Change the amp or speakers in bass boom hell ?

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April 11, 2004 12:11 AM

Hi,

I recently became the proud owner of a used 300 power amp in conjunction with my CDS3/XPS2/252/ Neat Ultimatum MF5 set up.Unfortunately using the 300 has helped tip my speakers ( already close to teetering on the edge of bass dominance, depending on the records) into bass boom hell.
I use my rear ported Neats in a room measuring 13x12 feet on a suspended wooden floor. I bought the Neats used. It was amazing to see them for sale used , so soon after they had been released onto the market, so I took the risk of buying them , without a demo in my living room . I had of course heard them in my local dealers (with a view to buying them) before.
When I first got the Neats home I was using a CDS2/XPS2/52/Scap/135's. I was mightily impressed with what I heard, but found that on certain particulary deep bass recordings the bass could be overbearing. ( BTW, the Neats are about about 5 feet apart and 1-1.5 feet awat from the rear wall). After reading praise about Fraim chips on the forum, I decided to invest in a set and this helped quite alot in reducing the bass boom to tolerable levels , whilst opening up the treble/mid and making the speakers sounding faster. Only the deepest of bass tracks caused a problem e.g dance music seismic bass, but otherwise I was a happy bunny.
Upgraditus took hold and I went on a rather crazy spending spree resulting in a CDS3/252 and then the 300. I could'nt resist some ex-demo deals up for grabs, although of course I bought my CDS3 from my local dealer.
Everything was just getting better and better until I got the 300, which has sadly tipped the balance of the sound of the set up into overpowering bass mode again, only to a greater extent this time. The bass except on (60's/70's recordings) is dominating to such an extent, that the treble/mid are sounding sat upon and slowed down, that I'm not in a position to judge the merits of the 300.
Unfortunately I am not in a position to move the speakers back/forwards/sideways/toe in to any great degree ( there is a TV in the middle), as I just haven't got the room to play with. I've tried paving slabs and they did'nt work for me, (the Fraim chips did ),nor can I go down the seperate mains spur route. I'm certain its a room/speaker interface problem, which has always existed to some extent, but which I have just pushed to the limits.
Ok this is where you good people come in, as I see myself having 3 options :-


1. Persevere with the MF5's and try custom made Mana Soundbases under them. I've heard the Mana's can be very useful in tightening up the bass, as I suspect my suspended wooden floor is the culprit. Perhaps getting the speaker off the suspended floor, could help tame the problem. Fraim chips did help before and surely the Mana's with their greater isloation/decoupling could help to a greater extent. I don't want the Mana to alter the sound in any way, merely tame the bass.

2. Keep the 300 and move down a level to the standmount Neat Ultimatum MFS. I would of course make sure I get a home demo of the Neats , as I know the MFS is still capable of substantial bass. MFS users out there- how do they sound in a small room (13x12 ) and do they boom at all in the deepest bass. I would love to get a listen.

3. Change the 300 for a new style 250 and keep the MF5's.

What do you think sounds the best option of these 3 suggestions ? I love the MF5's and Neat Ultimatums as a whole. They have fantastic PR & T, are involving,detailed and soundstage really well. I really would like to keep the MF5's as they have fantastic bass and scale, but if the MFS's are really a better balance in my front room, then so be it.

Many thanks,

Rod
 
 
 
 
April 11, 2004 12:21 AM

Rod

I know you have said that you would have problems in moving the speakers - but I would urge a move forwards/backwards to see if that helps. It sounds to me as if you have a bass boom caused by the room resonating, rather than the problem being with the 300 which is a mighty fine amp.

I assume that the booming does not occur on all bass notes?

