nap 300 dr

Laxton Yeo posted:

Well I'm experiencing just the opposite. I've done the Dr upgrade on my 300 and I'm very disappointed by it. It sounds shut in and with lots of siblence. The 300 sounds much better before the upgrade. The 552dr helped but it still sounds wrong especially after warming up. I've brought up my concerns to my dealer and he reckons it's part of the running in process. 

That does sound strange. Especially after running in for a couple of months. When I heard the 300DR at @wenger2015s I was amazed at how good it sounded straight from the box. 

I take it you don't use any kind of mains conditioning and/or unusual mains block @Laxton Yeo

Finkfan posted:
Laxton Yeo posted:

Well I'm experiencing just the opposite. I've done the Dr upgrade on my 300 and I'm very disappointed by it. It sounds shut in and with lots of siblence. The 300 sounds much better before the upgrade. The 552dr helped but it still sounds wrong especially after warming up. I've brought up my concerns to my dealer and he reckons it's part of the running in process. 

That does sound strange. Especially after running in for a couple of months. When I heard the 300DR at @wenger2015s I was amazed at how good it sounded straight from the box. 

I take it you don't use any kind of mains conditioning and/or unusual mains block @Laxton Yeo

Yes it's really strange indeed. The 300dr upgrade was done at the factory. I've no mains conditioner or filters and I'm using a dedicated spur. All mains power cords are powerline.

Laxton, sorry to hear that. Oddly enough, last few days I've got exactly the same problem with my rig. shut-in and sibilant, colourless, grainy, stuck in the speakers. I'd liken it to listening to an FM radio station where the tuning dial hasn't quite been set correctly. The last 2 nights has been so bad I've had to walk away and go watch TV. Unlistenable.

Interestingly, what our systems share in common is the very recent introduction of a 552DR (mine is a March 2015 built, dealer ex-dem, but by the dealers admission they'd played it very little so it wasn't really run-in I think). I've had the 552 at home for nearly 4weeks now and played it 4hours a day or so. Initial sound was pretty poor, but only took a few days to start doing special things. Now the system sounds broken.

I've tried a CD player in place of my NDS, but same result, so it's not the source.

I'm also going to borrow my dealers 300DR next week to check the power amp since my 500 is now 13 years without a service. It could of course be the cause, but the timing just seems a bit coincidental unless the wider window from 552 has triggered its demise? Anyway, I'll know more next week.

So, given your having very similar troubles I really wonder if it may be preamp related. I was expecting peaks and troughs, but never for the system to be unlistenable. Interesting. 

Laxton Yeo posted:

Well I'm experiencing just the opposite. I've done the Dr upgrade on my 300 and I'm very disappointed by it. It sounds shut in and with lots of siblence. The 300 sounds much better before the upgrade. The 552dr helped but it still sounds wrong especially after warming up. I've brought up my concerns to my dealer and he reckons it's part of the running in process. 

If you are certain the 300DR is causing this (you have made no other changes to your system) and it has been running for two months, I would begin thinking in terms of getting Naim to take it back and check it. My first 552 didn't do the kind of magic I had heard when listening to other units previously. They rebuilt it and now it does.

You have a dealer in the loop so all will be well, one way or another, in due course.

Aceone posted:

Iam running my 202 with a supercap mk2 already  that made a big difference on my 202 

Well as you already have a Supercap, it makes the argument to go from a 202 straight to a 252 a little stronger. I ran a 282 on a Supercap and enjoyed it, then onto a 252.

I would still listen to a 282 AND a 252 if you can before deciding though.

nigelb posted:
Aceone posted:

Iam running my 202 with a supercap mk2 already  that made a big difference on my 202 

Well as you already have a Supercap, it makes the argument to go from a 202 straight to a 252 a little stronger. I ran a 282 on a Supercap and enjoyed it, then onto a 252.

I would still listen to a 282 AND a 252 if you can before deciding though.

Very much agree with Nigel's advice here.  The 282 and 252 have different presentations and many on here tend to like one or the other. 

Laxton Yeo posted:

Well I'm experiencing just the opposite. I've done the Dr upgrade on my 300 and I'm very disappointed by it. It sounds shut in and with lots of siblence. The 300 sounds much better before the upgrade. The 552dr helped but it still sounds wrong especially after warming up. I've brought up my concerns to my dealer and he reckons it's part of the running in process. 

