Core and Naim App Updates ??

Just wondering if there is any further word on when (as well as the what detail) the proposed next main update for these will arrive, carrying the meta-data editing facilities and, ideally, 'more' (praying for increased tag fields and sorting options etc..!).............Hoping Phil and/or the key folk at HQ might be able to give a bit more info by now....? I've read and followed other related threads, but just thought I'd give a new shout out.....

I know we're in Naim speak and the initial 'mid March' date may well translate as December, but.....

With thanks, and fingers and toes crossed....

 

[I'm a US SSD owner and 'was' all set to get the Core after it was announced as I really thought/presumed it would improve some of the server/software side of things onwards and upwards from the US......But, in all honesty, I've ended up pausing  due to the current software/firmware capabilities – and then of course the current situation re transferring 'Naim's own' existing US/NS/HDX rips.....Still fairly keen on the design 'concept' of the Core, but as the time elapses I'm beginning to wonder on where this is all going regarding end user functionality etc....Seems some decisions have already been 'set' at HQ.

Realise I'm just one current 'lost' purchaser – and it sounds like Naim are fairly happy with the sales figures thus far – but I suspect there will be a few others out there with similar hesitations right now......I personally still find it very strange why the decision was taken to release the Core with not just less meta-data function/editing than the model it replaced, but none at all......

Here's hoping the proposed update comes soon and does really advance the Core into much more of the rich server solution it could be......]

Original Post

Agree with SC's concerns in this post.  I bought a Core and have made progress loading with CDs from the library (as part of a 'tidy-up' to create a core library of 'best-loved' material).  However, in the absence of the meta-data editing release (expected end-March?), I've put all on hold for the moment.   Frustratingly, I seem to have more than a fair share of Sony material in this collection, so I don't even have cover art by way of consolation in many cases.....

on just sound quality, i found that unitserve tp ps and core were quietly the same. But since one week i have an uptone audio js2 with my serve and second output to the switch, and i am astonished by the big improvement. My nds/ serve has now dynamics and prat of cdx2/xps2 i hade before, but with a lot more details, bigger soundstage, fluency and soft and very natural timbers....  

it is a fantastic upgrade!

SC posted:

Just wondering if there is any further word on when (as well as the what detail) the proposed next main update for these will arrive, carrying the meta-data editing facilities and, ideally, 'more' (praying for increased tag fields and sorting options etc..!).............Hoping Phil and/or the key folk at HQ might be able to give a bit more info by now....? I've read and followed other related threads, but just thought I'd give a new shout out.....

I know we're in Naim speak and the initial 'mid March' date may well translate as December, but.....

With thanks, and fingers and toes crossed...

[...]

In the specific case, no news is perhaps good news. I think that at Naim they must have realized that throwing at the market a server that, by design, offers no better functionalities than the old US and that is impaired by questionable design choices and unintended software deficiencies is not the best way of promoting a device that was supposed to reinvent one's music collection. From this perspective, it is possible that they are working hard preparing a major Core software revision.

I am personally more concerned by what has been announced to be on the roadmap -- support for metadata editing integrated in the control app for mobile devices -- rather than by the lack of news.

Efficient metadata editing crucially relies on a few basic low-level functionalities: copy&paste, autocompletion, selection of entries from popup lists, among others. It is well known that these functionalities tend to be rather poorly supported on mobile devices, especially on those with small screens. Metadata editing on mobile devices could perhaps be a nice bonus in a well sorted toolbox. But, for sure, it should not be the only way of editing the metadata of Core rips.

Even more questionable is the fact that Naim insists on treating imported music files as second class Core citizens: metadata editing will support modifying the metadata of Core rips only, not of imported files. Thus, far from offering a seamless, fuss-free solution to the problem of managing a music collection, the Core will require users to apply two different tools for editing the metadata of imported files and of Core rips. In 2010, this was perhaps for many users an awkward but acceptable compromise. Today, it is an unacceptable solution: Naim can and should do better.

I have explained my reservations on the Core's current design in many posts in this forum and I believe that the most awkward limitations of the current design could easily be lifted if Naim decided to do so. Thus, for instance, it would be possible to add support for internet radio and internet streaming services on the Core using well established, available solutions for the underlying platform. Thus, I hope that the lack of news means that Naim is working at a major revision of the Core's software design. This would be very good news indeed. 

