NAPSC UPGRADE

Hi although new here l have had Naim  gear on and off since the early 90's.

Well my problem is the NAPC2 upgrade,is it?.

+ Yes there's more separation,yes theres tighter bass and more control of the whole spectrum but minus's are-vibrate real bass and its warmth reduced , too disciplined and inevitably lost its musicality and is more clinical --im selling it- the 202/200 sound brilliant without it. the same happened to my Naim DAC when l added the PS555, destroyed any musicality. 

ANY opinions??

Original Post

The 282 is a huge step up from the 202. I was very suprised when I first had mine on dem. The decision took all of about 2 minutes and most of that was thinking about the finances. If you can afford it then treat yourself. I don't think you'll find it in any way restrained, if that's what you mean by disciplined. It has a much wider sound stage. It will work well with the 200 too.

I've owned a 102 and a 202, and wasn't happy with either unless they were powered by both napsc and Hicap. As one progresses up the Naim chain, it can initially seem that some of the excitement goes. But what II've found is that you can engage far more with the music, rather than it being presented to you in a heap. As with any upgrade, use it for a month, then take it away and see if you miss it. Don't be hasty. 

FenderStratman52 posted:

Why not l will do that first ,power supplies later!!. does the 282 still need a nspc2 if l added a supercap?

many thanks

2. does any know if a sub can be added  to the 202/200 without a hicap etc?

If you buy a 282 it is supplied with a NAPSC as standard, as it won't work without one, or if you already have a NAPSC, you can order a 282 without it. If you buy a used 282, make sure you know if it's included or not.

If you're thinking of adding a sub, probably best to use one with a high level input that connects to the speaker terminals.

Thanks for your advice

I think the 202 was designed to work without a NSPC and l believe its optimised without. I find the bass definitely more real and vibrant without as l explained, tight bass kills music for me and is just becomes a thumb. The 282 is a different story as it is optimised with NAPC and is my next upgrade l hope.Tightening up the sound seems most reviewers answer to everything. It may apply to vinyl but not to digital that my experience anyway.

FenderStratman52 posted:

Thanks for your advice

I think the 202 was designed to work without a NSPC and l believe its optimised without. 

I don't hold with that.  From my, albeit short, period with a 202 I thought the NAPSC really improved the resolution and definition in the bass.

Regards,

Lindsay

I've never heard anyone say they didn't like what the NAPSC did to a 202 before, but as long as you're confident that you've given it enough time, your preference is the only one that matters. Also, before you discount the idea completely, it's possible that you have a faulty one. Where is it? Not sitting on top of the preamp, I hope!?

Funny thing is I haven't tried listening to the 202 without the NAPSC when I bought the system 9 years ago. Personally I wouldn't bother whether the NAPSC is connected to the 202 or not. If you feel the 202 to sound better without the NAPSC then let it be. There is no right or wrong in this game as it is mostly down to personal preferences. It's the same as someone preferring the 282 over the 252, or the good old NACA5 over various costlier cables. Having said that, I haven't read about someone saying a 2*2 is better than the 552 though.

I think that some members who don't agree with me are actually agreeing without realising!

Someone said "its got more resolution and definition" with NAPC

l agree with this, its exactly what l'm saying that's what the NAPC does but if Paul McCartney wanted more Res & Def he would have adjusted his tone controls appropriately. My definitive opinion is  Bass especially is more real without the NAPC and nothing to do with taste. My speakers have 12" bass drivers and 12" ABR which probably means l can hear how it is more than most as most bass amps have 15" drivers. When l owned a Naim DAC a few years back l added a 555PS which hardened up the sound like the NAPC. I was told the XP2 used on CDS3 would have been a better match. l don't think "upgrades" are a definitive improvement, my ears decide, always. 

I have just been informed by WITCH HAT that l will need a hi cap to connect my Subwoofer but if this alters the tone balance l might have new problems

FenderStratman52 posted:

My speakers have 12" bass drivers and 12" ABR which probably means l can hear how it is more than most as most bass amps have 15" drivers.