Something is awry there. The running-in thing can be overstated and we can all be guilty of hyperbole when we hear an improvement (or indeed the reverse). My DR'd 500 was musically enjoyable from about ten minutes into the get-go and I could hear it doing lots of stuff better than its pre-DR'd incarnation.

Then it gradually got better over the next few months - albeit with a few bumps in the road. Nick's experience with a DR'd 300 chimes with my own. The run-in difference should not be that big. We of the forum are the lunatic fringe. New Naim kit has to do a thoroughly satisfying job for the majority of its customers, from day one.

There is of course always the danger that something better in the chain, exposes something else which is weak in the chain. The DR'd amps certainly open the window.

Good luck with getting things sorted to your satisfaction.

John.

My 300DR did its run-in when used with a 282/SCDR. I found the run-in experience fairly shallow. e.g. it sounded good from the off, got a little 'cold' mid run-in, and then the performance re-emerged at a slightly higher level than at the start.  Never remotely became unlistenable. Maybe I'm lucky or a bit deaf but I wouldn't put what Laxton Yeo describes as down to run-in.  

MDS posted:

My 300DR did its run-in when used with a 282/SCDR. I found the run-in experience fairly shallow. e.g. it sounded good from the off, got a little 'cold' mid run-in, and then the performance re-emerged at a slightly higher level than at the start.  Never remotely became unlistenable. Maybe I'm lucky or a bit deaf but I wouldn't put what Laxton Yeo describes as down to run-in.  

Speak up....i can't hear you..

Laxton Yeo posted:

Well I'm experiencing just the opposite. I've done the Dr upgrade on my 300 and I'm very disappointed by it. It sounds shut in and with lots of siblence. The 300 sounds much better before the upgrade. The 552dr helped but it still sounds wrong especially after warming up. I've brought up my concerns to my dealer and he reckons it's part of the running in process. 

Sounds bizarre - they haven't added SL internal cabling without telling you and affected the timing have they? 

wenger2015 posted:

LY, I assume you have checked all the connections? possibly a good idea to unplug everything and reconnect anyway ...

Hi, I've cleaned (by plugging/unplugging), relaxed all burndys, and reconnected all cables just to be sure 2 weeks ago just to make sure it wasn't a bad connection that was causing this.

kevin J Carden posted:

Laxton, sorry to hear that. Oddly enough, last few days I've got exactly the same problem with my rig. shut-in and sibilant, colourless, grainy, stuck in the speakers. I'd liken it to listening to an FM radio station where the tuning dial hasn't quite been set correctly. The last 2 nights has been so bad I've had to walk away and go watch TV. Unlistenable.

Interestingly, what our systems share in common is the very recent introduction of a 552DR (mine is a March 2015 built, dealer ex-dem, but by the dealers admission they'd played it very little so it wasn't really run-in I think). I've had the 552 at home for nearly 4weeks now and played it 4hours a day or so. Initial sound was pretty poor, but only took a few days to start doing special things. Now the system sounds broken.

I've tried a CD player in place of my NDS, but same result, so it's not the source.

I'm also going to borrow my dealers 300DR next week to check the power amp since my 500 is now 13 years without a service. It could of course be the cause, but the timing just seems a bit coincidental unless the wider window from 552 has triggered its demise? Anyway, I'll know more next week.

So, given your having very similar troubles I really wonder if it may be preamp related. I was expecting peaks and troughs, but never for the system to be unlistenable. Interesting. 

Hi Kevin, it seems that your 552DR experience may be mirroring mine. Mine's about 4-5 weeks old with about 2 hours of playing time per day. It was good for the initial 2-3 days and it sounds broken after that. To be sure, I actually shut everything down and repowered them at the 2 week mark. I've not tried using another source besides the NDS so perhaps i should.

The only other thing that could be causing the anomaly could be the 300DR upgrade. My old 300 was less than 2 years old so i doubt the power supply could have deteriorated to the point of requiring a recap. Let me know how you get on with the 300DR test with your 552DR.

Harry posted:
Laxton Yeo posted:

Well I'm experiencing just the opposite. I've done the Dr upgrade on my 300 and I'm very disappointed by it. It sounds shut in and with lots of siblence. The 300 sounds much better before the upgrade. The 552dr helped but it still sounds wrong especially after warming up. I've brought up my concerns to my dealer and he reckons it's part of the running in process. 