Good to feel less alone in concerns around the metadata editing issue.  NBPF's longer post is very interesting, and I certainly support his concern that tablet devices aren't ideal for any significant level of editing - either in volume (how many CDs) or extent (how much needs to be changed).  I had raised the question of editing on a PC/Mac with Naim earlier in the year, but they seemed definite that the Naim App was 'it'.

In loading what I have done so far, I think I've got about 30% of discs with 'clean' metadata (may be improvable, but ok to live with) and 70% that need tweaking in terms of anything from cover art to poor titling or track data.  So lots to do.

There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

If Gazza can elicit something of a steer at Signals about where and when this is all heading that might be a helpful route out of limbo.    Frustrating, because I like the Core and the Naim ecosystem a lot in terms of convenience and sound quality, as well as its potential to be a bit less geeky for the rest of the family to use.

Excellent points NBPF. I couldn't agree more.

The lack of a separate software interface to the server equivalent to DTC for US/HDX/NS or even via desktop browser is a worry regarding decent meta-data input and editing, amongst other things.....To be honest, I had sort of put that to the side of my thoughts and 'reduced' my wishes to just some additional tag fields etc over the old models...! App will be fine and convenient for 'light' inputs and adjustment etc, but I really can't see it being the ideal solution for in-depth meta-data editing sessions – or perhaps that's the answer right there, that it's just not going to be happening.

As I referred about 'some decisions being already set by HQ', I too had picked up on some of the comments from Phil etc on what was already decided. I really don't understand the logic behind only editing the Core ripped files and not all the music stores/downloads from within the Core – surely the server should be the umbrella and gateway for everything, all unified and seamlessly presented as a whole, regardless of the multiple storage locations and type of file (Rip, download, etc) .....If the situation stays the same as the 10yr old+ US/HDX/NS models and their software then we stay with Naim rips tagged in 4 or 5 fields only and user added rips/downloads (the future arguably being Hi-res files) requiring additional software e.g. dbPoweramp, Metadatics, (even Roon) etc and two different work methods....The irony also being that the 10's of tag fields possible this way can never be presented by the Core or utilised by the App......... sigh.

It's as if the new Core is being deliberately restrained. At least, I hope it's that and that it can eventually grow wings and fly. Naim's SQ is unquestionable, the brand highly respected and a very loyal and somewhat captive customer base – doesn't it make sense to make the Core an amazing and fully fledged audio server: True Naim audio quality with a feature rich UI that kicks the likes of Roon and Minim etc etc in to touch and make it an essential and desirable part of the Naim ecosystem feeding everything from NDS downwards......? And not just for current Naim customers and fans – this really could be a Halo product.

Naturally we really don't know what the full intent and planned roadmap is for the Core from Naim and I too really hope it quickly matures into the complete audio server 'hub' it really should be, but.....

The promoted strap-line 'Reference Hard Disc Server' does seem to jar with the current reality.......

Only a matter of time before you popped up with that HH...!

Of course, you're largely right. From a brief play, I thought Minim was even more customisable....and then Roon takes it further again.....

But – isn't this Naim's very own opportunity to create the audio server..? And wasn't that inherently the point – To build upon the elderly tech of the 1st generation servers US/HDX/NS that were 'stuck' with their adapted non-propiretry software (and there really was some junk in there from what I've been told...!) and incorporate all of the modern day streaming 'standards' and UI that have now become established and so intuitive for most...? To move the benchmark forward, both in SQ and user experience..? I presumed all the R&D and 'ground up' philosophy of the new Uniti range was to allow for this....not, effectively, to go backwards..!? Emperor's New Clothes.....Literally! Perhaps there's a Statement 'Reference' server in the pipelines – featuring user drag-n-drop artwork editing..! 

Apple may remove useful ports and give various headaches when they evolve each new Mac, but at least they generally get faster and more capable with every advancing generation.....

