Do you have your system on its own dedicated ring on the house electrical supply?

I thought it would be the IOS not the screen size - however having checked my phone and iPad that are running the same version (11.2.2) that is not the case and coearly something different. Mine is also an iPhone 5, and on that if you rotate to landscape vie you get an enlarged image, not more options. Anif you scroll up a bit  you simply do not get the menu bar at the top of the post entry box that you do on the iPad - you just see the preceeding post above it. I suspect HhopLa has different view versions, detecting the type of device, phones deemed to be more limiting in space and so getting the phone version. I wonder if the iPhone 6m with its larger screen, is detected as a tablet rather than a phone. (Need to find some other software with different phone and tablet versions to confirm this).

Either was, the menu bar with the mountain is not visible on the iPhone 5, though whether there is a way to make it pop up I don’t know.

By the way, the post process described (using iPhone or computer with the mountain button visible) does not work every time: last time I tried it took about half a dozen attempts before it worked. It is so frustrating that I don’t bother with pictures unless essential to convey what I want.

S3 posted:

That’s exactly what I’m having done. 10mm SY cable to a Henly box and then three double MK unswitched sockets from there. I’m told it is exactly the same as having 10mm cable straight to the socket.

Would there be any advantage to soldering the joints within the henly block prior to screwing  down on to the cables.

Matty

My electrician came this morning to do the work. All went to plan and I’m now settling down to listen. With three new unswitched MK sockets in position I took the opportunity to rebuild the system further down the wall towards the speakers and away from in front of the radiator. 

First impressions are positive. Everything seems more natural and coherent. Interestingly I’m getting more detail at lower volumes that I was used to previously. 

I’ll report more once the system has warmed up properly and I’ll post some pics of the work and the SY cable that was used.

Regards

David

James,

I too was surprised at the cost. However, having seen the work involved - 3 men for 4 hours including high ladder work and routing cable under the house and through tight eves spaces plus the materials all of which were top quality - I'm comfortable that it was appropriate and reasonable especially now I'm enjoying the uplift in performance which I think will continue to improve as the cable burns in. When you think of how much one spends on black boxes or cables to get, sometimes negligible, performance uplifts it's really a no brainer and I'm pleased I did it.

Of course, your scenario may be much more straightforward but if you want to compare prices (if only for peace of mind) then let me know.

Regards

David 

That's a very neat job they've done, David. Glad you are pleased with both the quality of the work and more importantly, the final result. My installation is going to be simpler. The cable run is long (25m) but the route is straight forward so costs should be a lot more reasonable. I've got another chap coming in the next few days so i'll see what he comes up with 

James

 

S3 posted:

James,

I too was surprised at the cost. However, having seen the work involved - 3 men for 4 hours including high ladder work and routing cable under the house and through tight eves spaces plus the materials all of which were top quality - I'm comfortable that it was appropriate and reasonable especially now I'm enjoying the uplift in performance which I think will continue to improve as the cable burns in. When you think of how much one spends on black boxes or cables to get, sometimes negligible, performance uplifts it's really a no brainer and I'm pleased I did it.

Of course, your scenario may be much more straightforward but if you want to compare prices (if only for peace of mind) then let me know.

Regards

David 

Great to hear that you’re pleased with the results, David. The cable itself looks top-notch and I totally agree that it’s a must do upgrade, whatever the system.

Just to “warn” you, the burn-in process can be a bit of a pig, with ups and downs over a period of weeks. Best to leave some sounds running on loop 24/7. 

S3 posted:
Popeye posted:
S3 posted:

Popeye - does it sound any different?

Marginally better, as if the noise floor is slightly less but it's not much.

 

Popeye - how’s it sounding now; any improvement?

Yes definitely an improvement and an improved noise floor. One thing I am finding tho is a rather metallic sound from some tracks in vioces. I certainly didn't notice this before. Any thoughts?

Had another Electrician in today. This one understood exactly what i wanted and how i wanted it done and why i was doing it. He's happy using 10mm T&E and having the radial non RCD protected (with labelled socket - all to the regs) and came out with the right price. He's booked in for the 22nd so i'm looking forward to finally getting this done.

Thanks again for all the help. Very useful indeed. 

James

 

james n posted:

Had another Electrician in today. This one understood exactly what i wanted and how i wanted it done and why i was doing it. He's happy using 10mm T&E and having the radial non RCD protected (with labelled socket - all to the regs) and came out with the right price. He's booked in for the 22nd so i'm looking forward to finally getting this done.

Thanks again for all the help. Very useful indeed. 

James

 

Excellent James. Very pleased to hear it. 

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Minh Nguyen posted:

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Hearing how my system is improving day by day since having my dedicated mains installed I’m going to have to politely disagree with your brother!

