nds with other dac in spdif or aes/ebu

Kevin Richardson posted:

Some people believe the Hugo is an upgrade from NDS so guessing many top shelf DACs will provide better/different sq.

i don!t believe that a 2k dac can be an upgrade over a 20k streaming/ dac. I don't believe in father Christmas anymore.   I don't want to be unpleasant with you, just this some people believe is ridiculous for me. A chord dave perhaps, but i am more thinking of msb diamond or dcs debussy. 

 

 

 

 

 

Kevin Richardson posted:

Some people believe the Hugo is an upgrade from NDS so guessing many top shelf DACs will provide better/different sq.

Indeed some indeed do feel this, essentially the NDS and a Hugo use different methods of DAC reconstruction with the Hugo using more recent technically enabled mathematical enhancements to analogue reconstruction, where as the NDS is a more traditional approach and implementation using established especially selected quality TI converter chips and Analog Devices programmable DSP (SHARC processor)  extremely well. As analogue reconstruction is ultimately a compromise this is always going to boil down to personal preference and the key cues your brain uses in listening to audio. However a digital transport is essential when feeding into a DAC, it effectively reduces cross talk from the input data stream affecting the DAC reconstruction, and here the NDS is extremely effective.

Keler Pierre posted:
Kevin Richardson posted:

Some people believe the Hugo is an upgrade from NDS so guessing many top shelf DACs will provide better/different sq.

i don!t believe that a 2k dac can be an upgrade over a 20k streaming/ dac. I don't believe in father Christmas anymore.   I don't want to be unpleasant with you, just this some people believe is ridiculous for me. A chord dave perhaps, but i am more thinking of msb diamond or dcs debussy. 

 

 

 

 

 

Why ask a question and then say you don't believe the answers you get?

It'll sound different but then you lose what is good about the NDS - a single box (+ power supply) with Naim analogue excellence. If you like what it does then you probably won't find better.

I'd also question the value of the NDS used in this fashion though and would consider fronting the DAC of your choice with something like the Aurender W20 which is a far more flexible product. 

James

james n posted:

It'll sound different but then you lose what is good about the NDS - a single box (+ power supply) with Naim analogue excellence. If you like what it does then you probably won't find better.

I'd also question the value of the NDS used in this fashion though and would consider fronting the DAC of your choice with something like the Aurender W20 which is a far more flexible product. 

James

You should get a friendlier suppy -- 16,500 GBP should be expensive enough to make him bellieve that the Aurender could present an improvement. But who knows -- he might be "unpleasant" again and ridicule your suggestion...

james n posted:

It'll sound different but then you lose what is good about the NDS - a single box (+ power supply) with Naim analogue excellence. If you like what it does then you probably won't find better.

I'd also question the value of the NDS used in this fashion though and would consider fronting the DAC of your choice with something like the Aurender W20 which is a far more flexible product. 

James

your response is interesting for me and perhaps i will do something like that in the future, like aurender/msb diamond or melco/ high end dac. But i will have to verify if i prefer the sound of this combo to the nds.  I am searching feedbacks from members who have could compare these other possibilities. But the least expensive would be just to add a dac to the nds.

Hungryhalibut posted:
Keler Pierre posted:
Kevin Richardson posted:

Some people believe the Hugo is an upgrade from NDS so guessing many top shelf DACs will provide better/different sq.

i don!t believe that a 2k dac can be an upgrade over a 20k streaming/ dac. I don't believe in father Christmas anymore.   I don't want to be unpleasant with you, just this some people believe is ridiculous for me. A chord dave perhaps, but i am more thinking of msb diamond or dcs debussy. 

 

 

 

 

 

Why ask a question and then say you don't believe the answers you get?

hugo is a little dac vs nds.

Timo posted:
james n posted:

It'll sound different but then you lose what is good about the NDS - a single box (+ power supply) with Naim analogue excellence. If you like what it does then you probably won't find better.

