Comrade Corbyn

Romi posted:

So you admit Corbyn collaberated with the enemy or are you saying he did but it was all very trivial because it was about Margaret Thatcher, and nobody likes her so its ok?

No, I’m saying that Jan Sarkocy is somewhat of a fantasist (it appears) and is “feeding the trolls / vultures” of the British right wing press.

My post http://forums.naimaudio.com/to...23#74215917412112823 includes a link to a “debunking” article.

thebigfredc posted:

A lot of stuff in the papers about the current Leader of the Opposition hanging around with top Eastern Bloc  spys in the eighties (sounds like a good title for a Fall song) although I notice they don't go so far as to actually call him a spy. I remember the Labour Party ending their conferences with a rousing rendition of the 'Red Flag' during the Foot and early Kinnock eras. He seems to have been more enthused with the Soviet Union than the European Union.

Would Corbyn not be an intelligence agent hired by Sarkocy, a Czechoslovak secret service spy? Or maybe a different Corbyn, who is now the Labour leader?

The Strat (Fender) posted:

But let’s be clear about this if the Guardian or New Stateman or Mirror had an expose on a Redwood like character collaborating with the SA Apartheid regime they’d be doing exactly the same as the leeches in the Mail etc.   

Yes good comparison from a rough and tumble of everyday politics perspective. There are a couple of crucial differences though: the apartheid regime was an insular entity not trying to impose its ideology on the rest o the world; neither was it part of a greater organisation which had nuclear weapons pointing at the UK. Corbyn seems to not given one hoot about any of that although we won't know for sure until he discloses how he was first contacted by them and why agreed to those meetings.

Ray

I cannot believe this story is actually being taken seriously. It does show though that the Tories are increasingly worried about Labour and Corbyn. Personally instead of giving this nonsense air time I would be more interested in whether Theresa May will refund some of the 'unfair' and 'poor value' tuition fees that my partner is still repaying from her unfair and poor value nurses salary.

I am not worried about Jezza at all. The UK has never had a proper socialist Prime Minister and never will.

The electorate has a right to know the past of somebody putting themselves forward to lead the country, especially if that past involved sleeping with the enemy (and I done mean Dianne Abbot). 

thebigfredc posted:
The Strat (Fender) posted:

But let’s be clear about this if the Guardian or New Stateman or Mirror had an expose on a Redwood like character collaborating with the SA Apartheid regime they’d be doing exactly the same as the leeches in the Mail etc.   

Yes good comparison from a rough and tumble of everyday politics perspective. There are a couple of crucial differences though: the apartheid regime was an insular entity not trying to impose its ideology on the rest o the world; neither was it part of a greater organisation which had nuclear weapons pointing at the UK. Corbyn seems to not given one hoot about any of that although we won't know for sure until he discloses how he was first contacted by them and why agreed to those meetings.

Ray

That’s the point for the most part I think it is stuff and nonsense - we’ll i presume so - but Jeremy Corbyn could simply prove that by just explaining what actually happened.  As it is all we’ve had is a piece from Tom Watson in the Independent accusing the media of “bile and vitriol” l

Corbyn was probably just receiving info from his network of Eastern block spies, informing what was happening there, of course not using the official British secret service because that is part of the establishment serving the Torres and not accessible to or perhaps not necessarily trusted by Corbyn.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

But let’s be clear about this if the Guardian or New Stateman or Mirror had an expose on a Redwood like character collaborating with the SA Apartheid regime they’d be doing exactly the same as the leeches in the Mail etc.   

Only The Sun (and later Times and Mail) don't have an expose on Corbyn collaborating with Czechoslovakian intelligence.  The evidence they have actually shows that Corbyn DIDN'T collaborate with Czechoslovakian, but they are repeating the half-truths from a disgruntled Slovak "spy" who has made some pretty wild, even fantastic, claims which do not hold up under scrutiny ... the kind of scrutiny that a half decent newspaper should be doing.

The most damming accusation is that Corbyn drew the spy's attention to an article in a newspaper - presumably Czechoslovakian intelligence, being (its claimed) second only to the KGB in Eastern Intelligence services, would read the newspapers.

As for Corbyn being a Soviet sympathiser - that doesn't particular hold up either.  He was anti BOTH US and Soviet Union.  He was a supporter of the Prague Spring uprising against the Soviet Union's rule over Czechoslovakia.

You don't need to have sympathy/empathy for a country to be in the pocket of their intelligence services.

Lots of informants do it/did it for the love of money, the thrill of feeling important or worse they simply had no choice as they were being black mailed.

Which of those applied to Agent COB as he was known by his handlers?