Now I'm really confused!?!

FenderStratman52 posted:

I have just been informed by WITCH HAT that l will need a hi cap to connect my Subwoofer but if this alters the tone balance l might have new problems

Does your sub have a high level input?

One does wonder if the OP really likes Naim amps.....?  I conclude not - quote - '..l have had Naim  gear on and off since the early 90's.'

Ok, so I have ... had Naim gear since 1982 - continuously - and still have. Mind you, I have never owned any speakers with 12 inch drivers and an ABR. I might suggest that such speakers would be a slight challenge to a NAP200 - and that a 250 or greater would be more appropriate. But what do I know....

Dear dear the groupies are not in agreement.

1. Advice no not from someone who gets upset because I'm not in agreement with them. l am not trying to convince anyone of anything , its all an opinion, this is a forum not a football  ground.  I want to hear bass the way it was recorded and to my ears, without the NAPC it sounds more real-got it. that's all.

2. And the loyal groupie who  eats only  strawberry jam and therefore knows nothing about "other" gear As far as you experienced knowledge goes you talk out of your exhaust.  Tannoys  work from a trannie radio and have 15" drivers, so no more helpful  suggestions please.

ChrisSU posted:
FenderStratman52 posted:

My speakers have 12" bass drivers and 12" ABR which probably means l can hear how it is more than most as most bass amps have 15" drivers.

Now I'm really confused!?!

FenderStratman52 posted:

I have just been informed by WITCH HAT that l will need a hi cap to connect my Subwoofer but if this alters the tone balance l might have new problems

Does your sub have a high level input?

I have both l think its a REL T1 which has phono and neutrek . I've spoken to Naim and REL and they had different views. It seems that REL have had lot of similar inquires and state the speaker output terminal cannot be used as they hum loadly and the only solution seems to be a Hi cap 4 pin out to REL phono .l have seem the cable on Ebay for £26.

Thanks

FenderStratman52 posted:
I have both l think its a REL T1 which has phono and neutrek . I've spoken to Naim and REL and they had different views. It seems that REL have had lot of similar inquires and state the speaker output terminal cannot be used as they hum loadly and the only solution seems to be a Hi cap 4 pin out to REL phono .l have seem the cable on Ebay for £26.
Thanks

Naim recommend a 'slugged' cable for connecting a sub, which means it has a small resistor in it, which is apparently required to maintain stability. I would check with Naim support before using a cheap RCA lead from ebay. 

Yup, you need to be careful if running a pre-out sub lead from a pre-amp PSU as it was never designed to drive a long/capacitive cable.  Best check with Naim on length and recommended load.  Note that it will affect overall system performance slightly, which is why taking a high level signal off the back of the speaker's terminals is the preferred connection.  Just definitely avoid connection straight into the terminals on the back of the power amp - a big "no-no" on Naim amps.

Ahah,

Speaker terminals not the power amps terminals? l didn't know there could be a diiference cos when l did the other it hummed really loud. The advisor at Naim said it was fine just keep the volume down then connect any old cable onto any earth on the pre, strange??. It didn't work anyway as l couldn't be sure where to stick it!!!

l will do as you advise as long as you come back to me that l am ok with that

Cheers Richard

ChrisSU posted:
FenderStratman52 posted:

My speakers have 12" bass drivers and 12" ABR which probably means l can hear how it is more than most as most bass amps have 15" drivers.

Now I'm really confused!?!

I assume he was referring to live equipment when a combo amp and speaker cabinet is sometimes just referred to as an amp, and indeed bass cabinets tipically have 15 inch drivers, sometimes larger, as do PA rigs. For music normally played live through such systems the greater inertia and so slower starting and stopping of the cone is inherent in the live music, so may not sound wrong at home. To me the bigger PMC speakers, with 12" bass driver and larger, and very likely the big ATCs, make a lot of sense at least for rock music - and I've listened to the MB2 which has a does have an uncanny ability to sound like a live performance, and not just on rock music, handling classical very well, too, from the visceral feel of the bass to presentation of fine detail. Tiny cones have a real challenge to shift the amount of air needed to reproduce deep bass at realistic levels - a pair of 6.5" drivers have to move 3 or 4 times as far in and out as a single 12" for the same sound level. Of course it doesn't matter to anyone preferring their music without the full bass, but that appears not to include the OP. 

