Macbook Pro 2016 - a pointless rant

The Macbook Pro 2016 (15" touchbar) has been the fastest and most reliable mac I've ever owned, but the keyboard's gone from a mild (loud clattering) nuisance to a flat out irritation. One spec of dust under the keys and they clog up. And while that can be remedied with some canned air, slowly but steadily, keys have started to become unresponsive and require a hard press to register (if at all). I'm at the stage where I'm considering bringing it in for a keyboard replacement, although I expect that will only be a temporary solution at best. 

Having worked with a Mac since the days it was cool (around OSX Tiger), I don't plan on ever going back to Windows. But I really hope Apple will give some deep thought to its keyboard and the weak plastic screen coating before they present the 2018/19 lineup as I consider these deal breakers in their current sorry state. 

Cheers,

EJ

 

Original Post

I too had some keyboard issues with my macbook pro 2017 with touchbar, basically sometimes some keys did not respond at all  and I had to press it very hard, sometimes it appeared like I pressed it twice, for example pressing 'q' would show up as 'qq', and it drove me crazy. Luckily, Apple fixed it by replacing it with a brand new keyboard and now it is working perfectly - touch wood!

Huge posted:

And I though all Apple users always reported their gadgets as being perfect - you've shattered my faith in human gullibility    (but it's good to find some people seeing through all the Apple hype!)

The notion of "Apple hype" was invented by people who don't like Apple products for some reason. Any Apple user knows that Apple products, like all similar products are imperfect. We love them anyway, perhaps because they are usually less-imperfect than most. The service and support is also really special in my experience.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Thanks for the heads-up guys. I was just pondering getting the latest Pro for work (I already use a previous generation 13” and it’s wonderful and has all those useful USB and Thunderbolt ports). 

By the looks of it I might just hold on a bit....

Yeah, we're the same. We contemplated a MBP replacement for my wife's old (Apple) laptop, but the reported keyboard issues put us off for now, so just run with one MBP for portable use (plus a couple of iPads).

We bought an iMac 27" instead. Now that 5K screen is just something else! Easily the best screen I've ever used. Stunning for photo editing.

winkyincanada posted:
Huge posted:

And I though all Apple users always reported their gadgets as being perfect - you've shattered my faith in human gullibility    (but it's good to find some people seeing through all the Apple hype!)

The notion of "Apple hype" was invented by people who don't like Apple products for some reason. Any Apple user knows that Apple products, like all similar products are imperfect. We love them anyway, perhaps because they are usually less-imperfect than most. The service and support is also really special in my experience.

Winky, I must agree I never had an Apple product till September last year but I was having problems running my Uniti Core and NDX it was suggested by my Naim dealer that I try a IOS device I was a bit reluctant but as Apple offer a 14 day no quibble return policy I went ahead and purchased a 2017 iPad. Due to Diabetic Eyesight problems I found the screen a bit reflective and true to their word they exchanged it for a Pro Model with the better screen I only had to pay the difference in cost they even transferred all the data over etc etc superb service indeed.

The iPad did indeed cure the problems I was experiencing using a Android device.

Since then I have binned my windows 10 PC and am using a iMac 4K desktop, recently upgraded to a iPhone 8 plus from a Android device I am more than happy with the Apple product bloody expensive but worth every penny in my opinion the service and product training courses offered by  Apple stores  Is rather special the iMac is a absolute pleasure to use after using windows 10.

winkyincanada posted:
Huge posted:

And I though all Apple users always reported their gadgets as being perfect - you've shattered my faith in human gullibility    (but it's good to find some people seeing through all the Apple hype!)

The notion of "Apple hype" was invented by people who don't like Apple products for some reason. Any Apple user knows that Apple products, like all similar products are imperfect. We love them anyway, perhaps because they are usually less-imperfect than most. The service and support is also really special in my experience.

Err no...

First there was "MacOS is better than Windows as you don't get GPFs" (instead you just got corrupted data and no security what so ever or programmes going rogue).

Then there was "Windows uses co-operative multitasking, Apple uses true multitasking" (Apple also used co-operative multitasking for all processes whereas Windows actually used preemptive multitasking for trusted low level code like device drivers).

