Electricity Tuning

Mulberry,  I'm an electrical engineer & am certainly not looking for solutions, but thanks anyway.  My post was trying to understand what Bert is describing so as to better understand his problem,  I then went on to explain I understand the confusion with translating some technical terms in common use,  & although I didn't say as much I haven't heard the word or its translation of 'phase' being misunderstood.   

Mulberry posted:

Hi Simon,

the three phase supply is what we have here in Germany, where Bert (according to his profile) and I live. The spurs are supposed to be equally divided among the three phases (for a house with a total of thirty, ten on each phase). Only the biggest units, like ovens , power tools and some disc washers use all three in a so called "Drehstrom" configuration with 360 V.

Hi Mulberry - indeed Germany does provide typically three phases to houses - but i think you'll find most of the supply is at 220 volts yes? So that is a single phase - and you may well find your house is separately split across the three phases no? 

Bert's point was about his filter - and he felt it was 'correcting' phases - well if you changed the angle between two phases then it would only be meaningful to my mind if used to supply a common load such as a  split phase supply - which if a single phase was 220 volts the two phase split phase supply would have a maximum of approx 380 volts .... which I don't think is what Bert was referring to...

Hi Mike,

I have re-read Berts post and think that I had misread it the first time. He seems to have some noise-canceling device, like the earphones of that type. My original impression was that he had one th check the phase/neutral polarity of his equipment or power strip.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted

Hi Mulberry - indeed Germany does provide typically three phases to houses - but i think you'll find most of the supply is at 220 volts yes? So that is a single phase - and you may well find your house is separately split across the three phases no? 

Bert's point was about his filter - and he felt it was 'correcting' phases - well if you changed the angle between two phases then it would only be meaningful to my mind if used to supply a common load such as a  split phase supply - which if a single phase was 220 volts the two phase split phase supply would have a maximum of approx 380 volts .... which I don't think is what Bert was referring to...

Hi Simon,

yes, the supply is usually a single phase at 230 V and the whole house split among the three phases. The three phases, if used together "add" to ca. 400 V.

 The 360 V in my previous post we're a typo, for the "old " 220 V, the three phases gave a total of 380 V.

Guys made a picture and was able to also find the way it's working. To not violate the rules of the forum I will not mention the brand name or use links to the website....below you find the description...

work in parallel to the mains feed by adding countersignals to detected noise. This is unlike most other power conditioners, where noise-suppressing elements are located in the power line, between the outlet and the electronic components. This restrains the amount of instantaneous current the equipment pulls from the mains.

Some more information on the effect...

 

can easily be heard on nearly any audio system. They effectively lower the noise floor and by doing so improves the dynamic headroom in the music. Every note will appear clearer on a darker background. When used in an A/V system you will also see the effect on your screen – better contrast and fewer grains.

Some further description out of another article....

 

The *** are something of a mystery, because of their impressing effect to Hi-fi sound environment. And then again, it is not so mysterious because the construction is designed to take advantage of a well known and proven sound phenomenon - the scalar field.

In modern times we work with the concept of sound waves, waves moving up and down in a steep or flat Sine Curve - all Hi-fi systems emit sound in this way. The scalar effect however is an old and low-tech way of dispatching sound lines in longitudinal direction across Sine Waves.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wasn't saying you couldn't hear a difference, only that quoting marketing material will surely say all the things that the product does from the manufacturer's perspective. I can't try them as I gave no spare sockets on the dedicated spur. 

You can try it as well as the same concept is applied for power distributors with 8 sockets......, that's what I meant before with the royal solution....

Bert Schurink posted:

In modern times we work with the concept of sound waves, waves moving up and down in a steep or flat Sine Curve - all Hi-fi systems emit sound in this way. The scalar effect however is an old and low-tech way of dispatching sound lines in longitudinal direction across Sine Waves.

i have no idea what that means.

I missed that post,  but ......   err .......... yes

Bert,  a sine wave is a mathematical curve shown as a smooth repetitive constant form,  sound waves are a complex multi-layer multi-frequency constantly variable & very non-mathematical.   But I understand  (I think) what you are saying,  its just not a sine wave which is very specific.    I need to read up on scalar. 