If you are certain the 300DR is causing this (you have made no other changes to your system) and it has been running for two months, I would begin thinking in terms of getting Naim to take it back and check it. My first 552 didn't do the kind of magic I had heard when listening to other units previously. They rebuilt it and now it does.

You have a dealer in the loop so all will be well, one way or another, in due course.

Hi Harry, my dealer thinks it's a run-in issue so I'm giving it some time to settle down. It's all a bit strange if i compared to the previous 250.2 to 300 upgrade i did previously - the 300 gave more details from the start even though it took some time to settle and open up. But in this case, I am actually hearing less details from the 300DR compared to the 250.2 which may point to something being not right.

I suppose you can't rule out a run in effect but two months seems long enough. If it was a bit up and down, or maybe not quite there, it would be logical to suppose that further running in would do the trick. And it may well so so in your case. However, the lack of performance you describe after two months is worrying. My pre DR 300 was magic out of the box and just got better for a few weeks. Do you leave it switched on 24/7?

Hi Laxton,

If you leave the NAP300DR switched on and it's still not singing after 2 months, then (as others have suggested) it's time to ask your dealer for help.

Having said that, it may be worth just switching it off for half an hour before switching it back on again.  This should make no difference whatsoever.  However, I went through a full system teardown, clean-up, re-levelling, cable massaging, re-connecting, switch on, wait a day then listen for the improvement exercises on my own system a few months ago, expecting it to sound brilliant.  It sounded dull, flat & lifeless.  Somewhat disappointed, I contacted a couple of experienced Naim Forum friends and they were baffled too.  As a last resort, I powered the system down for 30 minutes, restarted it and had a listen.  Phew, it sounded fully back on form.  To this day, I don't know why it worked but I only know that it did work.

So, if a 30 mins power down doesn't get your NAP300 singing, then time to call your dealer or take it in to him for a listen in his own system.

Hope this helps, FT

   Hi Laxton, I just read all of your thread on the NAP 300DR upgrade and your apparent dissatisfaction with the sound post conversion.  Do you have a further update you can share?

I too have some reservations on the 300DR sound compared with the standard 300.  The following has been my experience of comparing the 300DR versus the standard 300.  I apologise if it’s a bit long and rambling.

I am running the following active system :- (sorry no profile info)  Vinyl:-  LP12, Radikal, Ittock, Akiva, Superline, S/Cap.  Digital:- NDS/555PS, CDI.  Amps :- 552/552DRPSU, Snaxo BMR, S/Cap,  NAP 300 on treble and olive Nap 250 on bass.  All boxes on Fraim,  Speakers Ovator S600 active NACA5 with Naim Y connector on bass (feeds both bass drivers from one amplifier)

The standard 300/olive 250 wonky set up has worked surprisingly well for around 3 years but I always intended getting a second 300 at some point.  With the advent of the 300DR and all the positive comments about its performance it seemed a good time to have my existing 300 converted to DR and buy a second 300DR to  give me a properly balanced system.

My dealer, the excellent Audio Room of Hull, loaned me their 300DR for a home dem.  Unfortunately this turned out to be a non-starter in the active system. The timing of a 300 and 300DR was different and the two would not work as a team.  My dealer had only one 300DR so loaned me a 250DR which was a much closer match to the 300DR and this cured the timing and the amps worked together OK with the 300DR on Treble and the 250DR on bass.

The sound was very impressive and had many of the qualities claimed in postings and reviews particularly the control, sound stage, bass extension and clarity.  However, what did seem to be missing was the beautiful musicality and lyrical qualities of the standard 300.  Paradoxically, vocals did have a greater insight and meaning but failed to convey as much emotion and vocal inflection.  I also noticed quite a lack of fine detail such as the post echo which is evident at the end of some tracks on certain vinyl records as the cartridge picks up modulations from the previous groove.  It also missed those annoying people in the audience talking through the live recording of Alfred Brendle’s Farewell Concert.  Another effect I noticed was the dynamics were rather volatile in that I would turn up the volume to bring the vocals closer but then the loud parts seemed excessively loud.  I found myself constantly adjusting the volume.   

