network streaming tweaks

vtpcnk posted:

hi guys, i have been watching the posts and frankly much of it went over my head.

can i know where in the chain : router -> switch -> unitiqute - the TP-Link MC110CS and the TrippLite fibre optic cables are supposed to fit in?

a 100 dollar tweak is definitely my kinda tweak :-)

appreciate the clarification.

router-switch-tp link mc110cs then optical fiber tp mc110cs then lan to uniqute.  the tp links are the bridge between the first switch and the uniqute. ( so 3 lan cables needed).  if you have a nas, the nas is connected to the first switch.

Obsydian posted:
French Rooster posted:
Obsydian posted:
French Rooster posted:
Obsydian posted:

Mr Rooster, Chrissu and Charlesphoto - firstly many thanks for your help, patience and guidance.

I received the MC110CS and fibre wire today, all plugged in all left as default, my switch picked it up quick, green lights all go : )

I had been listening allot more over the last few days and purposely circling back to 10 tracks on USB HiRes and Tidal HIFI, oh and best of all DSD64 Thriller.

All I can say instant recognisable improvement, the greater darkness, wider soundstage, detail resolution, floating backing vocals, even clearer placement of singer's, instruments, etc... but clearly another few layers of haze gone, just makes the music flow with such ease tenpted to crank up the volume but wanted a level playing field to compare - but most important serious boogie factor. Is one of those upgrades that makes you listen to your collection all over again for what you missed.

So I suppose as with all things there is some break in time for maybe a further improvement.

Oh The DSD Thriller and I have two others, which to me give you that air and floating soundtage, well it only gets better eerily with this addition.

Mr Rooster I will try the ifi power plugs, hoping to resist it to at least enjoy this upgrade. Oh just remembered need to use my spare C Stream.

Oh Total price of upgrade was £62 now that's a no brainer.

i am very happy you enjoy this tweak which is finally more than a tweak.  For around 100 GBP you have a big improvement. Perhaps you will convince Simon in the suffolk, who knows?

For ifi power, they must be 5 v i think ( all is behind my rack so difficult to check now).  Yes, you will here still an improvement for about 2X 45 GBP, i guarantee it to you.

I you use a nas, perhaps in the future, you can also replace the stock smps by ifi power or linear ps( if possible to connect dc power).   

Simon says we are all bonkers : )

Yes wasn' sure what voltage to order for the ifi as I thin 4 possible.

No NAS for me just Tidal and albums I really like I buy HiRes downloads.

5 v ifi power for tp link mc 110 cs, i just checked.

You say you buy hirez downloads, but where are they stocked?    and your ripped cds?    I don’t want specially that you invest in more components, so sorry to ask. But if you stream from your pc or mac, you can do better in the future, for not so much money.   A pc or mac as server/ nas is a noisy environment.  The majority of us use nas or unitserve or uniticore or mac mini with linear ps.  But perhaps you don’t use your pc.....

Thanks for checking ordering 5v.

USB dongle into the Nova.

Concede it's better but for me Tidal is just convenient so a reasonable compromise, plus the USB HiRes allows me to assess how much I am missing or not. Plus I use Tidal in my phone and car so at home makes it seamless.

ah ok, i have not thought of that possibility.  so you need no more components, just enjoy.  

The only problem will be if in the future you will have thousands of music on the usb:  a nas will be a better and funny option, all music present on your ipad.  Or you can have multiple usb too.

vtpcnk posted:

 so is the point of two TP-Link MC110CS in the chain just to put the sound/bits/bytes through a Fiber cable? 

it removes all the noise. But i cannot tell you more.  You can see computer audiophile or audio stream site.  Michael Lavorgna, electrically isolate your network audio, a review that explains ( audiostream)

vtpcnk posted:

with mc110cs there are multiple models on amazon :

https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link...ords=tp-link+mc110cs

https://www.amazon.com/2KA4939...ords=tp-link+mc110cs

https://www.amazon.com/Tp-Link...ords=tp-link+mc110cs

not sure if they are the same as prices differ. which is the right one?

all are the same, tp link mc110cs.... just different prices.  see the cost of the shipping....

vtpcnk posted:

so can there be a router which can also have builtin the capability of mc110cs ?

wonder if the unitiserve has some of the capability?

i don’t understand your question, sorry.  You have your commercial router for tv and ethernet and phone, the dedicated switch for the uniqute and nas.  When you add the tp links converters, your uniqute will be connected to the second tp link and your nas to the switch.