I'd also question the value of the NDS used in this fashion though and would consider fronting the DAC of your choice with something like the Aurender W20 which is a far more flexible product. 

James

You should get a friendlier suppy -- 16,500 GBP should be expensive enough to make him bellieve that the Aurender could present an improvement. But who knows -- he might be "unpleasant" again and ridicule your suggestion...

if you believe that a 2k dac, even very good as the hugo, can be better than a 20k streaming dac, you believe in father christmas.  Nds is a 2012 product, so not very old.   But price is not all, you are right: chord dave/ 8k is in the same category as nds/555dr, twice as expensive. But chord hugo is definitely not in the same competition!

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
Gary Shaw posted:

Mmmmm...sausages. Brown or red sauce?

Hmm I prefer Branston... 

To the OP, you might want to just mind your manners, you invite comment and opinion and then are rude to those that were bothered to reply to you... it's just not the way to do it old chap....

in my comment i just said " persons who believe in that hugo is an upgrade over nds" are saying something ridiculous. I was not saying that to Kevin. I even said that " i don't want to be unpleasant with you".  I am a little direct but honest, and i hate "political correct".  Kevin had not even said he believes in the hugo/ better than nds camp...  

Anyway i am just tired, but i am not the only one, by the "hugo throwing " in the vast majority of topics.  But my intention was not to be unpleasant with anybody...

Kevin Richardson posted:

My Berkeley Alpha DAC is much better than the NDS. Try one if you can.... Not sure if they can be sold in EU. 

you say that your berkeley alpha dac is much better than nds: have you had the nds at home?  how could you compare both?  the berkeley is only usb, so you can't put it on the nds. The price of this dac is 2k, the nds near 20 k.  The berkeley dac is intended to be put in a computer, from what i read.  So i don't seee how you could compare both?  but i am curious....

I also read some reviews: the berkeley alpha dac is the entry level from berkeley. The berkeley alpha REFERENCE dac is around 18 k, not the same league, and was compared to the chord dave. The shoot out in the review shows that berkeley alpha reference is in the same league as the chord, the chord better on some aspects and the berkeley on others. The nds was also compared to the dave in hificritic, and no one was really better, the chord was more analog, the nds had more prat.  To conclude, if i refer to some reviews i read, berkeley alpha reference, chord dave, naim nds, are close competitors.  But i doubt that berkeley alpha/ 2k / entry level, can compete with the berkeley alpha reference/ 19 k/ state of the art dac, and so compete as well with dave and nds.

Pierre,

you are going to have a hard time finding someone using nds as a drive to another dac or having done that comparison , since it makes little sense money wise , and nds is very hard to beat in a naim system.

If you are looking for worthy competitors to the nds ( as the dac). You should look at what people are using in combination with a belcanto refstream for example ( who challenges or maybe beats nds as a drive).

Besides the chord dave you are mentionning, i would audition the totaldac d1-twelve or Totaldac d1-six. Those dacs have different strengths than nds, but you may find something that suits best than the nds

Is there a correlation in a production cost of a dac with its musicality/performance?

Ör goods dacs are expensive because they sound good.

Isnt the production cost of a dac is a fraction of retail price?

How the marketing and distribution costs kick in?

Take schiit vs chord

Direct stelling vs distribution 

Is it wise to classify them looking at the retail price?

Naim will be 2 times more expensive from a direct selling new brand,even the sound and cost are the same...

Marketing,branding,distribution cost,profit margin expectations etc

Emre posted:

Is there a correlation in a production cost of a dac with its musicality/performance?

Ör goods dacs are expensive because they sound good.

Isnt the production cost of a dac is a fraction of retail price?

How the marketing and distribution costs kick in?

Take schiit vs chord

Direct stelling vs distribution 

Is it wise to classify them looking at the retail price?

Naim will be 2 times more expensive from a direct selling new brand,even the sound and cost are the same...

