nd555 announcement : music matters show/ 8 march

It is not only the DAC as a chipset which determines the endresult. It is about the implementation of the DAC including all the circuitry around it that does that. Also the analogue output stages ... so implementing that Sabre DAC for example does not neccessary bring the desired results ... 

Klout10 posted:

It is not only the DAC as a chipset which determines the endresult. It is about the implementation of the DAC including all the circuitry around it that does that. Also the analogue output stages ... so implementing that Sabre DAC for example does not neccessary bring the desired results ... 

I bet it goes along way toward it though....

The current BB1704 laser trimmed DACs are now 20 years old......you might hope something else has been developed that could sound better. These were discussed as being the “wonder” chips back in 1998 in Stereophile. They were obviously good to still be around, but......

Klout10 posted:

It is not only the DAC as a chipset which determines the endresult. It is about the implementation of the DAC including all the circuitry around it that does that. Also the analogue output stages ... so implementing that Sabre DAC for example does not neccessary bring the desired results ... 

For the sake of clarity, whenever I have referred to a DAC I have meant the finished article in a box that you buy and plug in, as opposed to an integrated circuit analog to digital converor chip that needs other circuitry around it.

You could say that WAV giving the best SQ is a weakness. It implies the pipeline does not always deals with some levels of compression. Personally I’m not bothered about using WAV as I feed my CDX2 into nDAC. I can’t imagine any ND555 owner being concerned either, but perhaps with the move to Highres it could become more of an issue.

Phil

Gazza posted:

The current BB1704 laser trimmed DACs are now 20 years old.....

and of course Burr Brown ceased to be many years back, and is now a marketing brand owned by Texas Instruments. I believe the chip is called a PCM1704K and manufactured by Texas Instruments.

Edit... seems to be pulled from the TI library now.. perhaps it’s finally been discontinued?

 

I just wonder why a CD Player/transport does sound different (better IMHO) than a computer/streamer solution for digital files.
If I need to describe the differences:
1. A CDP has a soundstage - each instrument is locked in it's place.
2. A CDP has more weight of instruments.
3. A CDP has more HF and LF.
4. A streamer has a much bigger sound - instruments sounds BIG/HUGH, but the soundstage is smeared.
5. A streamer sounds more fluid - "less digital".
6. In classical music, all pianists sounds the same with the streamer (well, not exactly the same) but it's like a black box
which always output a great performance, nice to hear, nice to be there. No contrasts though, I don't hear every bit on the CD.

Do we have a "problem" with the streamer/DAC itself? How would the ND555 deal with that? A new DAC and a new computer implementation is obvious I guess.

Do we have a "problem" with serving files through the network? How would the ND555 deal with that?
A naim's switch/router? naim's ethernet cables?
A different way for files transfer? A NaimTransfer?
Nothing?

Currently I've heard many streamers from different companies, and many CD Players from different companies.
I can say that every streamer got me bored listening to music, and every CD Player caught my attention and I could
connect to the music.
Of course there are better streamers/CDP, but it's my general feeling.
The computer is always "approaches" to the CD Player, but never get there. WHY?

BP.

The opposite was the case in our house. We were convinced from the start that streamed files sounded differently better than CD playback. This is how an HDX came to replace our CDX2 and our plans to get a CDS3 were abandoned. We were able to run the CDX2 alongside the HDX for around a year. It wasn't huge but the HDX had it easily.Both standing alone and through the DAC. The latter surprised us.

The NDS moved the game on for us, a long way. More than we would have anticipated. As did dropping the HDX in favour of NAS based servers (Asset and Minimserver). Taking a break from my 25 day February work schedule this evening (you can't spend it if you don't earn it first) to listen to some treasured albums, I am genuinely perplexed at how the NDS could possibly be made to sound better. 

Could be I'm going to find out this year.

Harry posted:

The opposite was the case in our house. We were convinced from the start that streamed files sounded differently better than CD playback. This is how an HDX came to replace our CDX2 and our plans to get a CDS3 were abandoned. We were able to run the CDX2 alongside the HDX for around a year. It wasn't huge but the HDX had it easily.Both standing alone and through the DAC. The latter surprised us.

The NDS moved the game on for us, a long way. More than we would have anticipated. As did dropping the HDX in favour of NAS based servers (Asset and Minimserver). Taking a break from my 25 day February work schedule this evening (you can't spend it if you don't earn it first) to listen to some treasured albums, I am genuinely perplexed at how the NDS could possibly be made to sound better. 

Could be I'm going to find out this year.

Harry, I'm so happy for you that you enjoy the NDS. I know that you and your wife are very pleased with the streaming solution.
I'm also very appreciate your opinion.
I know others that, like you, really enjoy the new technology and I wish I could enjoy it too.
It's so fun to handle an iPad with thousands of albums - it's so convenience, but unfortunately it sounds dull to me,
especially in classical music which is 95% of my music.

