If you could "DR" an LP12, would it sound like this...

Over the last five years I've trodden the LP12 path. I've had some interesting moments as I took this journey. Certain things have remained constant. 

I've kept a rewired Ittok, and a Lyra Delos. I've always had a Cirkus based player, it's always run through a Superfine, with a HiLine 4-5 coming out of the PSU (have moved from Hicap to Supercap on this). 

There are some Linn things I've never had on the player. It has always had a third party top-plate (first a Khan, then a Karmen). It's also always had a third party subchassis (firstly a RubiKon, and then a Tangerine Plateau). I've added a Trampolin 2, a T-Kable, airplug-Z, sKale counterweight, move the Hercules offboard into a Mose. 

 

All the while the humble Ittok/Delos combination has stayed. 

Why?

Because I just love the way that this combination times. 

 

So, I had a sum of money come my way and was pondering what to do next. The arm and cartridge are staying. I'd heard a friend's similarly equipped player (albeit RubiKon and DV20) with a Radical. It was very VERY good. An easy comparison too as my Dad runs a D20/Ittok player with a Mose.  

So, I signed up for this Radical thingy and made arrangements for the install. As always I wanted the infamous Derek to do the job, and as Tangerine is just a couple of miles away, this was scheduled for today. 

Knowing how Derek tends to catch my interest in other upgrades, I also looked into his new Stiletto plinth. 

Before the install I'd popped round to see Mark and got a taste of what it would bring, albeit on an Aro/geddon player. It was impressive enough that I signed up for that too. 

I'm disappointed. 

 

In MYSELF. 

 

Because I usually find no trouble in expressing my experiences after an upgrade. 

I'd seen a post by another Stiletto owner on another forum. There was multiple usage of the word "gobsmacked". 

 

I'm trying to find other words, but it's difficult. 

Can I separate the Radikal from the Stiletto  plinth and express the two steps individually?

 

Not really. I know that I'm hearing an awful lot more than I've heard on other Radikal players.  But that's missing the point. 

I'm hearing more information and better music than I've EVER heard on a HiFi system. 

I had expectations based on other players, I've heard a full SE player, and I was comfy with what I thought I'd get for a very serious outlay. 

 

I could have just opted for a Lyra Etna cartridge instead. 

 

Hang on. What am I doing typing this?

 

Stuff it, I'm going to put another record on. 

Original Post

ooh x 2!

"jelly", as the young people say.

i'm keen to hear your thoughts on Radikal vs. Armageddon... i think the future may hold such an upgrade for me, too.

and on an utterly superficial note, seems like the brushed finish of the Stiletto would match Naim gear nicely.

Should also add, I referred to it as Derek's new Stiletto. 

Like Morecombe and Wise, fish and chips, and many other combos, Tangerine is a double-act, and without both of these guys the Stiletto wouldn't exist. So credit where credit is due.. Derek and Mark's Tangerine Stiletto!  

 

As to the 'geddon/Radikal... I reckon the Armageddon is brilliant, but there are two things it won't do. 

 

1) 45rpm (which I need). 

2) Reduce the noise floor by removal of an ac motor and magnetic field from close proximity to the path of the Tonearm. 

 

Because of point 1, an Armageddon was never going to be on my list. 

 

And the Aro. I can see the appeal, I get why folk love it, and I find it really interesting, but I don't adore it, and one day you put a foot wrong, it has a wobble and things get expensive. Kinda reminds me of a girl I met in my 20's!!!

 

The finish, by the way, is sublime without being distracting. In the early evening light it kind of glistened, but as I just sat and played music it withdrew into mimicking a black ash plinth, until each time I had to flip a record. At this point it just sat there sucking the light out of the room like Darth Vader's LP12. 

 

Nothing like an LP12 especially with DC power via Radikal. I had mine done a year back and have the original Tiger Paw Khan a la Derek. Along with the Keel these upgrades make a perfect foundation for the EKOS SE and Kandid. I did try the Origin Live drive belt but quickly reverted to the stock black elastic band. The whole deck also seems less prone to go out of tune than earlier iterations too.

 

This was shot whilst it was on the jig, and before the test-play or taking it home.

 

I'll get some shots done over the weekend to show it in-situ.

 

Ref the fluted variant on the "blue" place, also gorgeous, but I've never been a fan of that look (reminds me of Mercedes rear lights, which isn't a bad thing, but then I expect it to be red at one end and orange at the other!)

Each to his own and all that.  It would be interesting to compare your "Franken-Linn" to a thoroughbred LP12 of equivalent value using the "tune-dem" approach advocated by Linn themselves.  IMHO if one buys a Rolls Royce there is little to be gained by adding Lexus parts to it.  Purely a personal view of course.

Mike1380 posted:

 

This was shot whilst it was on the jig, and before the test-play or taking it home.

 

I'll get some shots done over the weekend to show it in-situ.

 

Ref the fluted variant on the "blue" place, also gorgeous, but I've never been a fan of that look (reminds me of Mercedes rear lights, which isn't a bad thing, but then I expect it to be red at one end and orange at the other!)