You are absolutely right – £500 would easily give you a lot more functionality, sans ripping. But, speaking personally, I'd happily purchase a Naim badged equivalent, put my faith in the inevitable SQ standard and....pay 'Naim Tax' for the privilege to boot........It may sound a bit mad, but it really is my ideal and preferred set up – I feel my investment in all the other kit justifies this. However, it's getting hard to argue against the alternative solution(s) like you suggest. I know you had a US, did a lot of rips, saw an alternative light and sold up for the NAS and UpNP software approach......and that's the underlying point here isn't it – is the Core really providing a truly enticing and rewarding solution worth the investment it incurs....? Having purchased a late serial US SSD and also put down a deposit on the Core, I have to admit I, for one, am beginning to honestly wonder....

Sure, we can all sort ourselves out with the many alternative UpnP and SPDIF serve solutions out there, for far less expense, and Naim don't have to do anything on this front.....but, with the current state of the Core, I'm really really confused why they even bothered – it must have cost them money to put the US in new casework and remove some of the software functions...!! I'm a creative with not a particular savvy business head, but even that doesn't make sense to me...!

Anyway, all being said....my faith is still intact this update is coming.....................and it's going to rock......really!

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's always possible to load Asset onto a NAS. It does everything that's been mentioned above, and for under £500 too. Or get a Core: less for more. 

Sure, but the Core is meant to be a little bit more than a NAS running a UPnP server. It is advertised as an integrated  ripping station, music server and music player. It comes with a CD reader, Ethernet ports and with hopefully very good SPDIF outputs.

Thus, it should be judged on the basis of its capability to deliver as a ripping station and as a music server and player.

I know little about ripping stations but a music server and player should support storing, importing and exporting music files in different formats, provide flexible access to the internal data, support the most basic data transfer protocols, allow running platform compatible UPnP servers, players and renderers, provide internet radio and internet streaming services, etc. Have a look, for instance, at the services provided by the Bryston BDP-Pi or by the Sonore Sonicorbiter.

I am not saying that the Core should have been stuffed with functionalities. But that it should be possible to install the functionalities that one needs and uninstall those one does not care about. There is plenty of solutions available that allow a safe and flexible customization. 

Unfortunately, the current software system of the Core seems more like a (not very successful) attempt at porting the 10 years old software design of the US to a modern computing platform rather than an attempt at integrating available modern solutions. 

I do not need to buy a Core, of course. But this waste of opportunities is saddening. And, to be frank, I find that advertising a device that gets shipped with a 10 years old software design and partly broken functionalities as "revolutionary" is a bit insulting.

nbpf posted:
SC posted:

Just wondering if there is any further word on when (as well as the what detail) the proposed next main update for these will arrive, carrying the meta-data editing facilities and, ideally, 'more' (praying for increased tag fields and sorting options etc..!).............Hoping Phil and/or the key folk at HQ might be able to give a bit more info by now....? I've read and followed other related threads, but just thought I'd give a new shout out.....

I know we're in Naim speak and the initial 'mid March' date may well translate as December, but.....

With thanks, and fingers and toes crossed...

[...]

In the specific case, no news is perhaps good news. I think that at Naim they must have realized that throwing at the market a server that, by design, offers no better functionalities than the old US and that is impaired by questionable design choices and unintended software deficiencies is not the best way of promoting a device that was supposed to reinvent one's music collection. From this perspective, it is possible that they are working hard preparing a major Core software revision.

I am personally more concerned by what has been announced to be on the roadmap -- support for metadata editing integrated in the control app for mobile devices -- rather than by the lack of news.

Efficient metadata editing crucially relies on a few basic low-level functionalities: copy&paste, autocompletion, selection of entries from popup lists, among others. It is well known that these functionalities tend to be rather poorly supported on mobile devices, especially on those with small screens. Metadata editing on mobile devices could perhaps be a nice bonus in a well sorted toolbox. But, for sure, it should not be the only way of editing the metadata of Core rips.

Even more questionable is the fact that Naim insists on treating imported music files as second class Core citizens: metadata editing will support modifying the metadata of Core rips only, not of imported files. Thus, far from offering a seamless, fuss-free solution to the problem of managing a music collection, the Core will require users to apply two different tools for editing the metadata of imported files and of Core rips. In 2010, this was perhaps for many users an awkward but acceptable compromise. Today, it is an unacceptable solution: Naim can and should do better.

