GOTTEN

Is it from the cost of Naim ownership becoming more easily attainable in North America - post Brexit debacle for the Pound - that this word    "Gotten"  has been making more appearances within this forum ?

Original Post

If Americans want to develop their own dialect and spelling that's fine by me but don't mess  up English English!

I would expect variations from non UK posters but have zero tolerance for English people who can't be arsed to learn their own language properly. There seems to be a bit of a campaign starting to legitimise this - even on Radio 4!

Pev posted:

If Americans want to develop their own dialect and spelling that's fine by me but don't mess  up English English!

I would expect variations from non UK posters but have zero tolerance for English people who can't be arsed to learn their own language properly.

There is no such thing as "proper" English though.  English is and always has been a language which changes and develops over time; words are added or removed based on usage; not some arbitrary committee.  If you want a fixed, unchanging language and grammar Tories ... learn French!

As it happens though; gotten is in the Oxford English Dictionary...

Untitled

Anyway ... I want a XPS2-DR bigly so there!

Except in "begotten" and "ill-gotten" it should stay rare!

bigly 

Of course I concur with "British" rather than "English"  English; I was responding in haste. I was thinking that our Celtic friends may be more concerned with protecting their own languages, but much of the best of English literature has come from other nations within these islands.

Although the grammar expert/nerd I live with gets very excited over 'gotten' claiming that in correct english (in UK) the past tense of 'get' is 'got',  & believes that is the way its normally applied in UK,  she concedes 'gotten' it can be found in use in English documents dated before the americas became colonised.  (trans colonized)  

Christopher_M posted:
Pev posted:

.....but don't mess  up English English!

Er, British English.

Otherwise 'like'.

I'm English, I was born in England, brought up in England and educated in England: Ergo I speak English (as opposed to 'British English')

Americans speak American English.

Mike-B posted:

Although the grammar expert/nerd I live with gets very excited over 'gotten' claiming that in correct english (in UK) the past tense of 'get' is 'got',  & believes that is the way its normally applied in UK,  she concedes 'gotten' it can be found in use in English documents dated before the americas became colonised.  (trans colonized)  

Yes, in English (as opposed to American English), 'gotten' is archaic.

What gets (not get's) me more is the use of 'got' in place of 'have'.

The difference between 'got' and 'gotten' is the same as that in English (all types) between 'forgot' and 'forgotten'.

It is, indeed truer to English, as it was spoken before, and when, the pilgrim fathers left England. Just as they would have said 'Fall' rather than the more, er, jejune 'Autumn', nicked from French in the interim. 

The one that gets me is 'burglarised.' FFS. There is a perfectly good word in English for this, from the past tense of the verb that is the origin; burgled. To create a neologism that is uglier, longer, and just ghastlier is arch stupidity. 'Hospitalised' I can take, just about - there is no word in English for 'to be taken to hospital', but burglarised just doesn't make sense. 

"Examples of the words that “provoke such horror” were in use in Britain long before the Pilgrim Fathers sailed. In particular the US spelling on “honor”, which can be found 500 times in Shakespeare’s First Folio: 100 times more than the English “honour”

Center” is also used more the “centre”and “humor” more than “humour”, while the word “gotten” is also used by Shakespeare.

There's a programme tomorrow on BBC R4  for those interested. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08qxd02

Purists be warned!

 

I believe many of our English spellings were standardised in Samual Johnson's dictionary of 1755, and indeed he introduced less regularity into the English language by introducing Latin and French spelling patterns. However it was Noah Webster, an American lexicographer who was keen to establish independence for Amercia through language and he published a revised set of spellings for American English in 1826 when he published in A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language which forged more difference between English and American English.

I share HH's concern at the regular misuse of it's/its.

But I have also noticed the increasing misuse of an extraneous "of" after prepositions. Take, for example, "outside of" or - still worse - "off of". You can argue all you like about the rules of grammar being descriptive rather than prescriptive; I'll even forgive a split infinitive when deployed in the right spirit; but the extra "of" is a step too far for me.

Clive B posted:

And the misuse of 'there', 'their' and 'they're'.

Grrr!

Useful advice seen on Facebook, if you see someone stressed by a misused apostrophe, pat then on the shoulder and whisper there, their, they're. (As someone who's been known to go into a pub carpark to remove a misplaced apostrophe from the chalk board outside the door, I still liked that one.)

I'm another person who struggles with the seeming people start to use of instead of have.

 

Clive B posted:

Don't get me started on split infinitives! I fear I might be going to have an angry weekend.

See Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage (I am looking at a 1984 publication of, I think, the original edition) as to how the English-speaking world may be divided into five categories in respect of split infinitives. All incipient anger will vanish.

My pet hate in the mistaken use of the French word 'performant' in English to mean "of high performance" (which is it's French meaning).

The problem is that there is also an English word 'performant' which has the same derivation as 'informant'; that is, in English the word 'performant' means "one who performs".  It's also tends to be considered derogatory, and so it's more likely to be used when referring to circus performers or street entertainers.

I find it amusing when someone intends to praise something, and then uses a derogatory term to describe it.

Huge posted:
Mike-B posted:

Although the grammar expert/nerd I live with gets very excited over 'gotten' claiming that in correct english (in UK) the past tense of 'get' is 'got',  & believes that is the way its normally applied in UK,  she concedes 'gotten' it can be found in use in English documents dated before the americas became colonised.  (trans colonized)  

Yes, in English (as opposed to American English), 'gotten' is archaic.

Am I right in thinking another English word is now archaic. 'Labour' ?

I'll get my coat .................

My loving family are descending into a habit of placing an unnecessary "at" at the the end of many sentences. "What time is the bus at?" "Where did you put the keys at?" They're all doing it. It drives me nuts. And don't get me started on the explosions of "likes" in our childrens' speech. Thankfully, that may be dying down a little; or perhaps I'm getting used to it.

TOBYJUG posted:

Often come across " An Historical.." in newspaper journalism,  only makes sense if read with a strong cockney accent. Or am I missing something as I do struggle sometimes.

No, you're not. Here's what the BBC style guide says ('style' as in correct usage of language, rather than whether brown shoes are acceptable with a business suit...):

A/an

Pronunciation is the key. Use ‘an’ before any word or abbreviation beginning with a vowel sound, including words beginning with a silent ‘h’ (as far as we know there are only four of these: hour, honour, heir, honest and their derivatives). You use ‘a’ with consonant sounds (eg: unicorn), including words beginning with an ‘h’ which is pronounced (eg: hat, hotel).

I recently ended up in a discussion between Americans and some Englishmen how to write 'fulfilment'. The Americans won because their budget was bigger.

On my current project we got the 'word of the week' for a year or so. We agreed as software designers to include certain words in our designs. In one week, all designs started with the word 'hitherto'. We had great fun.

Another nice one was a certain Indian guy said 'I'll revert to you' (meaning I get back to you). An English guy said promptly 'I'd wish you could revert to me, that would be an enormous improvement'.

That's what I see as non native English speaker as getting close to your kind of (appreciated) humor (sorry, forgot the 'u'). Quite rude and insulting phrases. Brilliant!

Pev posted:

Of course I concur with "British" rather than "English"  English; I was responding in haste.

I completely get it. My preference is for the Inverness accent. (I've just looked at that sentence again asked myself if there is such a thing as an Inverness accent? Not sure. So I've decided that my preference is for English as it is spoken in Inverness).

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