GOTTEN

Pev posted:

If Americans want to develop their own dialect and spelling that's fine by me but don't mess  up English English!

I would expect variations from non UK posters but have zero tolerance for English people who can't be arsed to learn their own language properly. There seems to be a bit of a campaign starting to legitimise this - even on Radio 4!

Can't be ...what?

Hungryhalibut posted:
Huge posted:
Clive B posted:

And the misuse of 'there', 'their' and 'they're'.

Grrr!

Not so bad if their there only mistakes they're.  

Then there's your and you're. I saw one today on the Forum somewhere - your welcome. Your welcome what?

Clearly it's your welcome, as opposed to my welcome.

"Gotten" is not the past tense of the verb "get" in American English, it's the past participle. Much like "dreamed" versus "dreamt", so it demands a modifier or auxiliary verb such as a tense of "have". The modifier presents a stronger or more effective sense of time and possession. "I dreamed of such riches" versus "I had once dreamt of such riches". "I got the concert tickets" versus "I had already gotten the concert tickets". Sounds perfectly proper with more power to my American ears.

On the subject, I always find the British use of a "t" as opposed to a "ed" for past tenses of a verb quirky to my ears. "He smelt like a fish" versus "He smelled like a fish". Then again, most Americans would say "The dealer dealt the cards" versus "The dealer dealed the cards".

Horses for courses of course and the 40+ responses to this thread indicate to me how this forum is increasingly becoming more about digressive topics like politics, grammatics, and proper etiquette for modes of transportation than basic hi-fi and music.

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

Over here in Canada, we get our cars winterized in the fall. But in spring, no one talks about getting them summerized.

........  & thats another deviation from english-english,  we have winterised,  with an 'ess'.  And english Z is pronounced 'zed',  in N.A. its pronounced 'zee'.     We also have autumn,  not fall.     

"I had already gotten the concert tickets"
vs.
"I had already got the concert tickets"

Both are valid.  However, whereas the second form is more common in English, the first form is more common in American English.


On the other hand "I already had the concert tickets" is slightly different in meaning (less specific).

joerand posted: this forum is increasingly becoming more about digressive topics like politics, grammatics, and proper etiquette for modes of transportation than basic hi-fi and music.

Succinct differentiations and assimilations is hardly digressive.  Especially in regards to the basics of hifi and music appreciation.  

Huge posted:

"I had already gotten the concert tickets"
vs.
"I had already got the concert tickets"

Both are valid.  However, whereas the second form is more common in English, the first form is more common in American English.


On the other hand "I already had the concert tickets" is slightly different in meaning (less specific).

More common is the " I've got the tickets already ".  A mash up of both and all options.

Okay... so sometimes I jest about spelling and punctuation; but at the end of the day written word should be used to express ideas.  What is important is that what you write gets the idea across clearly but without excess waffle. 

I couldn't care less if people use got or gotten; badly use they're and their and there or put apostrophes in the wrong place so long as what they write is ultimately understandable. That doesn't mean punctuation isn't important - a long unpunctuated sentence without splitting into paragraphs is very difficult to read / understand; but its secondary to the message  

What does annoy me (and not suggesting it is happening here) is when people completely ignore the message and criticise the writer for missing an apostrophe or a capital letter. 

TOBYJUG posted:
Huge posted:

"I had already gotten the concert tickets"
vs.
"I had already got the concert tickets"

Both are valid.  However, whereas the second form is more common in English, the first form is more common in American English.


On the other hand "I already had the concert tickets" is slightly different in meaning (less specific).

More common is the " I've got the tickets already ".  A mash up of both and all options.

That doesn't mean the same thing though.  The first two refer to the action of getting the tickets in the past (past tense, perfect aspect), the other to the getting of the tickets with ongoing possession of the tickets (past tense, imperfect aspect).

Huge posted:
TOBYJUG posted:
Huge posted:

"I had already gotten the concert tickets"
vs.
"I had already got the concert tickets"

Both are valid.  However, whereas the second form is more common in English, the first form is more common in American English.


On the other hand "I already had the concert tickets" is slightly different in meaning (less specific).

More common is the " I've got the tickets already ".  A mash up of both and all options.

That doesn't mean the same thing though.  The first two refer to the action of getting the tickets (in the past), the other to the ongoing possession of the tickets.

Maybe even better to say, "I had already purchased/acquired/obtained [according to whether the act was actually performed by the subject of the sentence] the tickets".

Eloise posted:

Okay... so sometimes I jest about spelling and punctuation; but at the end of the day written word should be used to express ideas.  What is important is that what you write gets the idea across clearly but without excess waffle. 

I couldn't care less if people use got or gotten; badly use they're and their and there or put apostrophes in the wrong place so long as what they write is ultimately understandable. That doesn't mean punctuation isn't important - a long unpunctuated sentence without splitting into paragraphs is very difficult to read / understand; but its secondary to the message  

What does annoy me (and not suggesting it is happening here) is when people completely ignore the message and criticise the writer for missing an apostrophe or a capital letter. 