  

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Ah, I get it now.  Normal sound oscillates the air molecules up and down, whereas if you use the scalar effect, then the air oscillates horizontally rather than vertically.  Or so it would seem.

The wikipedia definition of Scalar Field theory explains it all, for those inclined to grasp the fundamental physics and mathematical formulae.

However, I find myself involuntarily reaching out for a pinch of salt, as it all comes across as a bit Nordost.
Having said that, I did once try a Nordost Thor in an earlier iteration of our system and it cut out a remarkable level of hash/noise from the system with no downsides that I could discern other than a severe emptying of the wallet.  I choked at the £2,200 cost of the essential Valhalla mains cable.

Best regards, FT

I also had the feeling it was like Nordost as similar concepts and plugs are used. I still vividly can remember the demo of Nordost during a show where a guy was constantly giving you the sound differences by sticking in plugs, more plugs sounded better. And I guess the price levels are similar to what I am testing right now. Only a one meter cable on the Walhalla level equals a box upgrade......

 

As I hadn't yet considered this aspect of the hobby besides using a bit improved distribution plugs and power lines, i will definitely make some steps in this field - given the impact. However not up to the Walhalla level....

Foot tapper posted:

Ah, I get it now.  Normal sound oscillates the air molecules up and down, whereas if you use the scalar effect, then the air oscillates horizontally rather than vertically.  Or so it would seem.

 

Thats the best laugh i have had all morning. Thank you, kind sir. 

So my DBL bass driver goes in and out horizontally. Yet the air molecules magically go up and down. Well I never... well yes, I never...

Hi guys. I have now embarked on the next step in this test journey. In the last couple of weeks I have heard what just this one Sparkz thing did. Now I have an advanced power distribution for my installation. I will test it in the coming weeks and see if it creates an significant effect on top of the effect I already experienced. If so I will of course keep it.

right now the system is again running shortly after the power up - so it's a mix of the new toy and the still warming up system. Exciting times.

While I am still testing what the new strip is doing to my system......, I found an interesting piece on the effect of power cables....

Introduction: “There are a lot of misconceptions about power transmission and power quality that make it difficult for some people to understand why a power cord makes a sonic difference. The first question is – do power cords make any difference at all? There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect. Most of the thousands of people that use our power cords started out as skeptics and have answered that question for themselves and have found that power cables and power conditioners can have a profound impact on performance. And no - I do not care to debate with people that have not done the simplest of tests about whether power cords work or not. The only cases where a high quality cord does not have significant effects is when it is used with a poor quality power conditioner that acts as a high impedance to instantaneous current flow. “
Misconception #1: AC Power is like water coming from a large power tank, flowing through several 10s of feet of power hose into a component. This implies that the component is at the end of this system.

Answer: “Actually, the component sits between two power conductors: the hot and the neutral. AC power oscillates (alternates) back and forth at a 50-60 Hz rate. So power does not pour into the component at all. The component's power supply is within a complex network of wires and connectors. ALL of the wire and connectors can and do affect the performance of the component's power supply.”

Misconception #2: AC power can be contaminated just like water in a hose. This implies that once the water is contaminated at some point up stream, that is must be cleansed before it arrives at the audio component.

Answer: “As stated in #1, the component is not at the end of the power hose. It is between two power hoses and the current is oscillating back and forth. Further, current is not like water at all. Electrons cannot be contaminated. There are two aspects to power transmission: the electromagnetic wave and the current flow. The current itself cannot be contaminated but the electromagnetic wave can be modulated with other frequencies. We usually call these other frequencies noise or Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Within the various parts of a power circuit there may be EMI in certain parts that is not present in others. Electromagnetic energy can be transformed or redirected to lessen their effects.
"Some power cords use capacitors, inductors, or ferrites in an attempt to control the electromagnetic fields around the audio component. The success of such an approach is completely dependent upon the specific design and the reactance of the power supply of the component to which the power cable is attached.”

Misconception #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can't possibly make any difference.

Answer: “The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.”