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 12:58 AM

quote:
Originally posted by rod ayling:
Hi,

I recently became the proud owner of a used 300 power amp in conjunction with my CDS3/XPS2/252/ Neat Ultimatum MF5 set up.Unfortunately using the 300 has helped tip my speakers ( already close to teetering on the edge of bass dominance, depending on the records) into bass boom hell.
I use my rear ported Neats in a room measuring 13x12 feet on a suspended wooden floor. I bought the Neats used. It was amazing to see them for sale used , so soon after they had been released onto the market, so I took the risk of buying them , without a demo in my living room . I had of course heard them in my local dealers (with a view to buying them) before.
When I first got the Neats home I was using a CDS2/XPS2/52/Scap/135's. I was mightily impressed with what I heard, but found that on certain particulary deep bass recordings the bass could be overbearing. ( BTW, the Neats are about about 5 feet apart and 1-1.5 feet awat from the rear wall). After reading praise about Fraim chips on the forum, I decided to invest in a set and this helped quite alot in reducing the bass boom to tolerable levels , whilst opening up the treble/mid and making the speakers sounding faster. Only the deepest of bass tracks caused a problem e.g dance music seismic bass, but otherwise I was a happy bunny.
Upgraditus took hold and I went on a rather crazy spending spree resulting in a CDS3/252 and then the 300. I could'nt resist some ex-demo deals up for grabs, although of course I bought my CDS3 from my local dealer.
Everything was just getting better and better until I got the 300, which has sadly tipped the balance of the sound of the set up into overpowering bass mode again, only to a greater extent this time. The bass except on (60's/70's recordings) is dominating to such an extent, that the treble/mid are sounding sat upon and slowed down, that I'm not in a position to judge the merits of the 300.
Unfortunately I am not in a position to move the speakers back/forwards/sideways/toe in to any great degree ( there is a TV in the middle), as I just haven't got the room to play with. I've tried paving slabs and they did'nt work for me, (the Fraim chips did ),nor can I go down the seperate mains spur route. I'm certain its a room/speaker interface problem, which has always existed to some extent, but which I have just pushed to the limits.
Ok this is where you good people come in, as I see myself having 3 options :-


1. Persevere with the MF5's and try custom made Mana Soundbases under them. I've heard the Mana's can be very useful in tightening up the bass, as I suspect my suspended wooden floor is the culprit. Perhaps getting the speaker off the suspended floor, could help tame the problem. Fraim chips did help before and surely the Mana's with their greater isloation/decoupling could help to a greater extent. I don't want the Mana to alter the sound in any way, merely tame the bass.

2. Keep the 300 and move down a level to the standmount Neat Ultimatum MFS. I would of course make sure I get a home demo of the Neats , as I know the MFS is still capable of substantial bass. MFS users out there- how do they sound in a small room (13x12 ) and do they boom at all in the deepest bass. I would love to get a listen.

3. Change the 300 for a new style 250 and keep the MF5's.

What do you think sounds the best option of these 3 suggestions ? I love the MF5's and Neat Ultimatums as a whole. They have fantastic PR & T, are involving,detailed and soundstage really well. I really would like to keep the MF5's as they have fantastic bass and scale, but if the MFS's are really a better balance in my front room, then so be it.

Many thanks,

Rod
hy Rod!My experience:if an amp is good quality (300 is),it cannot have to much
power.(only if you play to loud chassis will crack against magnet or will burn through,both
you will not recognize as a boomy bass distortion.
So you are right to think over Speaker/room situation.
First find out best position of your speakers,
later on you can give smaller speakers a try.
i would not start to clear this situation
with mana,because i think you are talking about
standing waves in the room and not about mechanical speaker/floor synergy.
My personal opinion.

O.J.
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 1:06 AM

I agree with Mike about it possibly being room resonation.
I don't want to be unhelpfull but I don't think going to a 250mkII would help much. I have one and it gives out serious bass so I doubt it would be much less than a 300 in that respect.
I had to move my speakers quite small amounts at a time to find the best position for minimum resonance. You have to be systematic. Changes of an inch or so can make a difference.

Give that a try.

regards
GEOFF
 
 
 
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James (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 1:18 AM

Ported loudspeakers are the work of the devil, said Rico. For once, I agree with him. I'm willing to bet that the port resonance frequency of the MF5s coincide neatly (excuse the pun) with a major room mode. A sealed box loudspeaker will much easily side-step room boom.

James a.k.a sealed box fanatic
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 1:39 AM

Hi,Guys,

Thanks for all your replies at this time of night !