Eats shoots and leaves?

Huge posted:

Eats shoots and leaves?

Clive B posted:

Let's eat grandma!

Not sure if you were trying to help me make my point, or counter it.  But in case the latter...

If someone is writing about a Panda, then on reading a sentence do you really need the appropriate punctuation to know that we are describing a panda's diet as consisting of shoots and leaves, and not saying that he's a machine gun packing mofo?  No I admit that should we be talking about a human who was a little strange then out of context the statement could be ambiguous.

The second even more so doesn't need the punctuation for us to know what is meant.  Again unless you are a bit weird in the head, you know that the statement is a child asking for food, not an incestuous cannibal. 

The context is all important!

TOBYJUG posted:

Is it from the cost of Naim ownership becoming more easily attainable in North America - post Brexit debacle for the Pound - that this word    "Gotten"  has been making more appearances within this forum ?

No. Naim is ridiculously overpriced in the USA. Almost as if Naim feels the £ is still 1.60$.

It's a good job some of you don't live in the north-west of England!

In some parts, you may be asked "Os't gitten it?" which is likely a contracted form of "Hast thou gotten it?" and means "Have you brought it with you?", "Do you understand?" or "Have you retrieved it (from a place or situation where it was unseen)?" etc. depending on context.

Dialect or regional forms of these modes of speech have been around for centuries, often before any attempt at standardisation.

My paternal grandfather used to greet me with some variation of "How art thee?".

Long live diversity.

Regards,

Vlad

VladtheImpala posted:

It's a good job some of you don't live in the north-west of England!

In some parts, you may be asked "Os't gitten it?" which is likely a contracted form of "Hast thou gotten it?" and means "Have you brought it with you?", "Do you understand?" or "Have you retrieved it (from a place or situation where it was unseen)?" etc. depending on context.

Dialect or regional forms of these modes of speech have been around for centuries, often before any attempt at standardisation.

My paternal grandfather used to greet me with some variation of "How art thee?".

Long live diversity.

Regards,

Vlad

Aye, reet gradely.

Richard Dane posted:

Despite spending some years of my education Stateside, it still grates with me when I hear somebody use "dove" in place of "dived".  I believe that "dove" is now accepted in the UK as well as the US, but it still sounds wrong to me.

I used to say 'dove' to be punny...

How does 'sat' instead of 'sitting' sit with you? 

Clive B posted:

Another one which irritates me is the persistent use of "you and I" instead of the objective pronoun, "you and me".

I'm slightly ambivalent about that, people are trying to be correct which I think I should be kinder to than a lot of the lazy usages commented on above, but at the same time the people who know me best spot the pained twitch every time I hear the misuse.

The English language is full of idiosyncrasies. For example a painting may be "hung" whereas murderers used to be "hanged". 

We use the word "fewer" when referring to items which can be individualised/counted and the word "less" when referring to an homogenised quantity or idea/concept. E.g. fewer rules have resulted in less "red tape".

 

 

sjbabbey posted:

The English language is full of idiosyncrasies. For example a painting may be "hung" whereas murderers used to be "hanged". 

We use the word "fewer" when referring to items which can be individualised/counted and the word "less" when referring to an homogenised quantity or idea/concept. E.g. fewer rules have resulted in less "red tape".

 

 

Before I left London nearly 10 years ago, I was amused by the fact that in my 2 local supermarkets, Tesco had "8 item or less" queues, while Waitrose had "6 items or fewer". Know your customers, or as they say on Radio 4 panel shows "There'll be letters!".

Eoink posted:
sjbabbey posted:

The English language is full of idiosyncrasies. For example a painting may be "hung" whereas murderers used to be "hanged". 

We use the word "fewer" when referring to items which can be individualised/counted and the word "less" when referring to an homogenised quantity or idea/concept. E.g. fewer rules have resulted in less "red tape".

 

 

Before I left London nearly 10 years ago, I was amused by the fact that in my 2 local supermarkets, Tesco had "8 item or less" queues, while Waitrose had "6 items or fewer". Know your customers, or as they say on Radio 4 panel shows "There'll be letters!".

So could they be accused of fewer-majesty?

sjbabbey posted:

 

We use the word "fewer" when referring to items which can be individualised/counted and the word "less" when referring to an homogenised quantity or idea/concept. E.g. fewer rules have resulted in less "red tape".

 

 

If only it were so!

Innocent Bystander posted:

One that continually grates with me is "me neither" instead of the correct (in many cases) "nor I".

And I also find the recently very popular "thus far" in place of "so far" to be irritating, although having looked it up I gather it is acceptable English.

I've read this far and no further.

Is that OK?  Somehow it seems more specific to me.

Innocent Bystander posted:

One that continually grates with me is "me neither" instead of the correct (in many cases) "nor I"

"Nor me" would, of course, be quite acceptable where you were the object of the sentence, e.g. "It was given neither to her, nor me". 

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