The loaned amps had been previously used for quite some time but of course were not always powered up.  I suspected it may just be a run in issue and my dealer let me to keep the amps for another two weeks but whilst it did seem to slowly improve I was still not 100% convinced and did not go ahead with the conversion and purchase.  My ever helpful dealer arranged to obtain a second 300DR from Naim so I could try two 300DRs at the same time to give a proper dem.  It took several weeks  to arrive but I have now had the opportunity to listen to two 300DRs during another extended home dem.

It was clear from the start that two similar amps were an improvement.  The sound was immediately better balanced and for the first time ever I was running with the Snaxo crossover set flat. As previously the wonderful control, sound stage, bass extension and clarity were back and the vocals seemed improved too.  Unfortunately the more I listened the more I realised the same niggles about low level detail and musicality were still present.  This seemed more pronounced on vinyl with quite a hard edge making some artists sounding not quite their normal selves. The amps are now back with the dealer and I am totally undecided about proceeding.  I am going to give my existing system another week or so to see if I can live without all the really good aspects the DR version brings.

I don’t want to impose on your thread Laxton but I would welcome comments from anyone who has experienced similar findings and would be keen to know if it all came right in the end.  It may just be a matter of time.  

I have also been reading  Ken C’s thread on 2X NAP 500DR Service + Upgrade.  I know these are different animals but there are comments which indicate the 500DRs could take up to six months to reach full potential.   Could the 300DRs need a similar time to settle in.

Cloth Ears, I've had a brand new 300 Dr for the last 3 weeks, I've had it fired up 24/7, .....from the off it sounded very very good, something I wasn't expecting..... During the process it's slowly,  little by little continued to improve,  I managed a decent listening session last night and I couldn't stop smileling ....beautiful deep, warm, detailed soundstage , I found myself forgetting about analysing the sound and being  lost in the music ...I think it's all a question of time and patience, ive read it can take a good few months.. maybe I've just got lucky....

Cloth Ears posted:

I don’t want to impose on your thread Laxton but I would welcome comments from anyone who has experienced similar findings and would be keen to know if it all came right in the end.  It may just be a matter of time. 

Sorry Aceone,  I just realised it's your thread I'm imposing on not Laxton's

Wenger2015,  My post perhaps gave the wrong impression.   I too was amazed at the sound of the amps right from the start, especially the 2 X 300DR combo.  I agree with everything you describe above and in the first week of the demo I was convinced these were the amps for me.  Whilst I think Naim have done a terrific job of re-engineering the 300 and improved it beyond recognition I am finding it does not draw me in as much and provide the same level of musical satisfaction as the original 300.  I know its going to have a different characteristic sound to the original but from what I’ve heard so far in two very long demos it may a step too far for my personal taste.  I’m still very reluctant to take the plunge and Laxton’s post has somewhat reinforced my view.  What other components are you using in the rest of your system.

Cloth Ears posted:

Wenger2015,

Yes that's a great combination.  Which power amp did the Nap 300DR replace.

Upgrade from Nap250dr,  which I think is an exceptional box, I only upgraded due to an offer from my dealer which was too good a deal to turn down. I have always wanted the Nap 300dr so it was a no brainer as they say.

I heard a demo at the Bristol hifi show back in February between the dr and non dr boxes, which was very revealing,  to me the differences were considerable,  but that said it's all about personal taste , it's what works for you that really matters, as they say it's your ears...your money.... 

Laxton Yeo posted:

Hi Harry and FT,

Thanks for your thoughts on this matter. I keep my equipment powered up 24/7 so it's running all the time. I'll try the 30 minute power down trick to see if it works.

I'll contact Naim about this if it still doesn't work.

Just some thoughts;

1) Might be worth checking that the speakers are not out of phase. I have done that before and it took me a while to realise

2) Worth checking to ensure the mono button isn't pressed on the 552. Again, I've done that before

3) I would also borrow another 300dr from your dealer to see if the issue still persists

4) it may be worth borrowing different burndys from your dealer as one may be faulty. I have experienced this and it is surprising the impact it can have.

Regards,

Nick

Hi Cloth Ears.

I'm sorry that you are experiencing similar issues to my 300DR. Your system is very similar to mine albeit mine's on SL speaker leads and interconnects. I've refrained from commenting further as I thought it may be better to let my system settle down and run in first.