Misconception #4: There is a tremendous amount of electrical interference and EMI coming from outside the home that we need to protect our equipment from. This implies that we need some sort of power conditioner or filter to protect the equipment.

Answer: “Most of the EMI that affects the audio quality of a system is generated by the audio components themselves. Electromagnetic waves that traveling through space dissipate in power at the square of the distance from the source. Further, very high frequencies that propagate through the power circuit do not survive for long. Power lines present a high impedance to MHz and GHz signals due to the relatively high inductance of power lines.
"A primary source of audible sonic degradation is caused by the power supplies in our audio/video components. Most components use FWBR (full wave bridge rectifier) power supplies that generate an incredible amount of transient noise when the rectifiers switch off. The design of a power cable can significantly affect the reactance of these signals within the power supply. The power cable is effectively part of the primary winding of the power transformer. The transition between the various metals used in a power cable and its connectors can cause electromagnetic reflections and diode-like rectification of the noise impulses as they propagate away from the power supply. If the power cable presents a high impedance to these signals they will be reflected back into the power supply where they will intermodulate, thus increasing the high frequency noise levels of the component. Most power supply filters are ineffective at blocking very high frequency noise components and much of it is passed through to the DC rails. The sonic effects of this include: high background noise levels, blurred or slurred transients and a general lack of clarity and purity of the sound or visual image.”

Misconception #5: There is some sort of conspiracy among audio designers that keeps them from producing a "proper" power supply that is not affect by power cable quality.

Answer: “This concept is like saying that if a speaker where properly designed, you wouldn't need to use a good quality speaker cable. PowerSnakes have been tested with the most modest of mid-fi equipment and the most exotic state of the art components. We have yet to find a component that cannot be improved by replacing the power cord.
"As long as power supply design is based upon FWBRs or switching supplies, the power cord will always be significant.”

Misconception #6: High-end power cords just increase the circuit capacitance acting as a high-frequency shunt
Answer: “There are some power cords that ARE designed this way. Some even insert capacitors within the cable to further increase capacitance. This approach has some positives and many negatives including the reactive interference with the way many power supplies are designed.
"Capacitance alone cannot account for the differences in a power cord's performance. There are some high-end power cords that are very effective that have virtually immeasurable levels of capacitance. These cables are usually designed around hollow tubes with the conductors inside. The conductors are several inches apart and cannot significantly affect the capacitance of the power circuit.”

Misconception #7: Power cords are just like speaker cables; always the shorter the cable the better.

Answer: “Some speaker cable designers would argue that a speaker cable below a certain length is not better. We will let them address the issue if they desire.
"A speaker cable conducts an audio signal from the power amplifier to the speaker. The distance is quite small, on the order of a couple of feet to several feet. The quality of a speaker cable is determined by how well it can transmit the signal from the amplifier to the speaker without alteration.
"A power cable on the other hand is not transmitting a signal. It is conducting A.C. power and its sonic superiority will be determined by its ability to deliver current (steady-state and instantaneous) and its ability to deal with the EMI effects of the components to which it is attached.
"Since a power cord is composed of a hot and neutral wire that the component sits between, a change in the length of the cord will increase the size of the "buffer" around the component. In general, I would not recommend a power cord that is shorter than 3 feet or 1 meter in length. But subtle degrees of audio performance are not the only consideration when putting together an audio system. Esthetics is also important especially when the system is located in a beautiful home. I just point out the performance differences so that people can make an informed decision when determining the optimum length for their cables.
"There is much more that can be discussed about power delivery but for the sake of brevity I'll cut it short at this point. On a personal note I would like to say that I was an audiophile long before I was a manufacturer of audio products. Before ........I designed high speed networking devices and can tell you that there is a lot more money to be made in the computer industry. Like many of the manufacturers of high-end audio components, I design my products for myself and for the love of music. If other people like what I have created - great. If after trying our product you prefer another - great. There is a wide diversity of preference and subjective perception among individuals. Thank goodness there is also a wide diversity of manufacturers that create products to serve a variety of tastes.”