Marketing,branding,distribution cost,profit margin expectations etc

yes, you are right globally. But it is just logic to say that if chord dave is on the same league as naim nds as to sound quality, a chord hugo, scale down dac vs dave, can't sound better.

On vastly aspects, cdx2 is better than cd5x which is better than cd5i.  Chord dave better than hugo and hugo better than mojo. Berkeley alpha reference better than alpha.

Nds is , on sound quality, in the league of dave and berkeley reference. So it is impossible than chord hugo or berkeley alpha ( not reference) can upgrade the nds.  

It is just that. I don't said that if you pay more you will have more. Dave is twice less expensive than nds but competitive on sound quality.

Stringerbell posted:

Pierre,

you are going to have a hard time finding someone using nds as a drive to another dac or having done that comparison , since it makes little sense money wise , and nds is very hard to beat in a naim system.

If you are looking for worthy competitors to the nds ( as the dac). You should look at what people are using in combination with a belcanto refstream for example ( who challenges or maybe beats nds as a drive).

Besides the chord dave you are mentionning, i would audition the totaldac d1-twelve or Totaldac d1-six. Those dacs have different strengths than nds, but you may find something that suits best than the nds

i am aware of the lot different options: totaldac, linn klimax ds3, dcs bridge/ dac, aurender/dcs,  melco/ msb....

A lot of people had put a naim dac on the ndx or hdx, wich had already a dac inside. So why not try to put a dac , better that inside nds, on the nds. The risk is to change the naim sound, i am also aware of it.  But it can also preserve the majority of the qualities of the nds and add some others. 

I have already read a review of someone who put a dcs debussy/ uclock on the nds, and found a major improvement. It is the only one experience that i found on this possibility.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Berkeley doesn't have USB input only AES & BNC. I use a NDX to feed mine via BNC.

Everything in HiFi is subjective.

None of this matters since I've decided to buy a Linn Klimax Exakt system.... One box, 2 speakers, and 3 Ethernet cables.

you have made a very good choice,  all is perhaps better optimized than adding different components with each other. I hope you will enjoy.

SongStream posted:

No such thing as better with hifi, but some products are preferable.  Price has no direct influence over which products are preferable.  I prefer inexpensive things to be preferable, but if they're not, it gets expensive.

everyone wants to pay less and have more....and sometimes less expensive components can be more musical and enjoyable. The most important thing is to have pleasure in listening, and also the feeling that in our listening room it is as in concert. But this last search costs a lot of money.

I just came from a rock concert, in the street. I realized how different drums can sound in reality. My system is far away from real concert sounding in my room...But no matter, i continue to go to live concerts....

SongStream posted:

No such thing as better with hifi, but some products are preferable.  Price has no direct influence over which products are preferable.  I prefer inexpensive things to be preferable, but if they're not, it gets expensive.

I agree totally this... price has no direct influence over which products are preferable... sure the very cheap end of the market will almost always sound limiting, but above a certain point price seems to matter less.. and it's down to personal preference. Certainly when it comes to digital devices, performance/cost ratios have massively improved in recent years. Hardly surprising, think of the cost and room size of computers in the 1970s costing hundreds of thousands of pounds and now the same if not better performance can be had for a few pounds in the size of a matchbox.

Keler Pierre posted:

i found a recent review of the dcs bridge by Andrew Everardt on hifi news: the dcs bridge put on the digital output of the nds, gave an improvement in the sound.  The bridge is not a dac but a network bridge....

Hi @French Rooster, sorry but this isn't what was done in this article. I'm afraid you may have read to quickly.

In the review, he compares directly the on-boarding streaming of the dCS vs NDS and in his opinion they are a match. He connects the dCS to the digital input of the NDS and compares both streamers going through the internal DAC of the NDS.

Incidentally, I was able to listen to the dCS network bridge vs NAC 272 (w/ XPS DR) for the past 3 days. I was using the digital output of the NAC 272 to compare apples to apples.

I, my wife, two of my audiophile friends all unanimously voted the 272 as better than the dCS but by a small margin. 

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