The tp link can carry ethernet in optical fiber.  Go to the Michael Lavorgna review i indicated you.  You have just to buy the 2 tp links mc110cs with optical fibers .  

vtpcnk posted:

oops sorry - i meant a switch with the built in capability of the tp-link.

i don’t know. But even if it exists, you will need a second tp link and fiber optic cables between them.  I can’t help more, i just follow the schematic and it works.  You have also more simple components like the acoustic revive lan isolator and the etalon isolator. The etalon is better and costs around 350GBP.  I had before the acoustic revive lan isolator but found the optical fiber bridge better, but by a small margin.   It is a very little component and easier to hide and install vs the optical bridge.   You have the choice.

vtpcnk posted:

btw for nas what is the minimum recommended RAM - 512 mb or 1gb or 2 gb?

and cpu speed?

any recommendations?

If it's just for music storage and serving, you do not need a high spec NAS. Any of the lower spec Synology DS series will be fine, or a comparable QNAP or ReadyNas. My DS115 has 512MB memory and an 800MHz CPU, and it never breaks a sweat.

vtpcnk posted:

btw for nas what is the minimum recommended RAM - 512 mb or 1gb or 2 gb?

and cpu speed?

any recommendations?

I am using a Synology DS413J with MinimServer onboard.  So, as implied, four (WD 2TB Red) hard drives in an economical NAS of 2013 vintage.  Still works.  Next time, I might try a QNAP with two drives.

Nick

a colleague of mine told me that fiber optic cables are used instead of ethernet cables where the signal is to be carried over a longer distance. how this treatment of the signal by fiber optic is altering it for the better in audio is something of a mystery. btw there are switches with fiber optic ports like the cisco sg300. but the 10 port model only has mini gbic ports. but the bigger models have full size fiber ports.

couple of days back on my naim app, to my surprise, jriver appeared along with asset upnp. so i played a few songs thru jriver but found it boomy in comparison to asset.

so is asset the best upnp for audio?

but asset apparently is not install(able) on the most affordable nas - the wd cloud.

qnap seems to be the preferred nas for asset. but its rasberry version can apparently be deployed on synology..

what is the forum members opinion on the upnp services like asset, twonky, minimserver etc?

is one to be preferred over the other for sq?

appreciate the insights.

 

vtpcnk posted:

a colleague of mine told me that fiber optic cables are used instead of ethernet cables where the signal is to be carried over a longer distance. how this treatment of the signal by fiber optic is altering it for the better in audio is something of a mystery. btw there are switches with fiber optic ports like the cisco sg300. but the 10 port model only has mini gbic ports. but the bigger models have full size fiber ports.

i am not a scientific and can’t give you technical explanations. But we are a lot to be very pleased with the network bridge ( fmc converters and fiber optic). You can read experiences of members on computer audiophile, audio stream, home cinema fr forum, devialet chat....and this forum. It costs less than 100GBP and if not pleased, you can return.  Try first, theory is not all....

 

the minute u said we need to link 2 media convertors - my first thought was to check if it was possible to reduce the links in the chain. so i looked for a switch with a fiber optic port and found the sg300. there are other ones as well. the principle is the same. but with a reduction in the number of links involved. so it will be router  -> switch with fiber optic port -> media convertor -> unitiqute. but this might be more expensive than the setup you proposed..

Well, ironically enough just started a Roon/Tidal trial and am blown away. Using the Roon Core on my Mac Pro cylinder in the office, and the only way to play on my ancient UQ is via toslink, therefore bypassing the ethernet and FMC's. Sounds amazing and no different. The FMC's in the main rig stay though. I was planning on buying a new amp this year but it looks like a Roon lifetime subscription instead. Love the "radio" shuffle function, esp at work. Naim never could get it together with shuffle. Will probably get a dedicated NUC at some point for Roon, but for now the Mac pro works and sounds just fine and ordered more RAM for it so should be even better (between Roon and Lightroom it was starting to max out the 16gb). 

vtpcnk posted:

the minute u said we need to link 2 media convertors - my first thought was to check if it was possible to reduce the links in the chain. so i looked for a switch with a fiber optic port and found the sg300. there are other ones as well. the principle is the same. but with a reduction in the number of links involved. so it will be router  -> switch with fiber optic port -> media convertor -> unitiqute. but this might be more expensive than the setup you proposed..

and i don’t know if sg300 will work with the second tp link....If you want more simple, just a single component and very little, with quite the same results as the network bridge, you have: acoustic revive lan isolator or etalon isolator. you have just to connect this lan isolator to your uniqute ethernet port and your lan cable to this isolator.  