Looks great Mike. There's life in the old fruit box yet 

bluedog posted:

Each to his own and all that.  It would be interesting to compare your "Franken-Linn" to a thoroughbred LP12 of equivalent value using the "tune-dem" approach advocated by Linn themselves.  IMHO if one buys a Rolls Royce there is little to be gained by adding Lexus parts to it.  Purely a personal view of course.

Thankyou.

 

It's been a long time since someone managed to so comprehensively and dismissively offend me in so few words. If you'd just left it at the first two sentences, you might have provoked some form of measured debate.

 

Instead you took a shot at my decision, and the integrity of those who produced the parts that I chose.

 

You also assumed (incorrectly) that I haven't listened to the options, and hence are that I was foolish enough to buy blind. Also incorrect. Needless!

 

 

It reminds me why I don't post on here on a very regular basis.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Does the name on the sub-chassis imply one can only play Tangerine Dream's albums on it?

Bloody hell, I hope not!!!!!!

 

So far Floyd, Iced Earth, Hugh Laurie, AC DC, Metallica, Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Rush, Fleetwood Mac, Stiltskin and Ray Parker Jnr (yes, Ghostbuster original 7" single) have all had the run on the platter.

 

All sounded amazing!

Mike1380 posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:

Does the name on the sub-chassis imply one can only play Tangerine Dream's albums on it?

Bloody hell, I hope not!!!!!!

 

So far Floyd, Iced Earth, Hugh Laurie, AC DC, Metallica, Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Rush, Fleetwood Mac, Stiltskin and Ray Parker Jnr (yes, Ghostbuster original 7" single) have all had the run on the platter.

 

All sounded amazing!

Trying to spot the odd man out in that list - must be Hugh Laurie (have both his albums on a CD)

Adam Zielinski posted:
Mike1380 posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:

Does the name on the sub-chassis imply one can only play Tangerine Dream's albums on it?

Bloody hell, I hope not!!!!!!

 

So far Floyd, Iced Earth, Hugh Laurie, AC DC, Metallica, Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Rush, Fleetwood Mac, Stiltskin and Ray Parker Jnr (yes, Ghostbuster original 7" single) have all had the run on the platter.

 

All sounded amazing!

Trying to spot the odd man out in that list - must be Hugh Laurie (have both his albums on a CD)

Let Them Talk is a masterpiece. Big fan of the man's work, in every category.

james n posted:
Mike1380 posted:

 

This was shot whilst it was on the jig, and before the test-play or taking it home.

 

I'll get some shots done over the weekend to show it in-situ.

 

Ref the fluted variant on the "blue" place, also gorgeous, but I've never been a fan of that look (reminds me of Mercedes rear lights, which isn't a bad thing, but then I expect it to be red at one end and orange at the other!)

Looks great Mike. There's life in the old fruit box yet 

Dunno if you can call it a Fruitbox anymore without any wood in the equation....  feels more like the kind of engineering integrity you'd want on a submarine door!

 

But not sure that "sub-hatch" is a fitting term 

bluedog posted:

Each to his own and all that.  It would be interesting to compare your "Franken-Linn" to a thoroughbred LP12 of equivalent value using the "tune-dem" approach advocated by Linn themselves.  IMHO if one buys a Rolls Royce there is little to be gained by adding Lexus parts to it.  Purely a personal view of course.

Bluedog - I'm not sure this is the right way round. Per most dealers/owners (many who post here), the level of mods from after-market providers is now driving out much enhanced performance from the LP12 (as a generic moniker). IIRC, there was a time when the steel top-plate and the flex it allowed, was said to benefit the sound - that seems to have been well & truly de-bunked some time back.

Staying with the car analogies, I think a standard high-spec Linn LP12 is now being given the (Merc) AMG treatment by others. You listen with your ears and you pays your money as you see fit.

To add some variables in to this, per trusted views from friends, I understand some of the non-Linn plinths can adversely affect the sound, so it's not a one-way street.

"You listen with your ears and you pays your money as you see fit."  

That's absolutely right and why I prefaced the post with "IMHO".  IME it can bet very difficult in demo to distinguish between "different" and "better"- only long term usage often reveals what the "upgrade" has truly achieved as one works one's way through familiar recordings.  But perhaps that's just my problem.

Linn is one of the most successful UK companies built one more than 30 years with the support of happy customers.  I've always worked on the basis that if something could be improved, like the flexing top-plate, they would do it - as they have with sub-chassis, power supply, arm and cartridge etc. 

As a matter of interest rumour has it that some time back Linn prototyped solid machined plinths and presented one to their esteemed founder. It was discreetly put aside in preference for the traditional "fruit box", apparently.  

Bluedog - I seem to recollect a solid plinth/top-plate version some time back. May have been a 'special' (of sorts). I agree re the 'sounds better' aspect - like you, I like jazz and all the foibles which sometimes come with. I would not want my '12' to become a quasi-CD player, and lose the warmth-factor.

What I don't understand, and I think has been raised before, is why the after-market evolution isn't being addressed by Linn. I'll stop here as Forum Rules likely preclude wider discussion cum speculation.

bluedog posted:
 IME it can bet very difficult in demo to distinguish between "different" and "better"- only long term usage often reveals what the "upgrade" has truly achieved as one works one's way through familiar recordings.