I've done a couple of tweaks after the 300DR upgrade including changing my 252dr to a 552dr, changing to proper Certified Telegarter SFTP Cat6a cables and adding linear power supplies to my router and NAS. So far, the sound has settled a little somewhat but it's still not quite there compared to before with the old 300. 

The 300dr does the groovy thing really well, but what it lacks is that touch of finesse that was on the 300 that made voices so magical. Also in orchestral pieces for example, the 300 rendered brass instruments with such metallic honesty that it engages and captivates you at the cresendoes. The other thing I noticed was with the 300dr, the music was shut in between both speakers, unlike the 300 which gave an extensive soundstage and made the speakers disappear. At this moment the sound opened up slightly but still, I would rather have my old 300 back.

I've checked my connections, redressed the cabling, repositioned the speakers, and I'm running out of ideas. The only thing I can hope for is for this to be down to the run in process.

I've written to naim and their reply was this is unusual and asked my dealer to compare it with another 300dr. My dealer reckons it's a run in issue so advised me to wait further.

Quite honestly, I've had NAim equipment over the past 15 years and never experienced any of this with any of my purchases previously, especially close to reference level products.

 

 

 

elkman70 posted:
Laxton Yeo posted:

Hi Harry and FT,

Thanks for your thoughts on this matter. I keep my equipment powered up 24/7 so it's running all the time. I'll try the 30 minute power down trick to see if it works.

I'll contact Naim about this if it still doesn't work.

Just some thoughts;

1) Might be worth checking that the speakers are not out of phase. I have done that before and it took me a while to realise

2) Worth checking to ensure the mono button isn't pressed on the 552. Again, I've done that before

3) I would also borrow another 300dr from your dealer to see if the issue still persists

4) it may be worth borrowing different burndys from your dealer as one may be faulty. I have experienced this and it is surprising the impact it can have.

Regards,

Nick

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your suggestions.

1. I've checked the speakers were not cables out of phase and the rechecked it physically as well as using a test track.

2. The mono button on the 552 is off

3. My dealer reckons it's a run in issue and advised me to wait a bit more

4.  I'm using the same burndies as my old 300 and it was untouched and insitu during the time the 300 was away for the DR upgrade.

Regards

The dealer won't play the run in card for ever and if he/she thinks you need to keep running it in (at least for the time being) then this appears to be the most logical move - provided you are not getting brushed off. I doubt you are.

When Helen and I did a factory tour we heard about a CDS3 which went back twice because it just didn't sound right in the opinion of the owner. Naim were not happy that the owner wasn't happy and  when the unit came back a third time they just replaced it.

Encouraged by this tale, we fessed up and told them we really weren't happy with our eight month old 552. It sounded great but it just didn't seem to have the magic that we heard in other previously auditioned 552s.

Roy gave it the twice over and oversaw a rebuild. The magic appeared the day it returned and hasn't left.

My intention is not to start an avalanche chancers but to point out that the after sales service, when it needs to be, is impressive. Having the dealer involved is your get out of jail card.

All the best with it.

Finkfan posted:

Have you tried it with the new supplied burndys? I have no idea if there have been any changes to the cable makeup but it might be worth a go. 

Hi Finkfan,

My old 300 was of a very recent vintage. When I did the DR upgrade, my 300 was only a year and a half young. I suppose the burndies on my unit should be the most updated spec.

Harry posted:

The dealer won't play the run in card for ever and if he/she thinks you need to keep running it in (at least for the time being) then this appears to be the most logical move - provided you are not getting brushed off. I doubt you are.

When Helen and I did a factory tour we heard about a CDS3 which went back twice because it just didn't sound right in the opinion of the owner. Naim were not happy that the owner wasn't happy and  when the unit came back a third time they just replaced it.

Encouraged by this tale, we fessed up and told them we really weren't happy with our eight month old 552. It sounded great but it just didn't seem to have the magic that we heard in other previously auditioned 552s.

Roy gave it the twice over and oversaw a rebuild. The magic appeared the day it returned and hasn't left.

My intention is not to start an avalanche chancers but to point out that the after sales service, when it needs to be, is impressive. Having the dealer involved is your get out of jail card.

All the best with it.

Hi Harry,

Thanks for your advise.

I have visited the factory once a long time back and I can attest the dedication that goes into the building of Naim products.