French Rooster posted:
vtpcnk posted:

a colleague of mine told me that fiber optic cables are used instead of ethernet cables where the signal is to be carried over a longer distance. how this treatment of the signal by fiber optic is altering it for the better in audio is something of a mystery. btw there are switches with fiber optic ports like the cisco sg300. but the 10 port model only has mini gbic ports. but the bigger models have full size fiber ports.

i am not a scientific and can’t give you technical explanations. But we are a lot to be very pleased with the network bridge ( fmc converters and fiber optic). You can read experiences of members on computer audiophile, audio stream, home cinema fr forum, devialet chat....and this forum. It costs less than 100GBP and if not pleased, you can return.  Try first, theory is not all....

 

Just remember if you are fibre to twisted pair bridge, what you are calling a media converter, you are NOT electrically isolating your network. You are creating a new electrical source and physical clock source for your twisted pair sound. This will be directly undermining any benefit is using a quality physical clock on a switch port etc. A quality converter will not be cheap.

Now any reduced physical quality of the clock and common mode isolation on the converter will cause intermodulation products and digital noise coupled into the streamer... this might smoothen the sound whilst robbing micro detail and presence... depending on your audio system this might be prefereable. However if so I would be looking at ones transport rather than attempting keyhole surgery by effecting the by products of the transport by varying the Ethernet physical layer quality.

Now when Naim directly use fibre SFPs on their devices, then the benefit of non electrical  connectivity, like Wifi we can do Now, can be realised.

So don’t get me wrong, tweak away and adjust the sound. Just be careful on your causes of the effects, as I don’t think it mostly is as you believe. To my mind  its kind of like changing the ghosting on an analogue TV with a small indoor  loop antenna, by twisting the antenna to get the best picture.

There is nothing new here, and emf coupling from the Ethernet PHY layer is well understood, and I have referenced engineering design guides mitigating the effects on this forum from manufacturers like TI. Using quality and well designed physical interfaces is normally the mitigation here. Just remember many consumer and even commercial grade products don’t have this level of detail and componentry applied as it’s not necessary for their applications.

Simon

Right take 3 - tired to post this twice yesterday, but each time the site went .....

Mr Rooster, Chrissu and Charlesphoto - thanks for the IFI PS guidance, i could not resist given the fiber bridge upgrade, so picked up 2 x 5V, IFI PS and  arrived home, spent an hour listening to the current setup, then introduced the IFI PS to both FMC.

Is it any good ... YES overall its like a few layers uncovered.

Bass lines are firmer, most tracks it just enhances, but on others its changed what i recall as one solid lean note, to now clear controlled strands each clearly identifiable.

Vocals are sublime, just hanging in dark empty space, not sandwiched with the rest of the sound stage, making it seem busy before. Backing vocalists are now vividly clear with ease, on two tracks i released it was two singers not just a change in tone of the main singer.

Sound stage is so precise and everything clearly in position not general haze, again emphasizing that emptiness between each element within the sound stage. I did feel on some tracks the sound stage seems smaller (on others it really stretches out at you), but again it is that darkness around it, suppose that is what some describe as the noise floor lowering.

In summary for £95 an amazing upgrade.

The fiber bridge was like a slap in the face (smile) improvement, the IFI PS was more fundamental, bringing order, ease, poise, control, detail, dynamics.

I'd like to say at some point I WILL switch back to just the switch to Nova, but honestly i am so happy with the improvement i do not plan to meddle with it.

That said as Chrissu mentioned as i mainly stream maybe an IFI PS on the Router, but i assumed two on each FMC was sufficient, but then i thought a switch was 

Obsydian posted:

Right take 3 - tired to post this twice yesterday, but each time the site went .....

Mr Rooster, Chrissu and Charlesphoto - thanks for the IFI PS guidance, i could not resist given the fiber bridge upgrade, so picked up 2 x 5V, IFI PS and  arrived home, spent an hour listening to the current setup, then introduced the IFI PS to both FMC.

Is it any good ... YES overall its like a few layers uncovered.

Bass lines are firmer, most tracks it just enhances, but on others its changed what i recall as one solid lean note, to now clear controlled strands each clearly identifiable.

Vocals are sublime, just hanging in dark empty space, not sandwiched with the rest of the sound stage, making it seem busy before. Backing vocalists are now vividly clear with ease, on two tracks i released it was two singers not just a change in tone of the main singer.

Sound stage is so precise and everything clearly in position not general haze, again emphasizing that emptiness between each element within the sound stage. I did feel on some tracks the sound stage seems smaller (on others it really stretches out at you), but again it is that darkness around it, suppose that is what some describe as the noise floor lowering.

In summary for £95 an amazing upgrade.