 

As a matter of interest rumour has it that some time back Linn prototyped solid machined plinths and presented one to their esteemed founder. It was discreetly put aside in preference for the traditional "fruit box", apparently.  

Oh, now I understand.

 

The Tune-dem you advocated earlier, is worthless, becuase we can only hear different, not better.

Also, using the words "rumour has it" followed by the closer of "apparently" is sufficient to qualify denigration of items you've never heard, and apparently have no interest in.

If you find my player and discussion of it so distasteful, please don't hesitate to lurk in another thread.

 

Incidentally, I'd never class an LP12, at whatever level (incuding full SE Dynamik) as a Rolls Royce. I've driven several of those over the years and their unparalleled achievement is in isolating one from things. A great record player involves one in the music, and it certainly doesn't keep you at a distance from it.

Mike1380 posted:
bluedog posted:
 IME it can bet very difficult in demo to distinguish between "different" and "better"- only long term usage often reveals what the "upgrade" has truly achieved as one works one's way through familiar recordings.

 

As a matter of interest rumour has it that some time back Linn prototyped solid machined plinths and presented one to their esteemed founder. It was discreetly put aside in preference for the traditional "fruit box", apparently.  

Oh, now I understand.

 

The Tune-dem you advocated earlier, is worthless, becuase we can only hear different, not better.

Also, using the words "rumour has it" followed by the closer of "apparently" is sufficient to qualify denigration of items you've never heard, and apparently have no interest in.

If you find my player and discussion of it so distasteful, please don't hesitate to lurk in another thread.

 

Incidentally, I'd never class an LP12, at whatever level (incuding full SE Dynamik) as a Rolls Royce. I've driven several of those over the years and their unparalleled achievement is in isolating one from things. A great record player involves one in the music, and it certainly doesn't keep you at a distance from it.

I'm sorry you have construed this as a personal attack.  It's a forum - it's where people engage in (hopefully) lively debate. I've qualified everything with "IMHO" and, as far as I know, we're still allowed to express our opinions in the UK (at least for the time being).  You might think my views are utterly worthless and you're perfectly entitled to hold that opinion. Don't be so sensitive.

Happy Listener posted:

Bluedog - I seem to recollect a solid plinth/top-plate version some time back. May have been a 'special' (of sorts). I agree re the 'sounds better' aspect - like you, I like jazz and all the foibles which sometimes come with. I would not want my '12' to become a quasi-CD player, and lose the warmth-factor.

What I don't understand, and I think has been raised before, is why the after-market evolution isn't being addressed by Linn. I'll stop here as Forum Rules likely preclude wider discussion cum speculation.

HL - At the risk of testing the moderator's patience I would speculate that much of Linn's attention is focused on their high value digital and Exakt systems.  I'm sure when they think there are significant improvements to be made in changing things, like the Radikal, Keel and Kandid, they introduce them; perhaps with other more "marginal" improvements they put them further down on the to do list.  Who knows?

It certainly looks the business and given the pedigree of the guys involved in creating and endorsing this I certainly wouldn't be drawing conclusions about the sound quality or value without applying my own ears for an extended period of time.

It's out of my price range at the moment but I'd certainly give it a go if that was to change. Unlike many after market solutions this strikes a chord that feels true to the enginering principles that were at the heart of the LP12 from the beginning. If Linn didn't persue this route maybe they felt the cost was too high (yes even Linn!!) or maybe, god forbid, Linn weren't able to produce one to the same standard.

Mike1380 posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:

Does the name on the sub-chassis imply one can only play Tangerine Dream's albums on it?

Bloody hell, I hope not!!!!!!

 

So far Floyd, Iced Earth, Hugh Laurie, AC DC, Metallica, Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Rush, Fleetwood Mac, Stiltskin and Ray Parker Jnr (yes, Ghostbuster original 7" single) have all had the run on the platter.

 

All sounded amazing!

So you're saving Hendrix and Led Zep for later then, Mike?  

Iron Cobra posted:

If you could "DR" an LP12, would it sound like this...

A DR LP12 would be a LP12SE (keel, radikal, Ekos SE, Kandid, urika) with Karmen top plate, sKale counterweight and Super Lumina RCA/DIN interconnect.

Mine sounds mighty fine and wouldn't change it 

Point taken ( and sounds like a fantastic player). 

Suppose the pedant in me would counter that for the true DR experience it'd need a Superline/ SupercapDR...

In which case I'm nearly there. 8). Just need to trade in the Olive Supercap for a current one. Someday.....

Chris Dolan posted:

I like the look of the fluted version even more - and I've been told that it could be produced with a silver "top plate" and the rest black. Very very tempting if it does the sonic business 

 Really, Chris? I've seen photographs of your Woodsong wenge plinth in the Kabin, which has to be one of the finest examples around. You'd be off your rocker to change that gorgeous grain for a black anodised aluminium plinth, irrespective of any sound improvement!

IMHO of course. 

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KlydeMDS
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