I'm not putting the blame on the 300 as such, its just that the 300 gives out one hell of a lotta bass and weight and I've probably just pushed it over the edge, as to what my room can handle.
I've got very little scope in terms of repositioning my speakers and surely moving them backwards towards the rear wall (for a rear ported speaker ) is not a good thing. The trouble is I have a TV inbetween the speakers and have to allow room either side of the tube to avoid magnetic interference. My new Toshiba seems a bit more sensitive than my previous one and I have to be careful.
I do think its some sort of room resonance or suspended floor/room speaker interface problem. I use to own some small Neat Petites before and I don't remember any bass boom problem before. But since the bigger speakers have moved in e.g Neat Elites and Naim Allae's, the problem has crept in. Then again the Petites don't do real bass or the amplification I was using at the time.
It is so annoying that the room resonance/suspended floor/ speaker interface seems to be such an issue for owners of highly capable front end and amplification in small rooms, who crave speakers capable of doing justice to this sort of equipment, with regards to scale, dynamics and resolution. Does it mean I am limited to using small standmounts ( MFS excepted) which just don't do scale and bass . It seems such a waste of using a CDS3/XPS2/252/300. Great bass puts the sex into the music !
Maybe I should downgrade to a Technics midi hifi system it thats the case !!

Thanks and goodnight for now,

Rod
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 1:48 AM

Hi,James,

Quote :-
Ported loudspeakers are the work of the devil, said Rico. For once, I agree with him. I'm willing to bet that the port resonance frequency of the MF5s coincide neatly (excuse the pun) with a major room mode. A sealed box loudspeaker will much easily side-step room boom.

I did own some Allae's before and even they boomed in my room to a lesser extent(probably due to the fact that they don't do MF5 weight of bass ). I had to have the Allae's away from the wall to avoid this.
I would certainly have to consider SL2's or NBL's (side firing bass drivers !), if MFS's (my next favourite's ) did'nt work out.
I love great deep bass and scale, but it has to be agile,rhythmic and keep the flow of the music.

Cheers,

Rod
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 2:05 AM

Mike,

Quote:-

I assume that the booming does not occur on all bass notes?

Sorry I forgot to answer your earlier point.

No it doesn't occur on all bass notes, just the really deep, modern style recordings type.


Bass on 60's/70's recordings which is much lighter ( and a lot easier to follow on the recording ) is fine . For instance I played some Scott Walker, Abba and Big Star (what an odd threesome ! ) and it all sounded generally fine, if a little less slower and agile , than I last remember .

Play modern recordings like Nirvana and the bass is very clean and punchy , whereas something like Achtung Baby by U2 or an Elbow album and the bass on these albums is more indistinct and it is harder to follow the actual bass line. So its all down to the recording as such and certain types of recordings bring out the bass boom more than others.


I hope this makes sense.

Regards,

Rod
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 3:33 AM

Rod - you have private mail.
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 4:57 AM

Rod

Rear ported speakers are very big problem in a small room like yours. Depending on size they need 3 to 4 feet from the rear wall to tighten the bass. Mana would help for the wooden floor, but the boom is caused by the close distance to the rear wall /what about side walls?/. After bad experience in a 24 x 11,5 feet room I decided that I'll never use pear ported speakers.

I have the same electronics like you and I feel that it requires bigger rooms.
If you can't change the room, can't move the neats from the wall, try some sealed speakers.

Emil
 
 
 
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James (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 6:13 AM

Rod,
quote:
I did own some Allae's before and even they boomed in my room to a lesser extent

The Allaes are ported, even by Naim's own admission. The sealed varieties are limited to SBL, SL2, NBL, DBL and IBL. And of course these babies ...



James
 
 
 
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saladisfun (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 7:33 AM

Like others, I am confident this is a room / port interaction, both having a similar resonance.

In the pastI have had similar problems, it destroys the flow of the music and obscures the rest of the music.
Two approaches exist, take measures to control either the port resonance or the room resonance
The port resonance is where to start. One easy trial would be stuff the port with some suitable material. Some speaker manufacturers such as B&W provide port plugs which effectively move the speaker to a sealed IB design.
You might try a pair of socks for starters.
The room resonance is more difficult, moving the speakers as suggested is not possible but you might also try moving your listening position. Other options would include base traps etc

David
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 7:41 AM

Hi Rod,


I have the Neat MFS standmounts and they can boom too given the room they are in or positioning from the wall so be carefull and insist on a home demo before wasting money moving to the MFS. I find that if I move them well away from the wall (3ft plus) they are fine and this is with CDX2/XPS2/282/250.