Not forgetting the infamous "Mac is better than windows as there are thousands of viruses for Windows, but the Mac doesn't get viruses".

Next came a real time data acquisition task we had, which worked fine on Windows, but with the Mac if you pressed the mouse button, then because of the lack of any low level preemptive multitasking, you lost data.

Also there was the scandal of Apple having "reserved" APIs which only they were permitted to use to give their own applications a competitive advantage (this practice eventually got banned by a court case brought by the American DoJ).

Finally there was the lack of support for backward compatibility.  (Until OSX, backward compatibility was hit and miss.  Versions 5->6 was about 70%, Versions 6->7 was the infamous debacle of just 53% of applications remaining compatible with the new OS).


P.S. I forgot to mention that Apple claimed to have invented the WIMP UI principle (Windows, Icons, Mice and Pointers) and then took a case against Microsoft to get Windows banned.  During the case it turned out that the WIMP principle was invented by Xerox and that Apple knew that already as they nicked it from Xerox!

Huge posted:
winkyincanada posted:
Huge posted:

And I though all Apple users always reported their gadgets as being perfect - you've shattered my faith in human gullibility    (but it's good to find some people seeing through all the Apple hype!)

The notion of "Apple hype" was invented by people who don't like Apple products for some reason. Any Apple user knows that Apple products, like all similar products are imperfect. We love them anyway, perhaps because they are usually less-imperfect than most. The service and support is also really special in my experience.

Err no...

First there was "MacOS is better than Windows as you don't get GPFs" (instead you just got corrupted data and no security what so ever or programmes going rogue).

Then there was "Windows uses co-operative multitasking, Apple uses true multitasking" (Apple also used co-operative multitasking for all processes whereas Windows actually used preemptive multitasking for trusted low level code like device drivers).

Not forgetting the infamous "Mac is better than windows as there are thousands of viruses for Windows, but the Mac doesn't get viruses".

Next came a real time data acquisition task we had, which worked fine on Windows, but with the Mac if you pressed the mouse button, then because of the lack of any low level preemptive multitasking, you lost data.

Also there was the scandal of Apple having "reserved" APIs which only they were permitted to use to give their own applications a competitive advantage (this practice eventually got banned by a court case brought by the American DoJ).

Finally there was the lack of support for backward compatibility.  (Until OSX, backward compatibility was hit and miss.  Versions 5->6 was about 70%, Versions 6->7 was the infamous debacle of just 53% of applications remaining compatible with the new OS).


P.S. I forgot to mention that Apple claimed to have invented the WIMP UI principle (Windows, Icons, Mice and Pointers) and then took a case against Microsoft to get Windows banned.  During the case it turned out that the WIMP principle was invented by Xerox and that Apple knew that already as they nicked it from Xerox!

All of which hardly matters for the non-programming consumer that just want the thing to work. Compared to Win 7 and especially Win 10, the interface is far more streamlined and intuitive, starting with the near immediate wake-up time. I'll take the hardware restrictions and the price that come with the simplicity - but these also mean I have a near zero-tolerance for issues such as the one I am experiencing.

This thread has actually not been pointless - I was motivated to call up support (they think of themselves of geniuses, but this particular person couldn't bring himself to not go over the 'never seen this before, did you update all your software?' routine) and they agreed to take my laptop in for a service check. Thanks all for replying. 

Cheers

EJ

 

 

Frank Yang posted:

Just a small warning to EJ, it took my third trip to the Apple Store before they were finally convinced that it was the keyboard problem.

Thanks Frank, yes I'm half expecting another wide-eyed incredulous look once I explain the issue, we'll see how it goes. 

Regards

EJ

Huge posted:
winkyincanada posted:
Huge posted:

And I though all Apple users always reported their gadgets as being perfect - you've shattered my faith in human gullibility    (but it's good to find some people seeing through all the Apple hype!)

The notion of "Apple hype" was invented by people who don't like Apple products for some reason. Any Apple user knows that Apple products, like all similar products are imperfect. We love them anyway, perhaps because they are usually less-imperfect than most. The service and support is also really special in my experience.

