Chord DACs

analogmusic posted:

I was just kidding... it is very expensive

It is a massive FPGA based processor, even much more complicated than the one in Dave, and actually / apparently transforms Dave into something else.... some people say the Dave is really in need of a blu2...... 

This approach has been used by companies like DCS, and also Naim (NDS / XPS to NDS/ PS555DR)

OK, I've gone and looked up th Blu2 and I think I understand.

so we can expect Poly's big brother to be sort of Poly grafted in place of the Blu2's CD drive. Interesting, but sadly a lottery requiremen! So my interest remains in whether Poly itself is any good as a renderer -  I am wondering about whether, if it truly is good, Poly could be used with Dave (see the Portable Audio, or lack of ? thread).

Innocent Bystander posted:
analogmusic posted:

I was just kidding... it is very expensive

It is a massive FPGA based processor, even much more complicated than the one in Dave, and actually / apparently transforms Dave into something else.... some people say the Dave is really in need of a blu2...... 

This approach has been used by companies like DCS, and also Naim (NDS / XPS to NDS/ PS555DR)

OK, I've gone and looked up th Blu2 and I think I understand.

so we can expect Poly's big brother to be sort of Poly grafted in place of the Blu2's CD drive. Interesting, but sadly a lottery requiremen! So my interest remains in whether Poly itself is any good as a renderer -  I am wondering about whether, if it truly is good, Poly could be used with Dave (see the Portable Audio, or lack of ? thread).

I'm pretty sure I read on the huge Poly thread on head-fi that the Poly is locked to the Mojo. But of course there's nothing stopping Chord coming up with a similar, or possibly even fancier, product for the Dave/Hugo. Possibly with the M Scaler upsampling magic from the Blu2, but minus the cd transport. They have a lot of software to get right with the Poly .. I suspect there will teething troubles.

Halloween Man posted:

Thanks nq, how far from back and side walls do you have the 40s?

48 inches from the front wall to the tweeter,and 32 inches from the side wall to the tweeter.The speakers are 88 inches apart,and the room is 15 1/2 feet wide and 17 feet deep.

The blu2 is also supposed to work/connect  with the Hugo 2,another reason I want the H2...could be a stepping stone to Dave/blu2.

likesmusic posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
analogmusic posted:

I was just kidding... it is very expensive

It is a massive FPGA based processor, even much more complicated than the one in Dave, and actually / apparently transforms Dave into something else.... some people say the Dave is really in need of a blu2...... 

This approach has been used by companies like DCS, and also Naim (NDS / XPS to NDS/ PS555DR)

OK, I've gone and looked up th Blu2 and I think I understand.

so we can expect Poly's big brother to be sort of Poly grafted in place of the Blu2's CD drive. Interesting, but sadly a lottery requiremen! So my interest remains in whether Poly itself is any good as a renderer -  I am wondering about whether, if it truly is good, Poly could be used with Dave (see the Portable Audio, or lack of ? thread).

I'm pretty sure I read on the huge Poly thread on head-fi that the Poly is locked to the Mojo. But of course there's nothing stopping Chord coming up with a similar, or possibly even fancier, product for the Dave/Hugo. Possibly with the M Scaler upsampling magic from the Blu2, but minus the cd transport. They have a lot of software to get right with the Poly .. I suspect there will teething troubles.

A few months ago I wondered whether it is possible to play Poly through Dave, so I asked Chord, and indeed the response was no, it was dedicated to Mojo. However all it would need is a cable from its micro-USB output, and, if used for more than just the occasional few hours, some arrangement for more convenient recharging than recharging plugging into Mojo and the latter's charger, so not beyond possibility. (The reply was from Chord's marketing people, and of course they may have plans for a non-portable version with a bigger profit margin, now i think probably linked with the retechnology of Blu2.

My interest in Poly would be a definite if its sound quality is as good or better than my present streaming source (Audirvana on Mac Mini), especially if its library handling is better than Audiv: My portable music playing is so infrequent as to not justify the cost of Poly, however, if it's sound quality and usability make it a realistic prospect for using as the source at home, it would have the added bonus that if I got myself a Mojo I could just grab Poly and  go when I want to be mobile, giving idebtical control travelling as when atbhome. But the big unknown at present is its sound quality - expectation and reality are not always the same...

At present the highest capacity micro-SD card of which I am aware is 400GB, so if I wanted all my music collection I'd need maybe 3 cards, perhaps splitting by genre - a bit of a hassle at home, though not really when travelling, however I imagine in due course they'll reach 1GB, when all my music would fit, and even if my collection ever exceeds it I'm sure I could find a split that minimises any inconvenience.

incidentally, for anyone interested, as of yesterday there is now a Mojo/poly thread which may be the better place for such discusions.