It is interesting that the power supply should limit the bass in the way described: on a power amp my expectation would be for a better PS to enable faster and/or greater delivery of current, which would help the cones follow the recorded sound's shape more accurately as long as they remain within their movement limits - but maybe with a preamp the effect on control is more to do with assisting the amp to do whatever it does to create the 'Naim sound', and that may simply be a sound the OP is less keen on.

You're fine taking a high level signal off the speaker terminals (not the amp terminals). It means that the amp only sees the speaker cable and doesn't get unduly upset (as you know the speaker cable gives the Naim amp the required inductance for stable operation, which is why type and length is so critical). However, you may need to rig up a new set of leads as the standard high level REL lead isn't really suitable without modification.

What I can never quite understand is that the high level input on REL subs is a Neutrik, not 4mm banana sockets like others, and is clearly intended to take their 3-core cable, so I'm not clear as to if you can connect this to the speaker terminals. Do you just connect to both + and only one - terminal as per their suggested connection at the amp end, which seems a bit odd to me?

If you ask REL this question, they insist it's all a load of codswallop, and say you should just connect at the amp end, even with Naim power amps.

FenderStratman52 posted:

Richard has explained to connect to speaker cables NOT terminals. only problem 2 wires on one speaker 1 wire on other 3 meters apart. doh. may have to settle for one channel bass(mono)

I think what Richard means is connect to the terminals on the loudspeaker as opposed to the amp. It means you have to find a way of connecting 2 sets of cables to the same terminal, and the best way to do this will depend on the terminals used on that particular speaker. What that doesn't explain is how to do this with a 3 core cable. I seem to recall that REL used to produce a special version of their Neutrik cable to order for people with Naim amps?

Fortunately for me, I don't have a REL sub - life is so much simpler with an N-Sub!!

ChrisSU posted:

What I can never quite understand is that the high level input on REL subs is a Neutrik, not 4mm banana sockets like others, and is clearly intended to take their 3-core cable, so I'm not clear as to if you can connect this to the speaker terminals. Do you just connect to both + and only one - terminal as per their suggested connection at the amp end, which seems a bit odd to me?

If you ask REL this question, they insist it's all a load of codswallop, and say you should just connect at the amp end, even with Naim power amps.

And who would you trust here to give the right advice..?

As I wrote earlier, the OP will probably need to make up a new cable.  Strangely enough in Richard Lord's day he used to provide Naim owners with instructions on how to do this so that connection could be made at the speaker end.

Richard Dane posted:
ChrisSU posted:

What I can never quite understand is that the high level input on REL subs is a Neutrik, not 4mm banana sockets like others, and is clearly intended to take their 3-core cable, so I'm not clear as to if you can connect this to the speaker terminals. Do you just connect to both + and only one - terminal as per their suggested connection at the amp end, which seems a bit odd to me?

If you ask REL this question, they insist it's all a load of codswallop, and say you should just connect at the amp end, even with Naim power amps.

And who would you trust here to give the right advice..?

I'm still not sure what their advice is! How do Naim suggest that you connect to a REL sub given that it has a 3-pin Neutrik socket? 

Hungryhalibut posted:

All you do is connect it to one negative (black wire) and both positives (red and yellow wires) at the back of the speakers. That's it. 

Thanks Nigel, I wasn't sure if it was considered OK to connect only a single negative in this configuration. Purely academic for me, as I have an N-Sub and I'm no longer in the market for a REL, but the question still keeps popping up here every so often.

You can very carefully score, and peel back the REL high level cable casing, in order to expose sufficient lengths of the red/black/yellow inner wires, to allow for greater speaker separation. Just be sure that when you score the outer casing, you don't go all the way through (possibly damaging the inner wires). Once properly scored, you can then peel back the outer casing. If you're not comfortable doing this, any competent electrician or electronics service technician can do it for you.