I can provide some answers to your questions Huge as you seem puzzled by your  - I am a spy/I am not a spy - status:

'I drive a Skoda, does that make me a Czech spy?'

WTF

'I've visited Russia and met some Russians, does that me a Russian spy?'

Possibly, even today the UK and Russia do not have easy relations , although the precise answer to that question depends on the reasons and nature of your visit/meetings.

'I've visited America and met some Americans, does that make me an American spy?'

No.

Eloise posted:
The Strat (Fender) posted:

But let’s be clear about this if the Guardian or New Stateman or Mirror had an expose on a Redwood like character collaborating with the SA Apartheid regime they’d be doing exactly the same as the leeches in the Mail etc.   

Only The Sun (and later Times and Mail) don't have an expose on Corbyn collaborating with Czechoslovakian intelligence.  The evidence they have actually shows that Corbyn DIDN'T collaborate with Czechoslovakian, but they are repeating the half-truths from a disgruntled Slovak "spy" who has made some pretty wild, even fantastic, claims which do not hold up under scrutiny ... the kind of scrutiny that a half decent newspaper should be doing.

The most damming accusation is that Corbyn drew the spy's attention to an article in a newspaper - presumably Czechoslovakian intelligence, being (its claimed) second only to the KGB in Eastern Intelligence services, would read the newspapers.

As for Corbyn being a Soviet sympathiser - that doesn't particular hold up either.  He was anti BOTH US and Soviet Union.  He was a supporter of the Prague Spring uprising against the Soviet Union's rule over Czechoslovakia.

I agree entirely.  However, that a meeting(s) took place is also clear. All Jeremy Corbyn has to do is recall from his recollection the purpose and what happened.  Easy. 

@thebigfredc

It's not literal, it's called reductio ad absurdum.

Extrapolate an argument [ in this case 'Corbyn met a Czechoslovak spy therefore he must be a Czechoslovak spy (or a Russian spy )'  ] to it's logical conclusion to show that it doesn't really make sense.

As an example of where this type of rationale leads, one need look no further than McCarthyism in the USA (~1950-54)

Huge posted:
Mike-B posted:

All Comrade Corbyn needs to do is publish his Stasi files,  that'll clear it all up once & for all.   

I didn't know that the East Germans ran spies for the Czechoslovak intelligence services!

The SSD had fingers into everything from everywhere,  their files are legendary, I kid you not.   

Huge,

My understanding of 'extrapolation' is an educated guess by extending a trend or pattern to predict a future or unknown value/event. Its still a guess though or, put it another way, a distortion.

I like to keep things simpler: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck - its probably a duck ( or a collaborator if a person is meeting a servant of a hostile state).

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

My understanding of 'extrapolation' is an educated guess by extending a trend or pattern to predict a future or unknown value/event. Its still a guess though or, put it another way, a distortion.

You're right ... the Sun (and subsequently the Mail and the Telegraph) have extrapolated from a name in a Czech document referencing 3 meetings with someone who by their nature would be lying about their identity, a completely fictitious narrative!  Or to put it another way a distortion.  Or to put it another way a complete fantasy which fits their desired ends.

I like to keep things simpler: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck - its probably a duck ( or a collaborator if a person is meeting a servant of a hostile state).

So as Corbyn doesn't have feathers, doesn't waddle and never quacks ... that means he isn't a duck despite meeting with a duck in the past.

Seems to me the right-wing press, and by extension their wealthy backers, are really running scared of Mr Corbyn, and are desperate to discredit him. There appears to be little actual substance to this story, but there in people's minds is now the idea he's a traitorous spy. 

In further news on this front... Corbyn says he was in Derbyshire on the day Jan Sarkocy claims he was meeting with Corbyn in Westminster - the day in question was also a Saturday making such a meeting unlikely.  http://www.independent.co.uk/n...ommons-a8221321.html

And if you're so worried about politicians meeting spies ... where's the investigation into what Theresa May might have been saying to Stanislav Yezhov?

From Wikipedia...

"Natalia and Irina Dubinin, daughters of then-Soviet ambassador Yuri Dubinin, are cited as indicating that a seemingly chance meeting of their father with Trump in the autumn of 1986, was part of Dubinin's assignment to establish contact with America's business elite and a determined effort by the Soviet government to cultivate Trump in particular."

Ergo, by the 'rationale' postulated in this thread, the current president of the USA is a Soviet spy!  This is particularly apposite as in this case the 'cultivation' was a declared intent, whereas with Corbyn, the purpose of the meeting is unknown.

Sorry, I still don't buy it; either for Trump or for Corbyn (even though I don't like either of them!).

thebigfredc posted:

Corbyn had previously admitted to meeting Sarkocy so was he telling the truth then or is he telling the truth now with this Derbyshire business?