I have explained my reservations on the Core's current design in many posts in this forum and I believe that the most awkward limitations of the current design could easily be lifted if Naim decided to do so. Thus, for instance, it would be possible to add support for internet radio and internet streaming services on the Core using well established, available solutions for the underlying platform. Thus, I hope that the lack of news means that Naim is working at a major revision of the Core's software design. This would be very good news indeed. 

NBPF

Yours is by far the most concise post on this forum in regard to Core. and it follows my thoughts 100%.

Well done.

mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

nbpf posted:
SC posted:

Just wondering if there is any further word on when (as well as the what detail) the proposed next main update for these will arrive, carrying the meta-data editing facilities and, ideally, 'more' (praying for increased tag fields and sorting options etc..!).............Hoping Phil and/or the key folk at HQ might be able to give a bit more info by now....? I've read and followed other related threads, but just thought I'd give a new shout out.....

I know we're in Naim speak and the initial 'mid March' date may well translate as December, but.....

With thanks, and fingers and toes crossed...

[...]

In the specific case, no news is perhaps good news. I think that at Naim they must have realized that throwing at the market a server that, by design, offers no better functionalities than the old US and that is impaired by questionable design choices and unintended software deficiencies is not the best way of promoting a device that was supposed to reinvent one's music collection. From this perspective, it is possible that they are working hard preparing a major Core software revision.

I am personally more concerned by what has been announced to be on the roadmap -- support for metadata editing integrated in the control app for mobile devices -- rather than by the lack of news.

Efficient metadata editing crucially relies on a few basic low-level functionalities: copy&paste, autocompletion, selection of entries from popup lists, among others. It is well known that these functionalities tend to be rather poorly supported on mobile devices, especially on those with small screens. Metadata editing on mobile devices could perhaps be a nice bonus in a well sorted toolbox. But, for sure, it should not be the only way of editing the metadata of Core rips.

Even more questionable is the fact that Naim insists on treating imported music files as second class Core citizens: metadata editing will support modifying the metadata of Core rips only, not of imported files. Thus, far from offering a seamless, fuss-free solution to the problem of managing a music collection, the Core will require users to apply two different tools for editing the metadata of imported files and of Core rips. In 2010, this was perhaps for many users an awkward but acceptable compromise. Today, it is an unacceptable solution: Naim can and should do better.

I have explained my reservations on the Core's current design in many posts in this forum and I believe that the most awkward limitations of the current design could easily be lifted if Naim decided to do so. Thus, for instance, it would be possible to add support for internet radio and internet streaming services on the Core using well established, available solutions for the underlying platform. Thus, I hope that the lack of news means that Naim is working at a major revision of the Core's software design. This would be very good news indeed. 

Don't disagree with your points other than the idea that Naim are preparing a major software revision. There doesn't seem to be much ambition beyond metadata editing. I would imagine they are focused  on The new uniti range that is half a year late and when asked if it will be on time no one seems clear. I think the problem is the bizarre decision to launch the range when it was clear it wasn't remotely ready and still isn't.

In answer to Richard M, I can't give more detail on the Metadatics database corruption risk, since I stepped back from proceeding at the time.  (This was done in late Feb, when we expected the Naim App meta-editing update only a month or so later).  Beginning to feel differently now, with so many loaded CDs with inadequate / wrong data.

Richard Morris posted:
mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

ssmith posted:
Don't disagree with your points other than the idea that Naim are preparing a major software revision. There doesn't seem to be much ambition beyond metadata editing. I would imagine they are focused  on The new uniti range that is half a year late and when asked if it will be on time no one seems clear. I think the problem is the bizarre decision to launch the range when it was clear it wasn't remotely ready and still isn't.

I'm starting to feel fear the same.....though I would point out that the Core is supposedly a key (er, core) part of the new Uniti range – they should be concentrating on it just as much as getting the other boxes finally to market.....

I guess we'll never publicly know just what has gone on, but it does all seem a bit strange....

Still, can't really argue it's out of the ordinary for Naim – I'm still waiting for the advertised and promised Upscaling upgrade card for my DVD5...! 

It seems clear the ability to edit basic meta-data will come, some day – but as speculated, if it's all through the App (only) and also restricted to the Core's rips then it's arguably going to be minimal in capacity......It's as if the Core left the pits without the left rear even fitted, let alone releasing it with the wheel nut not properly tightened......!