OK, found he relevant statement from John Franks on head-fi:

”No Poly's USB port specifically looks for a Mojo USB and interrogates it to determine its on or off state so Poly only works with a Mojo. However we have a larger unit designed to go with Hugo2 that will be launched early next year.”

So Poly + DAVE = no no. But the Hugo variant, which is to be called the 2Go, might work with the Dave, then again... if they can put the same innards in an absurdly over engineered case to match the DAVE and take more money off us DAVE owners they may well do!

analogmusic posted:
 DAVINA - finally should bring us much closer to experiencing digital music really sounds like "studio masters".

It should put Chord firmly on the map for the next 20 years or so, as competitors try to figure out how Rob Watts did it. 

Chord DAC’s won’t get you closer to the original master tape, quite the opposite. They are actually extremely powerful and accurate digital synthesizers. They utilise/process information stored in memory to create the output.

I use a Mojo. With sparse instrumentation and vocals it sound superb, presumably the processor is able to cope with a small number of instruments. Combine a large number of instruments with complex rhythms, it seems to fall down, presumably the processor/memory simply isn’t able to cope.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

??????

Rob Watts: OK, the interpolation filter’s job in a DAC is to re- create the missing parts of the original analogue signal - the signal in between one sample and the next. This is done with an FIR filter. In a simple way, a FIR filter consists of a data memory (this stores previous data samples) and a coefficient memory (this is a fixed memory with all of the coefficients that the filter algorithm has created).

?????

fatcat posted:
analogmusic posted:
 DAVINA - finally should bring us much closer to experiencing digital music really sounds like "studio masters".

It should put Chord firmly on the map for the next 20 years or so, as competitors try to figure out how Rob Watts did it. 

Chord DAC’s won’t get you closer to the original master tape, quite the opposite. They are actually extremely powerful and accurate digital synthesizers. They utilise/process information stored in memory to create the output.

I use a Mojo. With sparse instrumentation and vocals it sound superb, presumably the processor is able to cope with a small number of instruments. Combine a large number of instruments with complex rhythms, it seems to fall down, presumably the processor/memory simply isn’t able to cope.

No idea about Mojo as I've never heard it. To my ears, and others' I know who have heard it , Hugo(1) is very natural ('analogue') sounding compared to, say, DAC in ND5XS. Dave is simply Wow', naturalness with amazing clarity, and improved 3D soundstaging. I've no idea if this fits with your first paragraph as I don't have access to the original mastertape for anything (and anyway I suspect that the final mastered version is often itself is not always the same as the original mastertape.

I would definitely agree that the Hugo sounds very natural indeed and yes sort of "analogue"

I wonder if anyone can help in my use of the Hugo?

I am currently using it with the volume control (set at turquoise as suggested) but am I right in saying you can bypass the volume?  and if so does anyone know the output level ?  If it's 3v, the same as 2Qute, then that will be too high for my amps

And how do most power the Hugo?  I am currently charging it and then unplugging it from mains to use, then plugging back in to re-charge.  I am also switching the Hugo off when it's not being used but that's quite a pain as it doesn't 'remember' the settings for input/volume

fatcat posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

??????

Rob Watts: OK, the interpolation filter’s job in a DAC is to re- create the missing parts of the original analogue signal - the signal in between one sample and the next. This is done with an FIR filter. In a simple way, a FIR filter consists of a data memory (this stores previous data samples) and a coefficient memory (this is a fixed memory with all of the coefficients that the filter algorithm has created).

?????

An FIR filter is a method that transforms the response of a series of sample values into a series of imaginary infinitely narrow points of time samples... this is required mathematically to reconstruct the original analogue continuous signal from a sampled series... of course this can be never absolutely accurate as you can’t have infinitely narrow points in time, hence the differing effectiveness of FIR or IIR filters used in DACs..( and the FPGA processor allows a pretty accurate FIR reconstruction filter in the Hugo with minimal electrical and mathematical noise side effects). However to be clear no data can be reconstructed if it’s not encoded in the original sampled sequence, that would break the laws of entropy and the sample theorem... effectively one would would be creating substance from thin air .... great for science fiction, but alas not for us.

Nina posted:

I would definitely agree that the Hugo sounds very natural indeed and yes sort of "analogue"

I wonder if anyone can help in my use of the Hugo?