Err no...

First there was "MacOS is better than Windows as you don't get GPFs" (instead you just got corrupted data and no security what so ever or programmes going rogue).

Never been an issue for me. I don't know what GPFs are. Crashing OS and programs is a feature of both Windows and OSX. 

Then there was "Windows uses co-operative multitasking, Apple uses true multitasking" (Apple also used co-operative multitasking for all processes whereas Windows actually used preemptive multitasking for trusted low level code like device drivers).

I don't care. The Macs have always done what I required.

Not forgetting the infamous "Mac is better than windows as there are thousands of viruses for Windows, but the Mac doesn't get viruses".

I have never had a virus on a Mac, but sure, they exist.

Next came a real time data acquisition task we had, which worked fine on Windows, but with the Mac if you pressed the mouse button, then because of the lack of any low level preemptive multitasking, you lost data.

I don't care.

Also there was the scandal of Apple having "reserved" APIs which only they were permitted to use to give their own applications a competitive advantage (this practice eventually got banned by a court case brought by the American DoJ).

I don't know what this means, or what the implication for me is.

Finally there was the lack of support for backward compatibility.  (Until OSX, backward compatibility was hit and miss.  Versions 5->6 was about 70%, Versions 6->7 was the infamous debacle of just 53% of applications remaining compatible with the new OS).

Never been an issue for me. I've never had a piece of software I was till using fail to work because of an OSX update.


P.S. I forgot to mention that Apple claimed to have invented the WIMP UI principle (Windows, Icons, Mice and Pointers) and then took a case against Microsoft to get Windows banned.  During the case it turned out that the WIMP principle was invented by Xerox and that Apple knew that already as they nicked it from Xerox!

Jobs stealing the GUI and mouse concept from Xerox is a silicon valley legend. I didn't know that Apple claimed to have invented it. Pretty easily disproved. I guess Apple failed in that lawsuit as a consequence. None of this impacts on my experience with Apple products.

See my personal experience to each of these...

None of your examples conflicts with, or invalidates my experience. By "Apple hype" I mean the inaccurate notion that Apple users are blind (or at least claim to be) to the shortcomings of the systems. Far from it. Apple users get frustrated with aspects of the Apple universe just like everyone else does.

Gazza posted:

Still prefer my Imac over a pc any day, each to their own.

Me too. The difference between the MacBook Pro and iPhone SE that I use personally and the Surface Pro and Blackberry I use at work is huge. The former feels like well engineered products designed to make things easy for the user, the latter make me as the user feel like I am entering some Tolkien-esque adventure where things are deliberately made critic and difficult as a test of my competence.

winkyincanada posted:

See my personal experience to each of these...

None of your examples conflicts with, or invalidates my experience. By "Apple hype" I mean the inaccurate notion that Apple users are blind (or at least claim to be) to the shortcomings of the systems. Far from it. Apple users get frustrated with aspects of the Apple universe just like everyone else does.

OK, so we have radically different meanings to the phrase "Apple hype"; I was referring to the "misleading" statements made by Apple (and to a lesser extent other) in support of advantages of the Apple systems that do not in fact exist (or are actually matched or exceeded by other systems such as Windows or Linux).

I do fully accept that many Apple users really aren't blind to the shortcomings - as you say "just like everyone else does".

I use windows at work and mac at home. The majority of the IT co-workers and clinicians that I work with all seem to have apple devices, phones, iPads, MacBook Air, MacBook Pro, Mac Desktops in there home and many in there work environment.

The hype of Apple could never exceed the hype of Microsoft (which has not seen the light of day in my personal use for the past 15+ years)

JMHO - YMMV

Ardbeg10y posted:

If you need a good keyboard, this is all you need:

 

Mine is now 6 or 7 year old, has a 1TB SSD and never let me down on all the travel around this globe. I had to replace the battery (try that on a mac!).

It is actually even easier to replace a battery on a Macbook because they do it for you! Because the mac battery does not have its own unnecessary case, it is also more environmentally friendly, and makes for a lighter and more compact laptop.