He admits to meeting a Czechoslovakian diplomat who's real identity is likely to be Sarkocy.  Its the number and frequency of these meeting which is in doubt and the importance of those meetings. 

However the point is that if some of the meetings are "impossible" to have happened, it casts doubt on the veracity of other information that Jan Sarkocy reported back to his superiors.  But you (alone with the Sun, Mail and Telegraph not to mention the Prime Minister specifically and Conservatives generally) have Corbyn tried and convicted of treason off the back of information supplied by a low-level spy who's reliability is dubious!

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Ironically the Yeznhov meeting was reported in the Telegraph.  In any event the meeting is surely on record albeit redacted?

Well technically speaking she didn't say anything to Yeznhov (yes despite what I implied above) as he was the interpreter for the Ukrainian Prime Minister.  The "suggestion" would be that everything May said to the Ukrainian Prime Minister was reported to the Russians.

Eloise posted:
<snip>
Conservatives generally) have Corbyn tried and convicted of treason off the back of information supplied by a low-level spy who's reliability is dubious!
<snip>

Hang on a mo...    I'm generally conservative and I'm defending him here!

Huge posted:

Hang on a mo...    I'm generally conservative and I'm defending him here!

I was meaning Conservative MPs and politicians (I can look up a list of specific individuals if you wish) rather than general supporters.

thebigfredc posted:

It’s only a matter of time before Jezza reaches for his  trusty sword of integrity and shield of truth. It didn’t end well for Jonathon Aitkin though. 

I was unaware of Jeremy Corbyn appearing in court and lying...

I would just like to caution members here. Please bear in mind what happened when discussion about another politician got overheated (see the sticky at the top of the Padded Cell if you're not sure what I'm talking about). So let's keep calm, avoid making any undue aspersions, and not jump to conclusions until the full facts are known. 

Richard Dane posted:

I would just like to caution members here. Please bear in mind what happened when discussion about another politician got overheated (see the sticky at the top of the Padded Cell if you're not sure what I'm talking about). So let's keep calm, avoid making any undue aspersions, and not jump to conclusions until the full facts are known... 

PS: Also, just remember that it is perfectly acceptable to talk exclusively here in this forum about UK politics while discriminating against Americans and others with an open mind while defending Socialism and other such topics carte blanch. 

PSS:  Just testing the humour capacity or possible lack of it here.  This message brought to you exclusively by your local Macedonian content farmers union. 

Richard, isn't it about time to be fair and let discussions about all valid topics return?  Rather than threaten to ban those who hold a view on any subject (non-UK endorsed) as in any normal discussion.  Why not just hold those who can't behave or control their language or tempers accountable for themselves rather than punish the lot ?  

Corbyn is just another politician. He, like all the rest will talk the talk and walk the walk, until a wheel comes off and then shall blame the opposition. Our political system is flawed, filled with self serving people who care little for the real working man [or woman, for the sake of balance]

My advice? Stick to listening to the music you enjoy and ignore the rest of the daily diatribe from ALL the press and radio broadcast. AKA as sticking your head in the sand. Works well for me anyway :-)

I don’t hold to this view that all politicians are charlatans.  Sure their ambition can be as naked as anyone in any other walk of life but during my long career in the Public Sector in many occasions I came up against MPs who were truly fighting the cause on behalf of their constituents.   And from all sides of the House.  

Further I know from relatives who live in Camden that Jeremy Corbyn is very highly thought of   I also admire him for being true to his socialist beliefs little of which I agre with but that’s not the point    

 

One or two earlier posts have suggested that this is something of a smear campaign because the Conservatives are fearful of the popularity that Corbyn seems to be enjoying. Reading today's Evening Standard which carried the results of polls carried out ahead of the forthcoming borough elections in London, I can see what they are fearful.  If they are to be believed, some big name 'Conservative' boroughs like Wandsworth, Westminster could well be lost. The only group of electors where the Conservative vote is holding is among the 65s and above!

GTB-Buckaroo posted:

Corbyn is just another politician. He, like all the rest will talk the talk and walk the walk, until a wheel comes off and then shall blame the opposition. Our political system is flawed, filled with self serving people who care little for the real working man [or woman, for the sake of balance

I also don’t hold this view. Most politicians have a real conviction and public service duty that far exceeds that of people in many other walks of life... my observation is that some politicians seem to encourage negative unhealthy associates around them... and here Corbyn and Farage have quite a lot in common... though both as professional politicians and individuals with conviction I respect though not necessarily always agree with... and I personally think these two are a bit too idealistic..

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