S3 posted:
Minh Nguyen posted:

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Hearing how my system is improving day by day since having my dedicated mains installed I’m going to have to politely disagree with your brother!

My brother once said to me having something 'new' can influence our perception: wait until the honeymoon period is over and you will come to your senses. He isn't always right though. Just his humble opinion.

Minh Nguyen posted:

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Essentially it all depends on how good your mains is, and susceptible your equipment is. With the same equipment it is just down to the mains supply, in your home: what else is on it, maybe how the cables run, and possibly the layout of the consumer unit.

If you have no sources of interference then adding a separate radial circuit may have nothing to improve.

And a separate radial circuit can do nothing about interference borne on the mains supply to the house.

in my view it makes most sense to start by disconnecting everything in the house except the hifi. If it sounds the same as when everything is running then it is unlikely that a specialist supply will make much difference. And of course ithe test of temporarily splitting the ring making two radial circuits with one ending at the critical weuipment is quite easy if you know what you’re doing  (or have a tame electrician available when just the hifi is connected, as described above, would verify whether the ring itself is causing any problem.

Innocent Bystander posted:
Minh Nguyen posted:

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Essentially it all depends on how good your mains is, and susceptible your equipment is. With the same equipment it is just down to the mains supply, in your home: what else is on it, maybe how the cables run, and possibly the layout of the consumer unit.

If you have no sources of interference then adding a separate radial circuit may have nothing to improve.

And a separate radial circuit can do nothing about interference borne on the mains supply to the house.

in my view it makes most sense to start by disconnecting everything in the house except the hifi. If it sounds the same as when everything is running then it is unlikely that a specialist supply will make much difference. And of course ithe test of temporarily splitting the ring making two radial circuits with one ending at the critical weuipment is quite easy if you know what you’re doing  (or have a tame electrician available when just the hifi is connected, as described above, would verify whether the ring itself is causing any problem.

I'd love to have one of those Tesla home battery solutions. A true dedicated supply to power my system. I'd assume this would be the holy grail of power sources? Correct me if I'm wrong: I don't have much engineering knowledge.

Innocent Bystander, I forgot to mention that my speakers used to 'pop' momentarily on occasion and I discovered that it was due to my fridge freezer 'powering' up. I had my dedicated mains fitted to try to circumvent this situation and it didn't provide any resolution. I ended up buying a new fridge freezer. I guess in my case a dedicated mains doesn't offer much benefit.

Minh, I share my water supply with my whole village. I have two taps, one with 3/8" bore pipe, the other with 3/4" bore pipe. Which one fills the bucket quicker?

My Naim only needs xx amps to function, so what's the point in making more amps available? Wrong question.

Given the conversation we had on Bitcoin, I'm not expecting much. 

count.d posted:

Minh, I share my water supply with my whole village. I have two taps, one with 3/8" bore pipe, the other with 3/4" bore pipe. Which one fills the bucket quicker?

My Naim only needs xx amps to function, so what's the point in making more amps available? Wrong question.

Given the conversation we had on Bitcoin, I'm not expecting much. 

Count.D, To be honest I'm finding it difficult to interpret what you've written. I don't know anything about fluid dynamics but I assume the larger bore pipe would fill the bucket faster? Or is it a trick question? They both take the same amount of time? However, if all of your neighbours were to run a bath at the same time, there may be the possibility that it would take longer for you to fill your bucket.

I'm completely lost as to the significance of what you're trying to express in the last two paragraphs. Please enlighten me.

Minh Nguyen posted:
count.d posted:

Minh, I share my water supply with my whole village. I have two taps, one with 3/8" bore pipe, the other with 3/4" bore pipe. Which one fills the bucket quicker?

My Naim only needs xx amps to function, so what's the point in making more amps available? Wrong question.

Given the conversation we had on Bitcoin, I'm not expecting much. 

Count.D, To be honest I'm finding it difficult to interpret what you've written. I don't know anything about fluid dynamics but I assume the larger bore pipe would fill the bucket faster? Or is it a trick question? They both take the same amount of time? However, if all of your neighbours were to run a bath at the same time, there may be the possibility that it would take longer for you to fill your bucket.

I'm completely lost as to the significance of what you're trying to express in the last two paragraphs. Please enlighten me.

I think he is trying to say that current delivery to the power amp will be quicker down a 10mm^2  cable compared to a smaller cable.

However, given that peak current for instantaneous music peaks is provided by the reservoir capacitors, and so does not need to be supplied anywhere near as fast by the mains supply, I am not convinced that such extreme cable sizes actually make a difference. 