I know Jon Honeyball mentioned he may be involved with a upcoming review of the Core, but are there any critic reviews out there at present...? Interesting if not.

ChrisSU posted:
Richard Morris posted:
mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Richard – as ChrisSU correctly states, it's the internal store of US generated rips that it is advised not to alter the file's metadata. Your own 'external' rips and downloads are fine to amend. 

As you may be aware, the US/HDX/NS rips use a external text file for the associated meta data and the info is not 'embedded' in the WAV file....It was Naim's choice to do things this way for SQ reasons, apparently. Providing you can gain access to the Naim rips, there is actually nothing stopping you embedding metadata in the files (inc WAV) with 3rd party software – however I think the advice not to stems from the fear that it could potentially corrupt the internal database, i.e that, with the external text info file still in place, it sees two sets of metadata and starts to get itself in a pickle......

Interestingly, the US apparently checks for the presence of embedded metadata first ......Ahead of getting my US, I had thoughts/plans to rip, move the files to an external store and then alter and add embedded metadata to my heart's content with dbPowerAmp etc. After some lengthy discussion on the general subject, I was expressly told by the Australasia distributor that the US prioritises metadata as such: Embedded first, CD Text File second and File Path third .....If it doesn't find the first, it will use the second etc etc..... 

So, embedding the metadata into the Naim ripped files is perfectly possible and useable, providing you are careful with the method and music stores. However, I was also told that embedding into the WAV files definitely showed a sonic difference when compared to a file without.........I've never properly tested myself, but I guess you have to wonder just why Naim went for the 'inconvenient' method re external metadata files.......

ssmith posted:
nbpf posted:
SC posted:

Just wondering if there is any further word on when ...

...

 Thus, I hope that the lack of news means that Naim is working at a major revision of the Core's software design. This would be very good news indeed. 

Don't disagree with your points other than the idea that Naim are preparing a major software revision. There doesn't seem to be much ambition beyond metadata editing. I would imagine they are focused  on The new uniti range that is half a year late and when asked if it will be on time no one seems clear. I think the problem is the bizarre decision to launch the range when it was clear it wasn't remotely ready and still isn't.

You might well be right, of course. I feel mildly upset when a company I trust throws at the market half ready products. At the same time, I recognize that, with the new uniti range, Naim has entered a relatively new territory and that errors can always be made. Thus, I very much appreciate and respect Naim's decision to put on the handbrake and postpone the release of the new range. What I find more disturbing is Naim's policy. What is the reason for not supporting Roon, internet radio, Tidal, Qobuz etc. on a new player? What does Naim think that potential Core buyers expect from a modern server and replay system? Many NDS and nDAC owners would be more than happy to connect their devices to a Naim source if this would give them a reliable, high quality, fuss-free entry point to those services: just give them access and let them try whatever services they want to try. I have no idea of the rationals behind Naim's choices. But it seems to me that, far from providing their customers with a high quality, seamless access to music replay systems and services, Naim is trying to lock them into awkward, impaired solutions: want Roon? Go elsewhere! Want MPD? Go elsewhere! Want MinimServer? Go elsewhere! Want Tidal? Go elsewhere! And so on. Many posts in this forum suggest that the most obvious consequence of such a policy is to push NDS and nDAC owners towards non-Naim solutions. The good news is that there is plenty of them and that some work very well.

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say there is no need to include streaming services in a server. For some unknown reason people seem to be buying Cores, but anyone who doesn't feel it meets their needs doesn't have to. If someone wants to lug sofas around they can't complain once they've bought an Up! rather than a Passat. 

ChrisSU posted:
Richard Morris posted:
mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Whew! Thanks.

Richard Morris posted:
ChrisSU posted:
Richard Morris posted:
mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Whew! Thanks.

Metadatix sounds like a figure from the comic 'Asterix and Obelix and the Audiophilles'.

 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say ...

Well, as a matter of fact this is not true. The Core is a UPnP server and a player beside being also a ripping station, of course. Hence it has SPDIF outputs and it can directly feed a Naim DAC, a NDS or, in fact, any DAC with SPDIF input.