Tried anything from Chord ethernet cables (Sarum & Signature), switch + iFi iPower through UnitiCore and 2X555PS DR,
the NDS sounds better with all those tweaks, but as I said before, only "approaches" to the real thing - the CD Player.

Maybe we all hear differently...

BP.

There are so many variables. It would be odd if any two set ups sounded identical. The good thing is that we have choice. Although if I was a committed CD playback fan I would be starting to worry. Unless I had a spare mechanism or two stashed. IIRC the CD555 came with a spare, ear marked at the factory.

Perhaps Naim are about to broaden your horizons? Albeit at a considerable cost.

BPhotographer posted:

I just wonder why a CD Player/transport does sound different (better IMHO) than a computer/streamer solution for digital files.
If I need to describe the differences:
1. A CDP has a soundstage - each instrument is locked in it's place.
2. A CDP has more weight of instruments.
3. A CDP has more HF and LF.
4. A streamer has a much bigger sound - instruments sounds BIG/HUGH, but the soundstage is smeared.
5. A streamer sounds more fluid - "less digital".
6. In classical music, all pianists sounds the same with the streamer (well, not exactly the same) but it's like a black box
which always output a great performance, nice to hear, nice to be there. No contrasts though, I don't hear every bit on the CD.

Do we have a "problem" with the streamer/DAC itself? How would the ND555 deal with that? A new DAC and a new computer implementation is obvious I guess.

Do we have a "problem" with serving files through the network? How would the ND555 deal with that?
A naim's switch/router? naim's ethernet cables?
A different way for files transfer? A NaimTransfer?
Nothing?

Currently I've heard many streamers from different companies, and many CD Players from different companies.
I can say that every streamer got me bored listening to music, and every CD Player caught my attention and I could
connect to the music.
Of course there are better streamers/CDP, but it's my general feeling.
The computer is always "approaches" to the CD Player, but never get there. WHY?

BP.

Hi BPhotographer. 

Maybe I can be of some help sharing my experiences. I have managed to achieve almost identical (ie I can't tell them apart) sound to my cd source using the same dac from my bespoke streaming set up and to my ears it is at least equal to Linn kds2 and NDS, which is why I eagerly await the the ND555. My system is high end Naim s800 active 500drs etc.

Firstly I have the switch at the dac end of the setup and this seems to be imperative. I have the Paul pang zytech with oxco clock with Naim hicap level power supply and this is the best I have tried. The Ethernet cable from the switch to the renderer is fine tuning the sound, I found high end cables I have tried take the life from the music, even to the extent I preferred the duronic cable on Amazon to be incredible value at £1.99 and very musical, however I have now settled on the ppang at £110 as being the best I have tried.

I use the ultra rendu again powered by a hicap level power supply plugged directly into the dac with no lead just usb adapter plug.

I use the emm labs cd and dac from there with Logitech music software.

It makes it easy to compare any "upgrades" and I go directly back to the cd, because as I have said many times, people plug in upgrades and think it sounds better because it sounds different and don't go back after a week or so.

RICHYH posted:
BPhotographer posted:

I just wonder why a CD Player/transport does sound different (better IMHO) than a computer/streamer solution for digital files.
If I need to describe the differences:
1. A CDP has a soundstage - each instrument is locked in it's place.
2. A CDP has more weight of instruments.
3. A CDP has more HF and LF.
4. A streamer has a much bigger sound - instruments sounds BIG/HUGH, but the soundstage is smeared.
5. A streamer sounds more fluid - "less digital".
6. In classical music, all pianists sounds the same with the streamer (well, not exactly the same) but it's like a black box
which always output a great performance, nice to hear, nice to be there. No contrasts though, I don't hear every bit on the CD.

Do we have a "problem" with the streamer/DAC itself? How would the ND555 deal with that? A new DAC and a new computer implementation is obvious I guess.

Do we have a "problem" with serving files through the network? How would the ND555 deal with that?
A naim's switch/router? naim's ethernet cables?
A different way for files transfer? A NaimTransfer?
Nothing?

Currently I've heard many streamers from different companies, and many CD Players from different companies.
I can say that every streamer got me bored listening to music, and every CD Player caught my attention and I could
connect to the music.
Of course there are better streamers/CDP, but it's my general feeling.
The computer is always "approaches" to the CD Player, but never get there. WHY?

BP.

.

Firstly I have the switch at the dac end of the setup and this seems to be imperative. I have the Paul pang zytech with oxco clock with Naim hicap level power supply and this is the best I have tried. The Ethernet cable from the switch to the renderer is fine tuning the sound, I found high end cables I have tried take the life from the music, even to the extent I preferred the duronic cable on Amazon to be incredible value at £1.99 and very musical, however I have now settled on the ppang at £110 as being the best I have tried.

I use the ultra rendu again powered by a hicap level power supply plugged directly into the dac with no lead just usb adapter plug.