It might be worth trying sealed units as some suggest here.
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 8:26 AM

"Rear ported speakers are very big problem in a small room like yours."
...can anyone explains me what is a rear ported speaker?

Thanks
Edouard
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 8:53 AM

You could try and listen to some Kans?

Paul
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 9:22 AM

Hi rod

Small room + rear ported speakers = loads of base unless you can get the speakers well of the wall. I have a small room and any rear ported speaker has failed. If you like the PRaT that the Neats give you but want to remove boom check out Ruark floorstanders (Prologue II/Talisman III) Big Grin.

Colin
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 9:37 AM

...No one is willing to explain me what is a rear ported speaker?
...Is it what we call Bass reflex speakers?

HAPPY EASTER

Edouard
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 10:20 AM

Hi Rod
I recently listened to exactly your system at Infidelity, in a room I guess of similar size. There was no problem with too much bass there, on what I assume is a solid floor. Mana soundbases have been recommended before on this forum for suspended floors, but I believe they'd have to be custom made and you therefore wouldn't get your money back if not found suitable.
Infidelity's room had other bits of kit in - it may be worth experimenting with adding/moving furniture to try to break up resonance.

You also have a private mail.

Richard
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 10:41 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Edouard:
...No one is willing to explain me what is a rear ported speaker?
Edouard



Doucement, doucement.... Its sunday morning over here and no response within the hour is hardly unusual.

Oh yeah, its a speaker with a port at the rear. HTH

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 10:55 AM

quote:
...No one is willing to explain me what is a rear ported speaker?
...Is it what we call Bass reflex speakers?

HAPPY EASTER

Edouard


Yes it can be. James may want to comment but as I understand it the circular tube or "port" is designed into the speaker cabinet and carefully optimized as regards diameter and length to provide the correct amount of air resistance, allowing the low frequency limit of the bass speaker to extend down to lower values. Sometimes the port is in the front face, or even on the top surface but typically it is is built into the rear face of the speaker. This is done because at it's resonant frequency the port will emit a "chuffing" sound as the air flying thru'it vibrates. Having the port in the rear face of the speaker tends to make it less obvious. However if you put a rear ported speaker close to a wall the port has a lovely time bouncing the air back and forth and creating lots of inflated bass or "boom".

Often ports are treated as a solution for getting extended bass response out of a small cabinet volume. If you want serious controlled bass the other approach is to use a sealed box with a larger volume as seen in floor standers, though speaker manufacturers seem to love ports so much that they design floorstanders with them aswell.

regards
GEOFF
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 11:27 AM

Edouard

Mike is right. It's a Sunday. And what a Sunday!

This is my first visit to the forum for today.

Yes, port = bass reflex. In continental Europe it's called bass reflex.

Emil
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 11:55 AM

Hi

How I sympathise with you. I know exactly what you’re going through having tried crazy spending sprees to buy my way out of bass boom hell and although each box upgrade tightens the bass the problem remains.

It is without doubt a room dimension resonance – 13 foot would give 43Hz and 12 foot would give 46Hz (1/2 wavelength using Freq = speed sound/wavelength). So both are very close and probably re-inforcing each other.

I find my bass boom can be tamed a bit by speaker re-positioning, etc but the bass optimised position is not the everything else optimised position so usually a compromise has to be found.

You need expert help. Do not change any more Naim boxes without this. Do not blame the mains or the wooden floor

My advice is to find a good dealer who knows his stuff and buy some of his time to come round and go through your system set-up thoroughly. Get him to bring along a full system he knows that works and substitute each part of the system to ensure each is performing optimally. (Mine found a sub-optimally performing black SNAIC, NACA5 and pre-power interconnect and NAP500!!!).

Then he can help you choose another pair of speakers that will form the optimal link between your room and your electronics your room

Best of luck
 
 
 
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Gareth Thorburn (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 12:07 PM

Hi,

I experienced a similar problem in my room (wooden floors, lots of glass) where bass boom would appear and over power the rest of the sound. Like you, I seemed to find it much more apparent on many recent recordings and not on older ones. After trying a few I found the best match for my room were SL2's. Others report them as being a bit bass light and perhaps it is the combination with my room but I don't find that to be the case at all. Instead, I find that I can actually turn the volume up and everything scales up nicely with no overpowering bass and lots of very fast tight bass.