Hungryhalibut posted:

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say there is no need to include streaming services in a server. For some unknown reason people seem to be buying Cores, but anyone who doesn't feel it meets their needs doesn't have to. If someone wants to lug sofas around they can't complain once they've bought an Up! rather than a Passat. 

I agree – the Core is a Server. Only, it's not even fully doing that at present. In fact, if you're one of the unlucky users with numerous 'blank' albums and songs on your Core then it's even hampering...! That's the main point here.....

I personally don't care about a lot of the 'add ons' and see many of those features are more the domain of the 'streamer' – all I desire is a truly capable/functional reference server and 'hub' for all my music, with ability to edit–sort–categorise my collection, to be played around the place with Naim SQ from start to finish – I thought that's what was written on the tin ?

It's not about mis-choice or mis-understanding. I know well I can use the NAS and UpNP software etc etc – even iTunes will give me more – and get all the editing, control and functionality I desire over my music....And that I don't have to buy from Naim.........It's that there's clearly a queue of keen potential customers (along with the early buyers, many currently stuck in the mud or worse with existing US/HDX collections – if it was a U.S product you wouldn't be surprised to hear 'class actions' being bounded about....) who would really like to take Naim up on their offer to provide the same whist having top notch Naim SQ and integration with the rest of their kit – and pay handsomely for the privilege.....What's the point of the Core in the product line-up if it can't fully do that..?

The genuine intent of this thread was to try and get a little more info and latest detail on the promised updates – I know well Naim rarely will give out much detail publicly (I lived through the AV days...) but as we're nearing 2 months after the initial date for update (and more months since the Core actually shipped, after delay mind you) I thought a few words–of some kind–from somebodysomewhere at HQ would provide some much needed encouragement to potential and current buyers......As someone said above, it's a bit of a worry we have near silence.....

ssmith posted:

Don't disagree with your points other than the idea that Naim are preparing a major software revision. There doesn't seem to be much ambition beyond metadata editing. I would imagine they are focused  on The new uniti range that is half a year late and when asked if it will be on time no one seems clear. I think the problem is the bizarre decision to launch the range when it was clear it wasn't remotely ready and still isn't.

Possibly unfortunately. But where are the weekly progress updates suggested in their first thread? It would help us all to have a biweekly update on plans and status.  

Uniti Progress Update

As to keep you informed of current news and developments regarding Uniti, we will be updating the Naim Forum weekly with progress updates and upcoming software and firmware release information within this post.

Chag -

I do not know precisely which software platform the Core relies upon but it is likely to be a GNU/Linux one. It is conceivable that Naim cannot rely on a lot of experience on this platform. This could perhaps explain the initial difficulties and delays. It is also possible that they are trying to do too many things at the same time and developing own solutions in contrast to other manufacturers that are leveraging on available, well established tools. This might be rewarding but is also very ambitious. I frankly do not see the added value of developing a Core-specific  metadata editing solution. It seems to me an unnecessary waste of resources and I think that it would have been better (faster, cheaper, more user-friendly) if they had provided from the very beginning a flexible and safe import/export interface and support for remote editing Core rips via third-party tools. This would have likely required extending their internal proprietary medadata database to cope with more general indexing schemes. But it would have brought a clean future-proof solution instead of a patchy compromise. Just my two cents, of course ...

SC posted:
ChrisSU posted:
Richard Morris posted:
mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Richard – as ChrisSU correctly states,...

Providing you can gain access to the Naim rips, there is actually nothing stopping you embedding metadata in the files (inc WAV) with 3rd party software – however I think the advice not to stems from the fear that it could potentially corrupt the internal database, i.e that, with the external text info file still in place, it sees two sets of metadata and starts to get itself in a pickle......

But wouldn't it be possible to export the internal rips, do all the metadata editing on a platform/tool of one's choice and reimport the files to the downloads folder?

This would require removing the internal rips to avoid duplicates, of course. But it would be a clean and universal solution.

By the way, this is also the standard workflow for downloads: files are downloaded from a provider to a laptop or desktop machine, edited there and finally transferred to the UPnP server and to backup devices.

nbpf posted:
SC posted:
ChrisSU posted:
Richard Morris posted:
mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Richard – as ChrisSU correctly states,...