Ardbeg10y posted:

If you need a good keyboard, this is all you need:

Mine is now 6 or 7 year old, has a 1TB SSD and never let me down on all the travel around this globe. I had to replace the battery (try that on a mac!).

Coincidentally, I use one of these Lenovo ThinkPads for running the occasional PC program. It's always worked perfectly, built like a tank. Still a relief to get back to my Apple stuff though.

winkyincanada posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:

Thanks for the heads-up guys. I was just pondering getting the latest Pro for work (I already use a previous generation 13” and it’s wonderful and has all those useful USB and Thunderbolt ports). 

By the looks of it I might just hold on a bit....

Yeah, we're the same. We contemplated a MBP replacement for my wife's old (Apple) laptop, but the reported keyboard issues put us off for now, so just run with one MBP for portable use (plus a couple of iPads).

We bought an iMac 27" instead. Now that 5K screen is just something else! Easily the best screen I've ever used. Stunning for photo editing.

Yeah my new iMac 5K makes my 2013 iMac look broken. By far the greatest computer experience I've ever had.

Kevin Richardson posted:
winkyincanada posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:

Thanks for the heads-up guys. I was just pondering getting the latest Pro for work (I already use a previous generation 13” and it’s wonderful and has all those useful USB and Thunderbolt ports). 

By the looks of it I might just hold on a bit....

Yeah, we're the same. We contemplated a MBP replacement for my wife's old (Apple) laptop, but the reported keyboard issues put us off for now, so just run with one MBP for portable use (plus a couple of iPads).

We bought an iMac 27" instead. Now that 5K screen is just something else! Easily the best screen I've ever used. Stunning for photo editing.

Yeah my new iMac 5K makes my 2013 iMac look broken. By far the greatest computer experience I've ever had.

I remain stunned by the image quality every time I sit down in front of it.

winkyincanada posted:
Kevin Richardson posted:
winkyincanada posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:

Thanks for the heads-up guys. I was just pondering getting the latest Pro for work (I already use a previous generation 13” and it’s wonderful and has all those useful USB and Thunderbolt ports). 

By the looks of it I might just hold on a bit....

Yeah, we're the same. We contemplated a MBP replacement for my wife's old (Apple) laptop, but the reported keyboard issues put us off for now, so just run with one MBP for portable use (plus a couple of iPads).

We bought an iMac 27" instead. Now that 5K screen is just something else! Easily the best screen I've ever used. Stunning for photo editing.

Yeah my new iMac 5K makes my 2013 iMac look broken. By far the greatest computer experience I've ever had.

I remain stunned by the image quality every time I sit down in front of it.

Not being much of a computer buff and used to a PC I was in an Apple store looking at these lovely screens. Very embarrassing I then started looking for the computer box to go with the screen in the cupboards below. A very nice chap then explained the computer and everything was in the “screen”.......still amazed at that, bought one.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Thanks for the heads-up guys. I was just pondering getting the latest Pro for work (I already use a previous generation 13” and it’s wonderful and has all those useful USB and Thunderbolt ports). 

By the looks of it I might just hold on a bit....

I have an early 2011 MacBook Pro 13" (with all those useful ports..). I replaced the HD with a 250Giga SSD, doubled the RAM and here I go. My keyboard is till perfect (it's me doing a huge amount of mistypings). I did it all by myself, not very difficult.

Of course, now that I wrote this, it will break down in no time.

tonym posted:

Needs be, I have to use a PC with Windows 10 to run certain programs. It's always a relief to get back to the Macs.

Same here, but I find Fusion works fine to run Win 10 on a Mac. I’ve had various issues with Macs over the years, but nothing in the Windows world compares, especially with laptops. A Lenovo ThinkPad does not offer nearly the longevity despite what appears to be rock-solid build. Whereas I haven’t had a Mac I couldn’t eventually sell on.

My bad experience about the 2017 Macbook pro keyboard appears to be widespread as the following URL suggests.

Apple's MacBook butterfly switch keyboards target of second class action complaint.

It is a good keyboard IMO, but it is not a mature technology. Apple need to get their act on it, and make their users have the confidence on Apple to fix it.

 

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