Gareth
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 12:12 PM

Hi,

Thanks for all your replies.

Emil,

For a matter of interest what speakers are you using now. My memory tells me its a pair of Focal- JM Labs. How do they sound in your room ?


James,

If all else fails and even the MFS, then I may have to consider Naim sealed box speakers. Although as I said Allae's even boomed in my front room.

David,

Thanks for your suggestions. I've read about absorption panels and bass traps before and will seriously have to look into this. Anything to keep my beloved Neats. BTW, one question about the socks in the rear ports, I've heard the port/socks combination works even better if the socks are used and unwashed. Is this true and if so, is the trade off between odour and increased performance worthwhile!


Desert Rat,

Good God I've had replies from Australia,Japan and now Abu Dhabi re this problem. Word sure gets around ! Thanks for the info on the MFS. I know they are definetly capable of substanial bass and will get a home demo, if all else fails. I rememeber once reading a review of the MFS, in which the reviewer said this speaker worked well in his room, with only 9 inches of room behind the rear ports. Its all down to your particular room though.


I have a seriously good system capable of very high resolution and the scale and depth of a recording and it would be a crying shame to then have to use a pair of Kans as the final link in the chain. After trying Mana and bass absorbtion panels, ( I can't move the furniture around, or add or delete furniture , as this doubles up as an attractive living room , albeit heavily cluttered with 5 piece thick sofa, with rug and carpet ), then I will have to consider a quality standmount capable of doing my system justice or sealed box Naim speakers. I guess the NBL's would be out .

Thanks ,

Rod
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 12:13 PM

Mike, Geoff, Emil,

Thanks SO much for your knowledgeable and specific explanation...

sorry guys I forgot you guys in England wake up an hour later....
you'll have time to rest tomorrow as well!

Enjoy this great long weekend

Cheers

Edouard
 
 
 
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Vuk's son (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 2:31 PM

Rod, [another advice from around the globe]

Again, the Allae is a ported speaker. The thing about closed speakers is that the low bass has a slow decay. This helps tame room modes. With ported speakers, there're bumps and lows at this region. If you have a bump at the same frequency where a room mode booms, you're in trouble.

One thing you must try is Mana. I say must, because if you loved your rig, this is a change that can solve this problem without a major change. If you cannot buy-and-return the soundbases, I think the regular sound-frames can be used instead - with the mdf plates - this is perhaps not optimal like tailored SBs, but close. You can consult the Mana forum.

Good luck,
Omer.
 
 
 
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saladisfun (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 3:01 PM

Hi Rod

The type of sock can be tuned to your requirements. Unwashed socks do have some particular advantages:

Recent contact with athlete's foot for good fast rhythm; a small pair for a nice tight base.
However the wife's tights might be more your taste.

David
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 3:16 PM

quote:
I don't want the Mana to alter the sound in any way, merely tame the bass.




quote:
One thing you must try is Mana. I say must, because if you loved your rig, this is a change that can solve this problem without a major change


It is not referred to as the 'Mana Effect' for nothing. For me there was a fundamental change (effect!)to the presentation of music when Mana was in my system. I am not going to say whether it was right or wrong, just that I feel it can change the character of equipment. It will certainly tighten the bass, but may introduce other changes you may not want.
Obviously plenty of people love it's effect, so I'm not going to knock it.

Cheers
Ade
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 3:33 PM

Hi,


Gareth,

The SL2's could definetly be an option and their lighter bass balance could work well in my front room. I do love Neats though and would also have to do a home demo on the MFS, if I am no longer able to keep the MF5's.


Omer,

I'm definetly thinking about the Mana idea. I would need a custom made pair and as you quite rightly say , having a custom made pair would mean no money back gurantee. I only require the Mana to tame the bass boom and not change the overall sound, so if they don't tame the bass problem, I would have to sell them and this might prove difficult for a custom sized pair. I've been measuring out the size I need ( I want them to be as discreet as possible with no overhang, they are no oil paintings, oil rig maybe !) and am trying to come up with a size, that should I sell them will be of use to others.