The analogy is a water supply that in the premises uses a tank, so the size of pipe filling the tank is only of significance to the water user if the tank isn’t large enough and runs out before the demand is finished. (Pipes from the tank to whatever are then analagous to the cables bewteen power supply and amp.) 

Actually, thinking of that last point in the analogy, given the lower voltages in the output cables from the power supply to the amp compared to mains voltage,, the current they carry will be higher (inversely proportional). So even without reservoir capacitors the mains cableconductor size would only be a bottleneck to current flow if it is significantly smaller than the power supply to amp cable conductor size.

Its the low frequencies that are demanding of the current. Yes, the caps as designed to hold that current in reserve for when its needed and deliver that current instantly. I.e a bass drum in a piece of music, that instant kick pulls a lot of current. If you are listening to a complex piece with lots of fast quick low frequencies the caps cant be replenished quite quick enough and effects timing and your PRAT.

The larger the supply cable the more freely and easier it is for your system caps to be replenished. Obviously, this is more beneficial and helps if other products in your house are on and using current when you're listening to music.

Back to the water principle. The more taps you have running at one time the flow is reduced at the given outlets. If storing your water your tanks are the systems capacitors. If the main supply isn't big enough and lots of taps are running the mains cant fill the tank quick enough. (water main is your dedicated hifi supply).

 

popeye

I don‘t disagree with the principle and the analogy, but whether a beating bass drum - or, more likely, that combined with sustained loud passages from other instruments, particularly perhaps sustained high level bass notes - can deplete the capacitors sufficiently for the rate of replenishment through standard size mains cabling to be the limiting factor Restricting the amp’s peak capability or speed of response is something of which I am unconvinced except possibly in the most extreme circumstances (assuming that the power amp design is not woefully inadequate)

The mains provides an moderately stable alternating voltage (electric field) that delivers energy from the power stations to the electric components that want it. Aside from the reservoir capacitors compensating for very short term overloads, the energy supplied by the mains is in proportion to the energy coming out of the speaker plus a background level reflecting heat (energy) loss.

Energy is a complex notation to grapple with, but it is fundamental in physics because it is a conserved quality.  I doubt the electrons ever travel any great distance in the mains (unlike water) because the electric field is sinusoidal. Then consider how the crystal structure of metals and semiconductors is affected by physical conditions. Most notions of what is happening are approximations. Impossible to model.

Phil

Interesting analogies aside, my reason for (finally) getting my mains supply sorted was that it seemed the most sensible route to go to makes the most of my system. I'm happy with my kit so there's nowhere to go there (apart from a possible speaker change) and for a fairly modest (in Hi-Fi terms) amount of money i can give the system a dedicated supply. My system benefited a few years back when we redecorated and i took the opportunity to  remake all the connections on the lounge ring sockets. Getting as direct a route as i can between the Hi-Fi mains socket and the meter tails (and incoming earth) seems a sensible approach to me.

Source first etc 

James

 

james n posted:

Interesting analogies aside, my reason for (finally) getting my mains supply sorted was that it seemed the most sensible route to go to makes the most of my system. I'm happy with my kit so there's nowhere to go there (apart from a possible speaker change) and for a fairly modest (in Hi-Fi terms) amount of money i can give the system a dedicated supply. My system benefited a few years back when we redecorated and i took the opportunity to  remake all the connections on the lounge ring sockets. Getting as direct a route as i can between the Hi-Fi mains socket and the meter tails (and incoming earth) seems a sensible approach to me.

Source first etc 

James

 

If the mains distribution and connected items in your home cause a degradation of sound quality -or if you fear they might - then the separate supply can indeed be an effective solution, and in the scheme of things can be relatively inexpensive (depending of course on your home layout), so is an easily justifiable and reasonable thing to do, and one that will certainly have no detrimental effect on sound quality, while depending on circumstances it could be beneficial.

For the sake of clarity, my own contributions above related to the cable size used and nothing else, purely challenging the argument that was advanced for a need for very heavy cable. However, provided the fittings are capable of taking the cable gauge, and the electrician competent with it, there is certainly no detriment in over-specifying, and if the installation routing and budget allows, there is no reason why not, so one does not need to fret over whether or not lesser cable has a less beneficial effect, however valid or not the basis of the fretting. So those choosing to use 10mm^2 - or 2 inch busbars - need have no concern.

Nah - he's doing a sterling job. I had to have a surface mount box here due to an HDMI cable running up the wall at that point. Access on the external wall (where the cable heads up to the loft) would have been difficult with a recessed box as we'd have to go to the right to clear the HDMI cable. It all sits behind the racks so no issues with a box rather than recessed. 

Add Reply

Likes (1)
DaveBk
×
×
×
×