I am currently using it with the volume control (set at turquoise as suggested) but am I right in saying you can bypass the volume?  and if so does anyone know the output level ?  If it's 3v, the same as 2Qute, then that will be too high for my amps

And how do most power the Hugo?  I am currently charging it and then unplugging it from mains to use, then plugging back in to re-charge.  I am also switching the Hugo off when it's not being used but that's quite a pain as it doesn't 'remember' the settings for input/volume

My recellection is there is no benefit in disabling the volume control (setting to 'line level' IIRC), so best leave as it come - it remembers your setting when you turn off. 

And there is no detriment to sound quality from Hugo leaving the power supply on and connected, so that is how I used it, and again IIRC that is quite a common approach. (Of course, different if you find the power supply causes interference with something else via the mains, though I don't recall anyone reporting that.)

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
fatcat posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

??????

Rob Watts: OK, the interpolation filter’s job in a DAC is to re- create the missing parts of the original analogue signal - the signal in between one sample and the next. This is done with an FIR filter. In a simple way, a FIR filter consists of a data memory (this stores previous data samples) and a coefficient memory (this is a fixed memory with all of the coefficients that the filter algorithm has created).

?????

However to be clear no data can be reconstructed if it’s not encoded in the original sampled sequence, that would break the laws of entropy and the sample theorem... effectively one would would be creating substance from thin air .... great for science fiction, but alas not for us.

Are the value of the coefficients ( created by the filter algorithm), derived from the original sampled sequence.

Innocent Bystander posted:

My recellection is there is no benefit in disabling the volume control (setting to 'line level' IIRC), so best leave as it come - it remembers your setting when you turn off. 

And there is no detriment to sound quality from Hugo leaving the power supply on and connected, so that is how I used it, and again IIRC that is quite a common approach. (Of course, different if you find the power supply causes interference with something else via the mains, though I don't recall anyone reporting that.)

Thanks IB

However my Hugo doesn't seem to remember my settings when I switch it off

Nina posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:

My recellection is there is no benefit in disabling the volume control (setting to 'line level' IIRC), so best leave as it come - it remembers your setting when you turn off. 

And there is no detriment to sound quality from Hugo leaving the power supply on and connected, so that is how I used it, and again IIRC that is quite a common approach. (Of course, different if you find the power supply causes interference with something else via the mains, though I don't recall anyone reporting that.)

Thanks IB

However my Hugo doesn't seem to remember my settings when I switch it off

Hmmm, I thought itbdid, but switched off very rarely, so my apologies for mis-remembering. With the 'line' output setting, I think the level is still indicated by the colour, just not adjustable. But for the actual level you'll have to search through the specs or contact Chord.

That is what I did, and I believe that's what a lot of others  do (especially on this forum being in the habit from Naim gear), but periodically turn off and let discharge.

However early in this thread @Simon-in-Suffolk, who had had his Hugo repaired due to IIRC a battery fault, said something about advice having changed - it would be as well to check with him.

fatcat posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
fatcat posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

??????

Rob Watts: OK, the interpolation filter’s job in a DAC is to re- create the missing parts of the original analogue signal - the signal in between one sample and the next. This is done with an FIR filter. In a simple way, a FIR filter consists of a data memory (this stores previous data samples) and a coefficient memory (this is a fixed memory with all of the coefficients that the filter algorithm has created).

?????

However to be clear no data can be reconstructed if it’s not encoded in the original sampled sequence, that would break the laws of entropy and the sample theorem... effectively one would would be creating substance from thin air .... great for science fiction, but alas not for us.

Are the value of the coefficients ( created by the filter algorithm), derived from the original sampled sequence.

The value of coefficients or taps represent the series of sample values after an imaginary infinitely narrow pulse (delta function)  is passed through a filter, therefore the filter function can be achieved by multiplying a window on the original sample stream by the sample values of the filter response (usually from a lookup table). The higher the number of taps / coefficients, the more accurate the filter response will be (the bigger the multiplication window) and therefore will introduce less digital errors to the filtered signal.

In the limit the response of the ADC low pass filter and the DAC low pass filter should be matched, but I think in practice seldom is and possibly has marginal accuracy benefit.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Yes I understand, via my dealer, the advice from Chord is that it’s best to discharge the Hugo from time to time. I switch mine off also when not in use. Originally the advice was you could leave powered up and charging 24/7.

this should be done with all re-chargable  devices,  if possible avoid charging if the ventilation at the device  is poor

Is the actual accuracy of the master and the ability to replicate it really that important?