David,

I shall start walking around damp floors in swimming pool areas immediately and not dry my feet properly, to attain Athlete's foot and just keep the beat flowing.


Ok back to the crux of the problem. Lets look at the evidence and the solutions to the possible problem area's.

1. Room resonance - treat the room acoustically to tackle this.


2. Suspended wooden floor/speaker interface - Use Mana to help remedy this.


3. Use smaller high quality standmounts with less bass response or non ported speaker types e.g SL2's or NBL's ?


Thanks all so far and any further ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Rod
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 3:56 PM

Rod

You may want to try out something like http://www.cara.de/ENU/index.html to see how your rooms behaving. Takes time and a reasonable puter but worthwhile. Once you've got the basics saved it allows tou to explore possible changes in speaker positioning etc. If after you've done that and want to explore room treatments then heres a starting place http://absolute.users.netlink.co.uk/top%20nav%20bar.html there are plenty of others.

Sean
 
 
 
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Adam A (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 4:12 PM

Rod

I experienced similar problems myself in my 3m x 4m room.

I'm using a CDS2/XPS/52/SCAP/250 system into Neat MFS's

FWIW, when choosing speakers (as an upgrade from Allaes) I auditioned the MF5's and ultimately had to reject them because of the bass energy produced 'setting off the room'.

I am fortunate to have concrete floors and so my problem may not have been as severe as you are experiencing -although my room is smaller.

FWIW, I would seriously consider the MFS route; driven by a 300 I think they would be a staggering combination. For my money I don't believe you will find another speaker outside the Neat range that will float your boat so your choice is very limited.

Contact Neat direct and have a chat with Bob or Derek - I'm sure they will be happy to arrange for you to have a home demo of the MFS's.

Adam
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 4:33 PM

Sean,

Thanks alot for the info. Plenty to read up on during Easter, as soon as our visitors go !

Adam,

I love Neats and have used Critiques, Petites, Elites, Centrum's and then used Allae's for a while. The only standmount I really can consider is the MFS, if all else fails with the MF5. One question please with regards to the rear ports. How much space behind the speakers have you allowed for ? I know NB, used to only have a foot behind his MF9's in his previous address and now has 1-1.5 feet currently, with the speakers close to the corners as well and he has no problems.( I don't think NB will comment on this at the moment as he can't tear himself away from his new toy the 552 ! ). Another MF5 owner in Japan, has his MF5 only 50cm from the back wall and again right up to the corners. But his room is quite a bit bigger than mine and the speakers are quite wide apart. I think the Ultimatums can therefore work reasonably close up to rear walls , but as usual is room dependant. Paul Messenger commented on the MF9's that this speaker showed very little tendency to excite the suspended wooden floor of his listening room. With all of these comments , I felt I could take a risk on the Ultimatums , buying second hand ,without doing a home demo.

Regards,

Rod
 
 
 
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AlexG (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 4:58 PM

Rod

I have about 12" behind my MFS's. The wall is made of plasterboard (as opposed to a solid brick wall) and they sound pretty fine to me (small room, comparable in size to Adam's, only mine is 'fuller' with other stuff).

I don't think my MFS's are boomy, but I rarely crank it up because of the baby. The windows rattle before any boominess dominates Big Grin

I'm only round the corner from you as you know.....

ag
 
 
 
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7V 7V is offline. Click for Member Snapshot.
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April 11, 2004 5:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rod ayling:
1. Room resonance - treat the room acoustically to tackle this.


2. Suspended wooden floor/speaker interface - Use Mana to help remedy this.


3. Use smaller high quality standmounts with less bass response or non ported speaker types e.g SL2's or NBL's ?


Thanks all so far and any further ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Rod, I'd be interested to know whether you can feel much floor vibration (with your finger tips) near the speakers. If so, you could try a simple and inexpensive decoupling tweak that can be extremely effective under some circumstances: Doorstop/Superball

Simply, bolt the inverted doorstops into the threads that are usually used for the spikes and place superballs (you can buy these for next to nothing from Toys R Us) underneath them.

I would be inclined to try this before splashing out on the Mana.