The REL black negative wire only needs to go to one of your negative speaker terminals. Specifically as follows...

Right speaker: REL red to red/positive speaker terminal. REL black to black/negative speaker terminal.

Left speaker: REL yellow to red/positive speaker terminal.

 

REL Subwoofer to 202/200  , Problem solved and no need for any power supplies.

Special thanks to Richard Dane for his correct advice. Both REL and Naim techs advised wrongly.

Firstly l cannot believe that it would make a difference if l connected to power amp outputs or speaker terminals but it does.

So ive connected it all to one speaker both lives to+ and black to-. its a sort of Mono bass if you like, but l will divide the+ and run a length to the other speakers +. Most modern recordings share the bass but in the good old days it was a novelty to have drums on one side and bass on the other.

BTW the sub work perfectly from the neutrek output.

Thanks to fellow member hungryhalibut who also right.

Kevin Richardson posted:

I've had my Rel G2 hooked up to the amp for nearly 4 years and have experienced 0 problems.

Connecting at the speaker terminals just looks too messy to bother. Hard to imagine what difference it could make to the amp.

How do you mean ,when l connected power amp l had a continual loud hum, now it works perfectly.

Are you suggesting yo try it that way as Richard Dane warns against this

regards

George

FenderStratman52 posted:

REL Subwoofer to 202/200  , Problem solved and no need for any power supplies.

So ive connected it all to one speaker both lives to+ and black to-. its a sort of Mono bass if you like, but l will divide the+ and run a length to the other speakers +. Most modern recordings share the bass but in the good old days it was a novelty to have drums on one side and bass on the other.

 

Not sure if I understood correctly, but I got the impression your sub has a single channel input. ignore my comment below  if it has two separate input channels for L&R and what you've done is combined them to one main speaker terminal   

Connecting the '+' to both left and right main speaker terminals will short the outputs of the two channels together, which will result in mono from the main speakers as well (though if bi or triamping and connected to bass connections that would affect just the frequencies below the crossover).  Aside from that, I'm not sure whether the amp will be happy with it so best check with Naim first if you do plan to try.

 

FenderStratman52 posted:

REL Subwoofer to 202/200  , Problem solved and no need for any power supplies.

Special thanks to Richard Dane for his correct advice. Both REL and Naim techs advised wrongly.

Firstly l cannot believe that it would make a difference if l connected to power amp outputs or speaker terminals but it does.

So ive connected it all to one speaker both lives to+ and black to-. its a sort of Mono bass if you like, but l will divide the+ and run a length to the other speakers +. Most modern recordings share the bass but in the good old days it was a novelty to have drums on one side and bass on the other.

BTW the sub work perfectly from the neutrek output.

Thanks to fellow member hungryhalibut who also right.

Good to know you have managed to successfully connect the REL sub to the NAC 202 / NAP 200. By the way, just to inform that I run my PMC sub from the Hicap DR and it worked out great.

Innocent Bystander posted:
FenderStratman52 posted:

REL Subwoofer to 202/200  , Problem solved and no need for any power supplies.

So ive connected it all to one speaker both lives to+ and black to-. its a sort of Mono bass if you like, but l will divide the+ and run a length to the other speakers +. Most modern recordings share the bass but in the good old days it was a novelty to have drums on one side and bass on the other.

 

Not sure if I understood correctly, but I got the impression your sub has a single channel input. ignore my comment below  if it has two separate input channels for L&R and what you've done is combined them to one main speaker terminal   

Connecting the '+' to both left and right main speaker terminals will short the outputs of the two channels together, which will result in mono from the main speakers as well (though if bi or triamping and connected to bass connections that would affect just the frequencies below the crossover).  Aside from that, I'm not sure whether the amp will be happy with it so best check with Naim first if you do plan to try.

 it is only one input but you must feed the bass from both channels to match the  speakers.

l hope that makes sense. This also help early recording that have bass on one channel only.

l hope this helps and thanks for your concern

 

 

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