After again some time of testing. I decided that it improved my system in such a big way that I need to keep this in place. So I yesterday ordered the advanced power distributor, with an even more advanced power cable than I have for testing...., with some support to keep the resonances in control. I don't know when the power cable will come but I guess I will be in for a nice treat. That's how you give yourself a nice birthday gift.....

Interesting information in the post before your last Bert. Thanks for sharing!

I'm very fascinated with the huge influence of mains supply, cables, connectors etc. on system performance for years. Great you're happy with the results from the advanced power distributor. From your name it looks like you're from the Netherlands or Belgium? If your power distributor is from the Netherlands too I'm pretty sure which one it is. 

Bert Schurink posted:

After again some time of testing. I decided that it improved my system in such a big way that I need to keep this in place. So I yesterday ordered the advanced power distributor, with an even more advanced power cable than I have for testing...., with some support to keep the resonances in control. I don't know when the power cable will come but I guess I will be in for a nice treat. That's how you give yourself a nice birthday gift.....

Let us know how it goes when the power distributor arrives; rather interested.

KTMax posted:

Interesting information in the post before your last Bert. Thanks for sharing!

I'm very fascinated with the huge influence of mains supply, cables, connectors etc. on system performance for years. Great you're happy with the results from the advanced power distributor. From your name it looks like you're from the Netherlands or Belgium? If your power distributor is from the Netherlands too I'm pretty sure which one it is. 

I am from the Netherlands yes, while I live already for a long time in Germany. The power distribution and the power cables are coming from Denmark a company called Ansuz Accoustics....

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

I have missted this thread. Accidentally Bert and I seems to have switched to the same mains block almost at the same time. Very expensive and very good.

claus

Yes for me a kept improving for some time and I have to say I am very satisfied. This evening the better power cable and suspension will be installed. I am really looking forward towards the impact.

Filipe posted:

Hello @Bert Schurink Schurink 

Do you have any results to share?

Kind Regards

Phil

I have been quiet on this front as it took some time before the stuff would arrive.

 

My current setup an entry level power cable connected to the top-end power distribution has already proven to be a major step up. The effects have been to my ear as big as a box upgrade or even a bit more. To use some words used here before black inkiness (reduction of noise, freeing up of the sound), better defined bass, more airy sound. In general more emotion is coming across.

Initially I was asking myself what the impact would be. As I first had a plug which I had already for some time for testing. The initial impact of the power distribution seemed limited. However after the breaking in it further developed. And now it seems to be at it's peak after a longer period. This evening I expect again a bit of a development period setting in as I am moving up two levels with my power cable.   

 

It's one of these steps of which I hadn't put a lot of focus, but it should actually have been one of the initial steps of the upgrade path. As it's at the source of the signal - it has a huge positive impact on the sound.

And I also had the suspension under the power distribution installed. As I got it all installed in one go it's difficult to define what of the improvement can be contributed to the power cable, the power distribution and or the suspension. In tests at the dealer I have been able to hear the differences and every aspect was a step up. I never had imagined that suspension under a powerdistribution unit could play such an important role.

Bert Schurink posted:
Claus-Thoegersen posted:

I have missted this thread. Accidentally Bert and I seems to have switched to the same mains block almost at the same time. Very expensive and very good.

claus

Yes for me a kept improving for some time and I have to say I am very satisfied. This evening the better power cable and suspension will be installed. I am really looking forward towards the impact.

Is that under each component or under racks and speaker? Both has a significant impact, but not cheap in a many box Naim setup.

Claus

Claus-Thoegersen posted:
Bert Schurink posted:
Claus-Thoegersen posted:

I have missted this thread. Accidentally Bert and I seems to have switched to the same mains block almost at the same time. Very expensive and very good.

claus

Yes for me a kept improving for some time and I have to say I am very satisfied. This evening the better power cable and suspension will be installed. I am really looking forward towards the impact.

Is that under each component or under racks and speaker? Both has a significant impact, but not cheap in a many box Naim setup.

Claus

Right now I only have suspension under the Power Distribution. The black boxes are on Frame so they have the proper suspension. The only thing I could add is to put the speakers on special suspension. I will have to see if I do that going forward.....First priority is now to settle this upgrade in and potentially look into room acoustics.....

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