up the Naim app on occasion. Both Naim Customer Support and I believe the HH5 is the culprit and I have been advise to stick a LinkSys router between the HH5 and my switch. Mine is a simple wired network under very little strain and I see this as unnecessary additional cost required to make up for the deficiencies in BT's hubs. 

It does beggar belief that BT could get this rather simple (compared to their complex and sophisticated infrastructure) bit of kit so wrong, even for a minority. Come on BT, this is embarrassing.

OK I realise I am on the wrong forum for this, but it does affect us Naimees that want to stream their music but are battling with a BT home Hub - rant over. 

It does beggar any notion of good levels of service but unfortunately it does not beggar belief. Pretty basic stuff, costed to the bone and knocked out by the thousand. If it doesn't work then chuck it and send out another. I had this with HH4. So far so good on the Smart Hub.

nigelb posted:

I know this is not a representative sample and we will always hear about problems and far less about kit that is faultless. However this could also be the tip of a sinking Smart Hub-shaped iceberg. Anyway, I have heard enough of failing HH6s on here to question why a massive and technologically advanced company like BT can't get a simple home hub right. I am sure they subcontract the detailed design and manufacture of the HH6 to others but surely they must specify and test the thing before releasing it on us poor souls. I was going to switch to a HH6 and am glad I didn't. I have a HH5 that seems to be OK now but I remember going through a few to arrive at a reliable one. Bu**ger, why did I say that. I so know what is going to happen now.

I do get the dreaded 'Finding Rooms' (and nothing else) when firing up the Naim app on occasion. Both Naim Customer Support and I believe the HH5 is the culprit and I have been advise to stick a LinkSys router between the HH5 and my switch. Mine is a simple wired network under very little strain and I see this as unnecessary additional cost required to make up for the deficiencies in BT's hubs. 

It does beggar belief that BT could get this rather simple (compared to their complex and sophisticated infrastructure) bit of kit so wrong, even for a minority. Come on BT, this is embarrassing.

OK I realise I am on the wrong forum for this, but it does affect us Naimees that want to stream their music but are battling with a BT home Hub - rant over. 

The HH6 and other recent HH are actually quite advanced broadband routers, they need to be for various reasons such as for BT vision, although I can't speak for the hardware reliability issues that some appear to be having. They process multicast accurately, necessary for BT vision... however it does mean interoperability issues can arise between Naim and the HH router which would cause room not found discovery issues being persistently seen... many less advanced broadband routers largely ignore this capability aso issues don't arise, but you would be b*ggered using realively high bandwidth multicast streamed data.

One option on some routers is to disable IGMP snooping, not possible on the HH I believe .. probably because it is fairly essential for multicast video streaming. An alternative is to use a kludge and connect your UPnP media devices and Naim and a separate wifi access point to a dumb switch like a Netgear or an advanced switch like a Cisco 2960.. that way you can isolate any potential HH / Naim interoperability issue should you be experiencing one.

I actually run an IGMP querier on my home network such that it  forces correct IGMP group interoperability... I never have any discovery issues now with Naim, Apple and other items. I run the querier on one of my managed switches, a Cisco 2960.

Simon

I should not be saying anything as to do so will awaken one of the gods of retribution & my one & only trouble free BT HH6 will be cursed to a slow death of flashing lights.     But using the BT customer forum as an indicator it is very noticeable that the many HH6 complaint threads in 2016 has all but disappeared in 2017.   

BLee posted:

Hello, just thought I would let you know (in case you are thinking of moving to the 6) that I have just had my fifth six delivered after the last one died the green death a few days ago.  Unlike posters above, I've never had a problem getting it replaced quickly, just a problem keeping it working (it is good when it does though).  Latest one came with the assurance from India that this is a new improved unit and the old problems should have been solved.  Not had the motivation to set it up yet as the old hub 3 works fine and I'm dreading seeing that green glow again.