If you consider digital photography, the equivalent of the master is the raw file. The vast majority of people don’t print or view the raw file, as, while containing all the details, it appears flat, dull and lifeless. The raw file is usually modified in photo processing software to suit users taste, or modified in camera and converted to Jpeg. My camera will output different images dependant on setting (Landscape, Portrait, Standard, Neutral), all images are different and none the same as the raw image.

Similarly, the Hugo 2 has 4 user selectable filters, outputting different sonic signatures, which is a very useful feature. But, obviously they can’t all (probably none) represent be a facsimile of the master recording or the music recorded.

At what stage does the manipulation of the sonic signature take place, at the beginning of the waveform shape calculation or later on?

 

Another statement from John Franks re the Poly ..

”Sorry guys it won’t be possible to use poly with anything other than a Mojo. As Poly reads usb back data from Mojo in order to enable itself. We will be bringing out a comparable unit for Dave and Hugo2 and even the TT too in due course.”

Given the teething trouble they seem to be having with software on the Poly it’s possibly not a bad thing to have to wait a bit! 

likesmusic posted:

Another statement from John Franks re the Poly ..

”Sorry guys it won’t be possible to use poly with anything other than a Mojo. As Poly reads usb back data from Mojo in order to enable itself. We will be bringing out a comparable unit for Dave and Hugo2 and even the TT too in due course.”

Given the teething trouble they seem to be having with software on the Poly it’s possibly not a bad thing to have to wait a bit! 

Yes, I had seen that - however my own interest in Poly wasn't getting one early, but in having only to buy one device to use mainly at home but by only adding the not horrendously expensive Mojo it I would have a fantastic mobile music solution - against which the cost of Mojo and Poly combined is far worse value, and much harder to justify for my very limited mobile use. And of course, only if Poly is good enough for use as the main system source.

Innocent Bystander posted:
likesmusic posted:

Another statement from John Franks re the Poly ..

”Sorry guys it won’t be possible to use poly with anything other than a Mojo. As Poly reads usb back data from Mojo in order to enable itself. We will be bringing out a comparable unit for Dave and Hugo2 and even the TT too in due course.”

Given the teething trouble they seem to be having with software on the Poly it’s possibly not a bad thing to have to wait a bit! 

Yes, I had seen that - however my own interest in Poly wasn't getting one early, but in having only to buy one device to use mainly at home but by only adding the not horrendously expensive Mojo it I would have a fantastic mobile music solution - against which the cost of Mojo and Poly combined is far worse value, and much harder to justify for my very limited mobile use. And of course, only if Poly is good enough for use as the main system source.

My Motorola Moto E (133 Euro) feeds a Mojo via a simple usb cable.

Nice, good sound.

Batteries work for the full day.

Ardbeg10y posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
likesmusic posted:

Another statement from John Franks re the Poly ..

”Sorry guys it won’t be possible to use poly with anything other than a Mojo. As Poly reads usb back data from Mojo in order to enable itself. We will be bringing out a comparable unit for Dave and Hugo2 and even the TT too in due course.”

Given the teething trouble they seem to be having with software on the Poly it’s possibly not a bad thing to have to wait a bit! 

Yes, I had seen that - however my own interest in Poly wasn't getting one early, but in having only to buy one device to use mainly at home but by only adding the not horrendously expensive Mojo it I would have a fantastic mobile music solution - against which the cost of Mojo and Poly combined is far worse value, and much harder to justify for my very limited mobile use. And of course, only if Poly is good enough for use as the main system source.

My Motorola Moto E (133 Euro) feeds a Mojo via a simple usb cable.

Nice, good sound.

Batteries work for the full day.

What I saw as benefit of Poly doubling at home and travel is my entire music collection on micro-SD card (eventually all on one when/if capacity reaches 1TB, but maybe on 3 x400GB now), so all my music, in its highest quality, and with the same control software, is available travelling and at home, without having to think in advance what music I might fancy, nor copy things across etc. But as indicated only relevant if Poly is good enough for home use - and, unless Chord change things, seemingly a non-starter anyway as it is locked to Mojo.

To allow me to have the Hugo switched on all the time and not to keep plugging it in/out of the mains supply I have purchased an electronic timer socket so I can plug it in all the time and just have the timer come on/off a few times throughout the day to keep the battery topped up

Nina posted:

To allow me to have the Hugo switched on all the time and not to keep plugging it in/out of the mains supply I have purchased an electronic timer socket so I can plug it in all the time and just have the timer come on/off a few times throughout the day to keep the battery topped up

I predict howls of protest from those who predict that the timer will degrade your sound quality to mush! Maybe worth a careful listen with and without to establish if this is an issue for you, especially if the timer is on the same mains circuit as the rest of your HiFi.