I'm still monitoring and if things don't improve over the next few months, I would request for the unit to be sent back to Naim for a once over. 

 

Laxton Yeo posted:
Harry posted:

The dealer won't play the run in card for ever and if he/she thinks you need to keep running it in (at least for the time being) then this appears to be the most logical move - provided you are not getting brushed off. I doubt you are.

When Helen and I did a factory tour we heard about a CDS3 which went back twice because it just didn't sound right in the opinion of the owner. Naim were not happy that the owner wasn't happy and  when the unit came back a third time they just replaced it.

Encouraged by this tale, we fessed up and told them we really weren't happy with our eight month old 552. It sounded great but it just didn't seem to have the magic that we heard in other previously auditioned 552s.

Roy gave it the twice over and oversaw a rebuild. The magic appeared the day it returned and hasn't left.

My intention is not to start an avalanche chancers but to point out that the after sales service, when it needs to be, is impressive. Having the dealer involved is your get out of jail card.

All the best with it.

Hi Harry,

Thanks for your advise.

I have visited the factory once a long time back and I can attest the dedication that goes into the building of Naim products.

I'm still monitoring and if things don't improve over the next few months, I would request for the unit to be sent back to Naim for a once over. 

 

It looks to me like you're being too patient here. I really think you should get your dealer to check this out, and I'm sure Naim will be on your side too. This just doesn't seem like a run-in issue. 

 

Hi Laxton,

Thanks for the detailed update.  It sounds like we are experiencing the same problem or perhaps have similar expectations from the updated unit.  The previous highly detailed musical voicing of the 300 coupled with the new control, sound stage, bass extension and clarity of the 300DR would be a truly stunning amp indeed.  Let me throw a couple of other things into the mix.

On my first home demo with the 300DR on treble and 250DR on bass I was convinced it was a run in/not always on issue.  My dealer suggested the power supplies seemed to take the longest time to come up to speed.  I hit on the idea of running the dealers amp with my existing power supply.  I first checked with Naim direct to ensure the supplies were compatible via their serial numbers.  Naim advised they were identical spec units so I ran the 300DR with my standard well used PSU.  I noted a definite improvement especially with the shut in effect but there was also a small improvement in portrayal of human voices.  After a couple of days I switched back to the dealers PSU and noted a slight drop in openness and naturalness.  I appreciate that you are using the same PSU but thought it was worth mentioning.

During the recent second home demo I was immediately struck by how much better the 2 X 300DRs performed and assumed it was due to running two identical amps.  The second amp was a Naim demo unit loaned to the dealer especially for the trial.  I joked with my dealer it may be a highly tweaked unit but he dismissed the idea.  Following the active mantra of always putting the best amp on the treble I used the Naim loan unit on treble (because it was more recent) and the dealers slightly older unit on bass.  After about a week I swapped them over but I could not detect any real difference in performance.

Throughout Aceone’s thread there are several members posting comments along the lines of ‘mine was OK straight out the box and improved after a certain amount of running in’.  This tends to make one think ‘oh no’ mine must be not quite right in some way.  If it was only your amp that exhibited the issues it would be a reasonable conclusion.  However, I am noticing almost identical shortcomings as your-self with two different amplifiers. One of which is a Naim demonstration unit.  This seems too much of a coincidence for me.  Unfortunately, I am slowly starting to believe that in my case as least I am perhaps expecting too much and the 300DR sonic signature may not be for me after all. 

I sincerely hope that extended running can improve the sound to where it is acceptable to you.   It took my Ovator S600 speakers over a year to get fully on song.

It is not surprising that two 300s in different homes/systems will run in differently. Apart from the fact that no two situations can be exactly the same, the 300 is hand built and tested with real ears, over and above the usual prod pass/fail QC. . There has to be some variation. Obviously it's kept within an envelope of high quality but no two can sound exactly the same. Probably applies to many things. Cars certainly.

Hi Laxton, 

I just read two reviews on the Nap300Dr in Hi Fi Critic. One by Martin Collums and one by Chris Binns.  In Martin's review there is a comparison of the standard 300 versus the 300Dr containing some interesting information on the sonic differences particularly the bright top end of the revised amp.  He also puts run in time North of three months.

I found these whilst trawling the net but I think at least one of them is on the Connections section of the Naim site.

Has your amp made any further progress for the better?

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