Providing you can gain access to the Naim rips, there is actually nothing stopping you embedding metadata in the files (inc WAV) with 3rd party software – however I think the advice not to stems from the fear that it could potentially corrupt the internal database, i.e that, with the external text info file still in place, it sees two sets of metadata and starts to get itself in a pickle......

But wouldn't it be possible to export the internal rips, do all the metadata editing on a platform/tool of one's choice and reimport the files to the downloads folder?

This would require removing the internal rips to avoid duplicates, of course. But it would be a clean and universal solution.

By the way, this is also the standard workflow for downloads: files are downloaded from a provider to a laptop or desktop machine, edited there and finally transferred to the UPnP server and to backup devices.

Absolutely correct. And actually the only way to do it (as far as I'm aware) as you are prevented from putting the files back into the internal store of the US and only have access to the 'user' Downloads folder.....This was all my grand plan – but I sort of hit a wall when it became apparent the US only really handles the few main 'top level' tag fields (Album, Artist, Title, Date etc) and besides, the App doesn't display and utilise all the additional extended metadata anyway......I could spend hours tagging away all my files and have them all populated with useful sorting info etc etc but the US was never go to serve them up..........You can't use another – more capable – UpNP server to access the US controlled stores, so it started to become a head scratch and question whether it was all worth it..........You could copy all the Naim ripped files out to an 'external' NAS based store, tag them and use an alternative UpNP software server, but this renders the US to be merely a £2k ripper.......

Many swear the Naim UpNP delivery has SQ benefits. In addition, I've been told that the external text file method of metadata tagging also benefits SQ. These are central elements and 'benefits' of the solution Naim want to offer. But, presently, it seems you can only have these if you are also prepared to accept limited library sorting and editing etc......You can go many other alternative ways and gain far more extended control and user experience, but you do so at the expense of breaking the chain that Naim would presumably want you to believe is all so important.......Rock and a hard place – and seems a bit of a farcical situation. This is WHY I presumed the Core was being released to replace the US etc and bring along new and additional functions from the present day audio server scene....As I said, seems an awful lot of R&D expense to just put it in a new suit....Or perhaps it wasn't!

Gazza posted:

Just updated my core with the new firmware, looks like it was available from yesterday.

And, And...!? What's been brought to the table then.....?

Surprised there hasn't been any promotion – As Chag points out, so much for regular Uniti Progress Updates.....

Scrap the above, just seen the Naim post added 10 mins ago.......

 

 

Well, very pleased some basic editing functions have finally arrived and that you can now safely transfer previous Naim stores over to the Core..... 

So, after 4 months, we're back to at least the same capabilities of the US and HDX, minus a dedicated desktop App.....

The list of what it cannot do seems to be longer than the new cans:

Please Note:

- Editing of Composers and Conductors will not be enabled and is not currently planned as a future update.  
- The metadata editing functionality is based solely within the app, there is no desktop editing functionality.
- Only ripped CDs or CDs imported from a previous Naim server that have been ripped, can be edited.
- Music content in the Downloads Folder cannot be edited so the option will not be available.
- 'Artist Name' cannot be changed globally, only on a per CD basis.
- When a Uniti Core is updated to the firmware which includes the 'Edit Metadata' feature, if the database already includes music from a previously imported Naim collection any user edits applied on that collection will be reinstated automatically.

 

Still not even a Album Artist tag field....sigh. And if they are stating that the likes of Composers & Conductors isn't coming, then it seems very unlikely there will be much else..........Doesn't even sound like a Date tag is available now......... 

I guess I've just saved some funds – it would take a salesman who was selling coals to Newcastle as a child to come up with a persuasive argument for the Core over the US now – fancy glowing perplex base and all.....And as I find the US limiting re metadata etc, it seems the writings well and truly on the wall.......Have to say this all honestly really disappoints me.

I dip my head to HH – you called it right some time ago. I was just really wanting it to not be so....! My 'logic' upon the Core's announcement really led me to believe that Naim would slam dunk this and sail around your otherwise persuasive argument for NAS/Asset/Minim etc but, it seems as though Vardy has turned around on the 1/2 way line and whacked it into his own net......

How much is a Melco again...? 