I was told the same story about my HH6 coming from new stock but it didn't stop it dying in around a week. I complained this time to executive level complaints in Newcastle and was given a refund without asking. After 6 HH6s I decided that enough was enough and went for a Vigor 2860. Configuring this took around 10 minutes - it's still rock solid and the wireless signal is better than the not-so-smart hub

Lets hope it continues

Oh and by the way I was also told by India that HH6s don't work on copper (wrong!) and that they would send a HH4. I've also been advised that I need to renew my BT contract and their deal includes a HH4! NO THANKS!

My HH6 has been 100% fine since I got it in January. I did have occasional discovery issues over the years with HH3 HH5 and HH6 but switching from a £15 Tenga switch to a Cisco 2960 has completely cured them and it is now rock solid (he says, jinxing himself). Can't think why a switch made such a difference but it definitely has.

I have occasional discovery issues and I have a Cisco 2960 switch which goes straight into a HH5 and the US and NDS go into the 2960. Simon, would an additional switch between the 2960 and the HH5 solve my discovery issues as Pev has done?

Harry posted:

It does beggar any notion of good levels of service but unfortunately it does not beggar belief. Pretty basic stuff, costed to the bone and knocked out by the thousand. If it doesn't work then chuck it and send out another. I had this with HH4. So far so good on the Smart Hub.

Clearly BT don't appear the factor in the 'cost' of pi**ing off so many customers!

I suppose I have unwittingly enabled IGMP snooping (whatever that is) by substituting my Netgear switch with the Cisco 2960. When I asked Naim Customer Support about the discovery issues I occasionally suffered, they recommended a router be inserted between my HH5 and my 2960. Would this router then act as the 'separate wifi access point' you refer to? Please excuse the technical illiteracy - I am still learning.

Just 10 houses down my lane  and 1.3 miles from a fiber to cabinet green box. Quiet line and the Vigor is rock solid. Perhaps the HH6 is designed for the lucky majority with kilotonnes of download speed but I'm glad I'm rid of the thing. Looks nice but useless as far as my experience with it goes.

Hi Nigel, IGMP snooping is a method where by devices listen or snoop on the multicast protocol being sent over specific switch ports to ascertain whether devices connected on a particular switch port need to receive specific addresses or groups of multicast data. If the devices on the port are not subscribing to particular multicast address group then the data is pruned from that port. This is for network loading and efficiency reasons and is usually quite important for wifi, since multicast data is otherwise sent to all clients on a network  like broadcast data. 

UPnP Simple Servive Discovery Protocol uses multicast address of 239.255.255.250, and for discovery to work that address needs to be received by all devices on the network. Now devices participating in the discovery will join that address group or multicast group by using SSDP IGMP discovery messages. A dumb basic switch like a little Netgear ignores this and sends the discovery data to clients whether they want it or not. Devices operating IGMP snooping will only send the discovery data to devices that have requested to to be part of Simple Services Discovery Protocol group ( i.e. Participating with the 239.255.255.250 multicast address). Hopefully you can now see why if something goes wrong with a devices IGMP group request and the snooper that a device will not become discoverable even though it's unicast IP address works fine on the network. The Naim devices and the UPnP media server will be effectively issuing and responding with discovery group messages .

An IGMP querier is simply a method of actively forcing devices to respond if they are part of a multicast group so the data can be more accurately snooped, and so multicast group addressed data like SSDP becomes more responsive .. in other words my Naim app becomes very responsive to all valid devices on the network.

With regard to the advice given to you.. I don't understand it as stated as you definitely don't want to add a router as you suggest.. the network won't work, but you might want to add a wifi access point like a little Apple Airport Express off the 2960 switch, or perhaps you can get your old non BT broadband router simply to act as a wifi access point... perhaps referred to as a wifi bridge?

Nigel, I forgot to say, yes by default the Cisco2960 has IGMP snooping enabled, but works well with all fairly recent Naim firmware as far as I have seen. I suspect it's at the wifi level where discovery data is being pruned... try that alternate access point, hang off the 2960 and you should hopefully  be fine.