Acoustically treating the room is also a good idea but the bass traps tend to take up a fair bit of space to be effective.

Finally, at the risk of being controversial (so what's new?), speaker cabling can be very influential in this area. Keep the cable runs to the speakers as short as possible and consider a speaker cable by the company that makes the power chords referred to in the "Amazing New Discovery (II)" thread. I've recently swapped the cable on my bass speakers and the improvement is substantial.

Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 5:37 PM

Rod

I had Mezzo Utopias and that was the perfect room/speakers match in my 7,5x3,5m room. Note that they were a little bit bass light.

Now I'm in week 7 with the new Alto Utopia Be. Bass reproduction is near a live performance. On some tracks with extended bass there is a room issue, asking for a bigger room. Normal bass is not a problem.

Problem is the beryllium tweeter. Everything sounds so natural, so easy, not a sign of aggression. It is way ahead all the tweeters I heard before. For instance guitars sound better than live!? Here comes the problem. You can turn the volume up to 11 or 12 and the HF stay natural and relaxed. In the same time too much bass is coming from the bass driver. Too much for my room. Hopefully I'll change the house this year. Of course the speakers are not fully run in. This might change.

I think that you need nothing but SL2. If you have possibility, listen to Micro Utopia Be.

Emil
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 5:53 PM

Rod,

If it helps I have a 250 Mk2 that you can borrow to see if you 300 is the problem. It might be since the 300 has a much more powerful and stronger bass than the 250 Mk2. Send me a PT.

regards

Dev
 
 
 
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Adam A (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 6:28 PM

Rod

My MFS's are 50cm (19") from the rear wall (which is made of glass so I guess isn't representative) and 25cm (10") from side walls.

They are pretty close to the corners of the room but I don't suffer with boom (unlike with the Allaes (but IMHO the Allae's had a boxy chesty sound that exacerbated this).

In my journey to find the right speaker to replace the Allae one of the things that became readily apparent was the need to choose a speaker that was proportionate to the room. I'm not talking about the obvious DBL's don't work in a broom cupboard kind of thing - more about the scale and 'size' of the sound the speaker produces.

To me, the great appeal of the Neat Ultimatums is their ability to create a wonderful open and vivid soundspace in which voices instruments etc sit and are in proportion to one another. Although the MF5 certainly had more weight in the really low bass the MFS were just as able (maybe even more so) to create an acoustic space as the MF5's. For this reason I think you may find the transition to MFS easier than you think.

Personally, I was really unwilling to believe I could go 'backwards' to a standmount having graduated to floorstanding speakers. One listen to the MFS's though and I was convinced; the bass that they have is wholly disproportional to their size - I guess its the isobarik loading.

Whatever you decide do make sure you at least try the MFS in your room for a few days - I'm convinced it would be an awesome combination. In the time I've had them I'm convinced that they are ready to do justice to a better source and amplification than I can currently offer them! Your set up would be perfect!

Adam
 
 
 
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Vuk's son (Guest)
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April 11, 2004 8:30 PM

Rod,

quote:
For me there was a fundamental change (effect!)to the presentation of music when Mana was in my system.


Sorry, Ade has a point. It is a change, it doesn't only tighten the bass, best if you hear it.

Have you looked at the dimensions of the standard soundframe (not sound base) ? it might suit you as a test phase, if you like it, you may return and order the special soundbases ? I'd ask.

Omer.
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 10:01 PM

I was facing the same problem as Rod when I decided to upgrade my speakers (system is CDS2/XPS/52/SC/135s): smallish and squarish (ouch) 12x12ft room (around 3,5m x 3,5m for those who use those decimal meters Wink ).

As Neat is not even imported here in France, home demo was clearly out of question, so I settled on a fine s/h pair of IBLs. No bass boom with those little babies Smile
One big plus is the space gain due to the speakers "glued" to the wall.
This however doen't put me off a pair of MFS one of these days when the room size and configuration will change.

Jean-Marc
 
 
 
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April 11, 2004 10:02 PM

HI Rod,

Sorry I am entering this thread very late, I havn't spent long on the forum lately,

Send me a pt and I will catch up with you, the answer is simple!


Regards

NB
 
 
 
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