The fiber bridge was like a slap in the face (smile) improvement, the IFI PS was more fundamental, bringing order, ease, poise, control, detail, dynamics.

I'd like to say at some point I WILL switch back to just the switch to Nova, but honestly i am so happy with the improvement i do not plan to meddle with it.

That said as Chrissu mentioned as i mainly stream maybe an IFI PS on the Router, but i assumed two on each FMC was sufficient, but then i thought a switch was 

i am very glad you enjoy this network bridge with ifi power now.  You will spend a good weekend listening to music.  As you use cisco switch, i am not sure that ifi power on the router will help a lot, maybe....

Chrissu - sorry someone did, no matter.

Was too excited and came back to work from home at 11AM. Been going through many old but very familiar tracks i used as reference, and so much better, more dynamic, more detailed, sound stage is sublime - again a number of tracks are reinvented in the sense the layers peeled back and veil uncovered. I just started to crank up the volume though 

"simon in suffolk" - in another thread you have said : "a  little Wifi access point glued onto the Broadband router in one point in the house just ain’t going to cut it reliably enough.. possibly it has been this low performance that has led some to think Wifi is not suitable for streaming.. "

can i know your views on optimal network configuration for a unitiqute in the bedroom? i already have a hardwired unitiqute in the living room and would like to know how i can optimally configure the network for another unitiqute in the bedroom.

appreciate the insights.

vtpcnk posted:

"simon in suffolk" - in another thread you have said : "a  little Wifi access point glued onto the Broadband router in one point in the house just ain’t going to cut it reliably enough.. possibly it has been this low performance that has led some to think Wifi is not suitable for streaming.. "

can i know your views on optimal network configuration for a unitiqute in the bedroom? i already have a hardwired unitiqute in the living room and would like to know how i can optimally configure the network for another unitiqute in the bedroom.

appreciate the insights.

the same as Obsydian installed, with tp link mc110cs X2 and 2 optical fibers. eventually ifi power 5 v for each tp link.  All is described in this topic Vtpcnk.....Obsydian wrote exactly what he bought recently.  Also dedicated switch, connected to your router.

Obsydian posted:

Chrissu - sorry someone did, no matter.

Was too excited and came back to work from home at 11AM. Been going through many old but very familiar tracks i used as reference, and so much better, more dynamic, more detailed, sound stage is sublime - again a number of tracks are reinvented in the sense the layers peeled back and veil uncovered. I just started to crank up the volume though 

So glad it worked out for you. Next step is Roon which I think the new Uniti line is ready for. Upsampling via Roon to 128DSD to the DAC V1 and it’s fabulous. Even bypassing the ethernet altogether in the office and going toslink out from the Mac Pro where the Roon core resides and upsampling to 24/96 on my ancient UQ is revelatory. It is more $ for hardware (if you don't have already) and software but imo a much better investment than some four figure cable. 

vtpcnk posted:

"simon in suffolk" - in another thread you have said : "a  little Wifi access point glued onto the Broadband router in one point in the house just ain’t going to cut it reliably enough.. possibly it has been this low performance that has led some to think Wifi is not suitable for streaming.. "

can i know your views on optimal network configuration for a unitiqute in the bedroom? i already have a hardwired unitiqute in the living room and would like to know how i can optimally configure the network for another unitiqute in the bedroom.

appreciate the insights.

If there’s no ethernet cable to where the UQ resides, then you might try a repeater/extender that plugs into the wall and then a cable from that to the UQ. I think bypassing the UQ’s own WiFi is going to be the best bet for robustness and stability. 

charlesphoto posted:
Obsydian posted:

Chrissu - sorry someone did, no matter.

Was too excited and came back to work from home at 11AM. Been going through many old but very familiar tracks i used as reference, and so much better, more dynamic, more detailed, sound stage is sublime - again a number of tracks are reinvented in the sense the layers peeled back and veil uncovered. I just started to crank up the volume though 

So glad it worked out for you. Next step is Roon which I think the new Uniti line is ready for. Upsampling via Roon to 128DSD to the DAC V1 and it’s fabulous. Even bypassing the ethernet altogether in the office and going toslink out from the Mac Pro where the Roon core resides and upsampling to 24/96 on my ancient UQ is revelatory. It is more $ for hardware (if you don't have already) and software but imo a much better investment than some four figure cable. 

Is Roon really improving the sound quality?   There seems to be divergent points of view on this subject. Some find no improvement, other prefer audionirvana or minim server....

And you?

>with tp link mc110cs X2 and 2 optical fibers. eventually ifi power 5 v for each tp link.