ChrisSU posted:
Nina posted:

To allow me to have the Hugo switched on all the time and not to keep plugging it in/out of the mains supply I have purchased an electronic timer socket so I can plug it in all the time and just have the timer come on/off a few times throughout the day to keep the battery topped up

I predict howls of protest from those who predict that the timer will degrade your sound quality to mush! Maybe worth a careful listen with and without to establish if this is an issue for you, especially if the timer is on the same mains circuit as the rest of your HiFi.

Hi Chris

The idea I had was to have the timer come on to charge the Hugo when the Hugo (and the rest of the system) is not in use, say 3-5am each day 

Understood! If the timer is still plugged into the mains, just to keep its clock running, it’s conceivable that it still puts some electrical mush onto your mains, but I confess this might be bordering on paranoia! Easy enough to test for yourself, though. 

Nina posted:
ChrisSU posted:
Nina posted:

To allow me to have the Hugo switched on all the time and not to keep plugging it in/out of the mains supply I have purchased an electronic timer socket so I can plug it in all the time and just have the timer come on/off a few times throughout the day to keep the battery topped up

I predict howls of protest from those who predict that the timer will degrade your sound quality to mush! Maybe worth a careful listen with and without to establish if this is an issue for you, especially if the timer is on the same mains circuit as the rest of your HiFi.

Hi Chris

The idea I had was to have the timer come on to charge the Hugo when the Hugo (and the rest of the system) is not in use, say 3-5am each day 

If it is a simple device, essentially a timer with relay, the any interferebce would be primarily from the timer circuitrty, whauch would remain constant regardless of whether Hugo on or off. The relay being powered  shouldn''t be a problem.

Iirc  the Hugo's battery lasts something like 12 hours, so ifnyou do use a timer then i guess only one charge/discharge cycle is needed per day.

I am the previous owner of a Chord Hugo 1,which I sold a few months back,in anticipation of the Hugo 2.Today I finally picked up a black Hugo 2,and I am listening to it right now(at work) on my iPad,actually,Antonio Forcione Quartet In Concert...and it sounds stunning,to me it is much better than the Hugo 1,but now it appears I need better headphones.My only gripe,and it is a big one,the coaxial(RCA) digital input is now a mini-jack.The thing is,I do NOT have a cable that I can run from my Core to the Hugo now,you need BNC,or RCA standard size to 3.5 mm mini jack cable.My dealer did not have one either,so I have to order one,so I will try running off my iPad tomorrow,to the Hugo>272 analog input,what a pain!,why could they not just put a standard size input in the Hugo 2?...other than that,it sounds great,and I have to figure out a way to pry my dealers blu2 away from him to try.

No quarter posted:

I am the previous owner of a Chord Hugo 1,which I sold a few months back,in anticipation of the Hugo 2.Today I finally picked up a black Hugo 2,and I am listening to it right now(at work) on my iPad,actually,Antonio Forcione Quartet In Concert...and it sounds stunning,to me it is much better than the Hugo 1,but now it appears I need better headphones.My only gripe,and it is a big one,the coaxial(RCA) digital input is now a mini-jack.The thing is,I do NOT have a cable that I can run from my Core to the Hugo now,you need BNC,or RCA standard size to 3.5 mm mini jack cable.My dealer did not have one either,so I have to order one,so I will try running off my iPad tomorrow,to the Hugo>272 analog input,what a pain!,why could they not just put a standard size input in the Hugo 2?...other than that,it sounds great,and I have to figure out a way to pry my dealers blu2 away from him to try.

I've ordered a BNC to 3.5 mini jack coax and RCA to 3.5 mini jack coax this week at flashbacksales. I have asked 3 other audio dealers - my regular ones - and none of them could supply one.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Iirc  the Hugo's battery lasts something like 12 hours, so ifnyou do use a timer then i guess only one charge/discharge cycle is needed per day.

Well I've left the timer in charge of the recharging and it worked well however it seems that even if the Hugo isn't being used the internal battery still only lasts 12 hours 'ish

So I will now set the timer to come on a couple of times throughout the day to keep the batteries topped up and ready for me to use the Hugo at about 6pm onwards each day  

fatcat posted:

If the battery only holds charge for 12 hours with the hugo turned off, the battery probably needs replacing. How long does it take to go from fully flat to fully charged.

Hi fatcat thanks for your message

I was quoting 12 hours with the Hugo switched on but not actually being used.  I doesn't take very long, maybe an hour or so, to recharge from fully flat to fully charged and showing a nice little blue light

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