 

I think store-renderers, like Melco, Core, Innuos Zenith (and various more DIY solutions) feeding a DAC direct make getting decent streaming a lot easier, because they rule out any influence of the network, which seem to cause perennial problems and/or tweaking to optimise (though some people find a simple and unsophisticated network works perfectly). 

As fir the difference between CD and streaming, firstly of course comparison is only of relevance with the same DAC, as that alone can have a huge influence on the sound. All else being equal (DAC, quality of electronics, etc), CD inherently has more potential for degradation of the signal than streaming a digital music file,  e.g. having to be read from a spinning disk that may have imperfections, and associated error-correction algorithms, so if anything I would expect streaming to sound better -and then there is the potential for streaming to improve further with hi res material. However, more pointedly, the question of which sounds better to the listener’s ears depends on the listener - witness the different opinions about which of Naim’s CDPs sounds better. 

This, to me, is why the nd555 is pivotal moment in streaming. It is the first time Naim have designed and built an extreme high end streamer, and going by the rest of the 500 series it must be something special. To beat the Linn ds3 must be the first objective, as it will be more expensive.

RICHYH posted:

This, to me, is why the nd555 is pivotal moment in streaming. It is the first time Naim have designed and built an extreme high end streamer, and going by the rest of the 500 series it must be something special. To beat the Linn ds3 must be the first objective, as it will be more expensive.

When it was introduced, wasn’t NDS an extreme high end streamer?

Chag... posted:
RICHYH posted:

To beat the Linn ds3 must be the first objective, as it will be more expensive.

I thought the NDS already did that. 

Chag -

 

It would seem that reviewer Martin Colloms is in agreement, if his scores are anything to go by:

Linn KDS/3 - 160

NDS/555PSDR - 300

Almost twice as good!

RICHYH posted:

This, to me, is why the nd555 is pivotal moment in streaming. It is the first time Naim have designed and built an extreme high end streamer, and going by the rest of the 500 series it must be something special. To beat the Linn ds3 must be the first objective, as it will be more expensive.

Aspiring to match the Chord Dave or the Linn DS3 is probably raising the bar and expectations just a little too far!

Hopefully it might match, or perhaps even better something like an NDX/Hugo or microRendu/Hugo. Now that's something a little more realistic to aim for! However, when you add on the price of the twin matching power supplies it might well be just a little more expensive. 

Hmack posted:
RICHYH posted:

This, to me, is why the nd555 is pivotal moment in streaming. It is the first time Naim have designed and built an extreme high end streamer, and going by the rest of the 500 series it must be something special. To beat the Linn ds3 must be the first objective, as it will be more expensive.

Aspiring to match the Chord Dave or the Linn DS3 is probably raising the bar and expectations just a little too far!

Hopefully it might match, or perhaps even better something like an NDX/Hugo or microRendu/Hugo. Now that's something a little more realistic to aim for! However, when you add on the price of the twin matching power supplies it might well be just a little more expensive. 

Hi Hmack

I cannot see how the aim to beat Linn DS3 is raising the bar too far, Naim are an excellent company and with Linn there is a great rivalry, I think this will be the first aim from a 500 series streamer designers. Whereas the Chord is just a dac, so maybe another argument. 

RICHYH posted:
Hmack posted:
RICHYH posted:

This, to me, is why the nd555 is pivotal moment in streaming. It is the first time Naim have designed and built an extreme high end streamer, and going by the rest of the 500 series it must be something special. To beat the Linn ds3 must be the first objective, as it will be more expensive.

Aspiring to match the Chord Dave or the Linn DS3 is probably raising the bar and expectations just a little too far!

Hopefully it might match, or perhaps even better something like an NDX/Hugo or microRendu/Hugo. Now that's something a little more realistic to aim for! However, when you add on the price of the twin matching power supplies it might well be just a little more expensive. 

Hi Hmack

I cannot see how the aim to beat Linn DS3 is raising the bar too far, Naim are an excellent company and with Linn there is a great rivalry, I think this will be the first aim from a 500 series streamer designers. Whereas the Chord is just a dac, so maybe another argument. 

Hi RICHYH,

My post was intended to be taken very much tongue in cheek, and was aimed primarily at the similarly tongue in cheek (I think) remarks about the Martin Colloms review. I have heard the current NDS/500DR and I think it's very good indeed, although my particular tastes run more to the most recent versions of the KDS (from DS/1 onwards). 

I have no doubt that the new ND555 will be very fine indeed, and may well challenge or even better the KDS/3. However, if it does, it won't be by much. There are a number of very good competing streamers and DACs at a similar price range to that of the NDS and ND555. It really all comes down to personal subjective preference, and improvements are becoming harder to come by.

I won't be purchasing an ND555 when it comes out, but I say this only because for me, an upgrade from DS/1 to DS/3 (one of the benefits of owning a KDS or KDSM) would be very much less expensive and more affordable. I am very comfortable with my current system (more so than I think I have ever been), and I no longer feel the inclination (nor have the pockets) to spend huge amounts of money on relatively small improvements.      

Add Reply

Likes (0)
×
×
×
×