2 optical fibers? i thought there was only one optical fiber cable between the two mc110cs?

regarding the 5v ps , can i know which one pls so i can have an idea. tks.

Well, like everything in computer audio it’s probably a moving target, and it may vary from system to system. What I will say is that the combo of Roon/Tidal has greatly improved my love of music - it’s often too easy to get swept up in minute sound changes to the detriment of discovering new music and seamlessly playing it (even from one’s own collection). And the Roon interface blows the Naim app and others out of the water. Had a Kraurock evening last night and discovered and “added” lots of great stuff to my collection. Now, of course if Tidal goes bust then I don’t any of it, but at least I’ll know what’s out there... it’s like having a record store that’s a lending library in your living room! And the Roon interface with Tidal is the best part and I’m sure will only be getting better. I think most limitations are on the Tidal end - they really do need a new UI designer. 

Eventually I’ll get a low power NUC as a dedicated server but for now it does well on my Mac Pro. I turned off audio analyzing, volume leveling, etc. and even with upsampling have it only using about 10% of my cores (important since it’s my photo biz work machine). No idea why people are bothering spending the $ they are on the Naim Core, when one could buy a much better dedicated server and have plenty of $ left over for a lifetime subscription to Roon. 

vtpcnk posted:

>with tp link mc110cs X2 and 2 optical fibers. eventually ifi power 5 v for each tp link.

2 optical fibers? i thought there was only one optical fiber cable between the two mc110cs?

regarding the 5v ps , can i know which one pls so i can have an idea. tks.

2X TPLINK MC110CS

1X SC (single mode) optical cable

iFi 5v iPower - I think they only make one model in 5v. Best to separate upstream and downstream FMC’s on different circuits for the ultimate in sound quality but with a simple UQ setup wouldn’t bother. You could even power both from the same iFi with a simple DC Y splitter though will probably sound better with two. Most important is the FMC nearest the UQ. 

Ok that’s it. Now just go do it. 

charlesphoto posted:

Well, like everything in computer audio it’s probably a moving target, and it may vary from system to system. What I will say is that the combo of Roon/Tidal has greatly improved my love of music - it’s often too easy to get swept up in minute sound changes to the detriment of discovering new music and seamlessly playing it (even from one’s own collection). And the Roon interface blows the Naim app and others out of the water. Had a Kraurock evening last night and discovered and “added” lots of great stuff to my collection. Now, of course if Tidal goes bust then I don’t any of it, but at least I’ll know what’s out there... it’s like having a record store that’s a lending library in your living room! And the Roon interface with Tidal is the best part and I’m sure will only be getting better. I think most limitations are on the Tidal end - they really do need a new UI designer. 

Eventually I’ll get a low power NUC as a dedicated server but for now it does well on my Mac Pro. I turned off audio analyzing, volume leveling, etc. and even with upsampling have it only using about 10% of my cores (important since it’s my photo biz work machine). No idea why people are bothering spending the $ they are on the Naim Core, when one could buy a much better dedicated server and have plenty of $ left over for a lifetime subscription to Roon. 

have you compared your nuc server with the uniticore?    For myself i prefer a bit the sound of my downloads or ripped cds on my unitserve vs Tidal.   There are lots of topics on that, but the costly nas/servers like melco are among the best.  Some here had before mac mini tweaked servers and prefer now the uniticore or melco.

I still personally buy cds that i can’t find on qobuz or hdtracks and appreciate the easy ripping on my unitserve. I don’t like computers.... So the idea of using a computer to have roon is not for me.

 

I’m currently using a purpose built older fanless Vortexbox that’s always done the job. It can rip but I prefer using Dbpoweramp on my desktop. Will get a NUC when some recent invoices start rolling in. Yes, I would say that my locally stored music sounds better than the same album coming from Tidal. But like I said there’s always trade offs and for me it’s about new music discovery vs ultimate sound quality (which I’m not even close to at my fincancial level). What i’m loving about Roon is the ability to play to the microRendu, our Sonos in the kitchen and bathroom, from my Mac Pro to the UQ, airplay to the Muso in the bedroom, and soon set up a Roon bridge on my son’s pc in his room (though at nine he’s like “why not just play from youtube?”). If you have a machine to run the core on and a recent tablet for the remote (12.9 iPad pro for me) it’s well worth the trial. I didn’t think much of it a few years back when I first trialed but it’s night and day from then. 

Thing is you can just buy a NUC and put Roon’s ROCK on it and that’s that, for less than $500. No need to monkey with windows etc. I already have a linear power supply on the Vortexbox so will use that to power the NUC. Otherwise looking at 3-5x that for a dedicated audiophile server. 

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