Steve

SC posted:
Hungryhalibut posted:

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say there is no need to include streaming services in a server. For some unknown reason people seem to be buying Cores, but anyone who doesn't feel it meets their needs doesn't have to. If someone wants to lug sofas around they can't complain once they've bought an Up! rather than a Passat. 

I agree – the Core is a Server. Only, it's not even fully doing that at present. In fact, if you're one of the unlucky users with numerous 'blank' albums and songs on your Core then it's even hampering...! That's the main point here.....

I personally don't care about a lot of the 'add ons' and see many of those features are more the domain of the 'streamer' – all I desire is a truly capable/functional reference server and 'hub' for all my music, with ability to edit–sort–categorise my collection, to be played around the place with Naim SQ from start to finish – I thought that's what was written on the tin ?

The problem is that streamers (in the sense of devices like Naim's NDS, ND5 XS, NDX, NAC-N 272, etc.) are really not a suitable platform for supporting Roon, internet streaming services, etc. See how painful it was for Naim supporting Tidal on their classical streamers. On the other hand, and in spite of what the Naim officials suggest, it would be perfectly sensible to run Roon endpoints, UPnP renderers and players providing access to Tidal, Qubuz, etc. on the Core. Paradoxically, as HH pointed out in many occasions, one can easily replace the Core as a UPnP server with a NAS. This will even bring better indexing and fuss-free data transfer. But replacing the Core as a player is not so simple. It requires something like a Mac Mini plus a USB->SPDIF converter. This, in turn, means replacing a one-box solution with two boxes or four if you add linear PSUs. One can replace the Core as a player and as a UPnP server with a Raspberry Pi + Hifiberry Digi+ Pro. This might indeed provide comparable SQ in a small box. But it is a DIY solution which is not accessible to everyone. This is the reason why Naim's policy is so depressing: they have built a nearly ideal source for their nDAC and NDSs but they do not give their users the freedom to take advantage of it. This is mean. On the top of it comes the fact that, as you point out, the Core does not work as expected even as a UPnP server! Has anyone dared trying it as a ripping station?

nbpf posted:
SC posted:
Hungryhalibut posted:

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say there is no need to include streaming services in a server. For some unknown reason people seem to be buying Cores, but anyone who doesn't feel it meets their needs doesn't have to. If someone wants to lug sofas around they can't complain once they've bought an Up! rather than a Passat. 

I agree – the Core is a Server. Only, it's not even fully doing that at present. In fact, if you're one of the unlucky users with numerous 'blank' albums and songs on your Core then it's even hampering...! That's the main point here.....

I personally don't care about a lot of the 'add ons' and see many of those features are more the domain of the 'streamer' – all I desire is a truly capable/functional reference server and 'hub' for all my music, with ability to edit–sort–categorise my collection, to be played around the place with Naim SQ from start to finish – I thought that's what was written on the tin ?

The problem is that streamers (in the sense of devices like Naim's NDS, ND5 XS, NDX, NAC-N 272, etc.) are really not a suitable platform for supporting Roon, internet streaming services, etc. See how painful it was for Naim supporting Tidal on their classical streamers. On the other hand, and in spite of what the Naim officials suggest, it would be perfectly sensible to run Roon endpoints, UPnP renderers and players providing access to Tidal, Qubuz, etc. on the Core. Paradoxically, as HH pointed out in many occasions, one can easily replace the Core as a UPnP server with a NAS. This will even bring better indexing and fuss-free data transfer. But replacing the Core as a player is not so simple. It requires something like a Mac Mini plus a USB->SPDIF converter. This, in turn, means replacing a one-box solution with two boxes or four if you add linear PSUs. One can replace the Core as a player and as a UPnP server with a Raspberry Pi + Hifiberry Digi+ Pro. This might indeed provide comparable SQ in a small box. But it is a DIY solution which is not accessible to everyone. This is the reason why Naim's policy is so depressing: they have built a nearly ideal source for their nDAC and NDSs but they do not give their users the freedom to take advantage of it. This is mean. On the top of it comes the fact that, as you point out, the Core does not work as expected even as a UPnP server! Has anyone dared trying it as a ripping station?

Nobody dare rip with it because the metadata can only be edited from a phone or tablet app and even then only the bare minimum of fields are accessible..........now and in the future

Watch the price of Unitiserve's increase now.....

 

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