You may find in that setup your HH6 is then helping you by acting as a  mcast router sending query messages for you.. I am afraid I don't have a HH6 to hand so can't confirm. Given Mike on this forum has great success with the HH6 and he tells us his Naim app is extremely responsive with no delay of UPnP servers appearing and he doesn't (knowingly) use a querier  I suspect this possibly might be the case.

Simon, thanks for the explanation and advice. In fact I have a HH5 (not HH6) but I am sure the advice is the same.

At the moment my discovery issues are random and infrequent and resolve themselves (by switching devices off and on) so I will not meddle unless things get worse.

Cheers

Nigel,  a while back BT confirmed to me their Home Hubs (up to HH5 at that point)  have IGMP automatically enabled.  Whatever there is no option to enable/disable it in the hub manager.  Prior to HH6 I had a HH5 & it normally did not have a discovery problem, but once in a while it did & my usual solution was to kill the app & start again;  so it might not have been BT but the Naim app that got its knickers in a twist.    So far my HH6 has not been a problem, although last Friday it did get into a Find Rooms problem,  but again I'm pretty convinced it was an app problem.     As a beta tester I've changed apps a lot over the last months & discovery does seem to be a variable;  I'm not convinced Naim have got this feature optimised just yet.

nigelb posted:

Simon, thanks for the explanation and advice. In fact I have a HH5 (not HH6) but I am sure the advice is the same.

At the moment my discovery issues are random and infrequent and resolve themselves (by switching devices off and on) so I will not meddle unless things get worse.

Cheers

Good, if you are resolving by switching on and off it's almost certainly discovery IGMP related on your broadband router, possibly with the wifi bridge.. ... if it's infrequent and you don't mind switching on and off occasionally then that is probably best. My suggestion should make it rock solid.. but then I am just fussy. 

I have now no discovery issues what so ever with any beta or production version of the Naim app or with any non Naim discovery application

My BT HH6 has gone thru an abnormal number of power cycles in the last days.  8 hour power failure,  men came & dug a big hole & replaced a Y junction & a 20m section of cable.   A few days later I powered off to change the BT supplied SMPS to my iFi iPower unit.  I then powered off while overseas & back on again when returned.  A few hours later power off to go farming in Somerset & finally powered up late night.  It worked perfectly (just like the old HH5)      It just works as intended so why am I surprised,  I'm not surprised in the slightest TBH but after reading the doom & disasters in this thread I think I owe it to the forum to report what my HH6 has been going through.  

One 'doh' moment in the wee small hours, after HH6 was powered up followed by NAS & NDX,  I ripped some CD's into laptop & uploaded to NAS, this was while playing iRadio on NDX.  Then I tried to open UPnP & nothing happened !!!  No matter what I tried, NDX & NAS would not talk to each other.   So the ol' IT when nothing else wurx fallback,  powered NDX & NAS off & (one at a time) powered first NAS followed by NDX, success !!!    All I can think of is I powered up NDX before NAS had completed its start & network discovery sequence.

Mike, I am sure your experience is as unremarkable as to the millions of other HomeHubs out there... glad its working for you and you can enjoy your tunes.....

I don't doubt what so ever the issues that some have... but either they are very unlucky .. and there has to be a tail on that Gaussian distribution somewhere.. or there are other factors at play

I have had a couple of (non) discovery issues recently but before the usual switching off and on frenzy, I checked the wifi connection on my iPad. On each discovery issue occasion, I found my iPad had mysteriously connected to my Printer's wifi which has no Ethernet connection to my network. As soon as I reassigned the iPads wifi connection to the HH5, hey presto.

What Mike might call a d'oh moment. It indeed is possible that some of the issues that are assumed to lie with BT HHs, might not. I also suspect some are indeed the fault of the good old HH (that is HomeHub and not our esteemed forumite of course!)

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