network streaming tweaks

SimonPeterArnold posted:

I'm in this camp and so are all the incredibly clever research and tech people I work with. 

"Bits are bits; Ethernet transports error-checked IP packets from one point to another. There’s no such thing as a good bit or bad bit or “better-sounding” bit — you either receive the packet of data (the FLAC stream in this case), or you don’t."

It's a few years since I designed real time services over data networks, but when I were lad jitter and lattency had a fairly major impact. 

But bits are an abstraction of reality - a mathematical invention - a number system of base 2.

What you actually have are changes in voltage level travelling along a metal wire. These changes have finite rise times, and the time between successive voltage changes is not exactly the same. The bits is bits brigade seem to want to ignore fundamental physics.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

I'm in this camp and so are all the incredibly clever research and tech people I work with. 

"Bits are bits; Ethernet transports error-checked IP packets from one point to another. There’s no such thing as a good bit or bad bit or “better-sounding” bit — you either receive the packet of data (the FLAC stream in this case), or you don’t."

if you are so clever and open minded, try first a good lan in a 1k /meter range , just to experiment. You will be surprised !

DAVEJ - Agree did you demo or still have the Chord Music : )

Like I said earlier the box brigade, when Naim release ethernet will be all over it with reasons why and forget all said here, even bolder to claim no other cable is worthy.

First time round with Naim i was box mad, much later I turned attention to stands, but would vehemently deny anything other than Naim cables - even those they were in comparison to other speaker and interconnect options very cheap. Closest I came was for a few months a micromega fronted my Naim system, after much trialing I ended up with a Chord solid.

I always said if I started again (did not intend to) was to keep an open mind and test myself and decide. I disliked the Naim sheep mentality.

Also to ensure I extract the maximum by optimising the setup.

Also recall the old Mana flame war days, so many denying any benefit, then the Fraim came and all the sheep just followed and even bought the matching Chips.

SimonPeterArnold posted:

I'm in this camp and so are all the incredibly clever research and tech people I work with. 

"Bits are bits; Ethernet transports error-checked IP packets from one point to another. There’s no such thing as a good bit or bad bit or “better-sounding” bit — you either receive the packet of data (the FLAC stream in this case), or you don’t."

Yes bits are bits, but they're carried along by an analogue signal in two pieces of wire (by using Manchester encoding) .

Along with the analogue carrier for the digital data there is, inevitably, comes analogue noise (variance in the amplitude domain) and jitter (variance in the time domain).  These effects can both then get electromagnetically (and, in the case of jitter mathematically) coupled into the sensitive analogue electronics of your system.

The bits may be bits, but that far from the complete story of digital transmission in a mixed mode system such as a DAC!

French Rooster posted:
SimonPeterArnold posted:

I'm in this camp and so are all the incredibly clever research and tech people I work with. 

"Bits are bits; Ethernet transports error-checked IP packets from one point to another. There’s no such thing as a good bit or bad bit or “better-sounding” bit — you either receive the packet of data (the FLAC stream in this case), or you don’t."

if you are so clever and open minded, try first a good lan in a 1k /meter range , just to experiment. You will be surprised !

2nd that advice, actually I'll advance on that to physically demo in your system to rebuke it.

We've been around this merry-go-round before as I led the bits-is-bits march a few weeks ago on another thread.

I think to save the discussion from going on again, we had agreed 1) we're talking about ground noise on the cable inducing noise in the analog domain, which is certainly possible and 2) the bits-is-bits brigade really needs to do a listening a/b test before continuing with an otherwise theoretical textbook argument.  

Hope that helps this from being further rehashed !

Huge posted:
SimonPeterArnold posted:

I'm in this camp and so are all the incredibly clever research and tech people I work with. 

"Bits are bits; Ethernet transports error-checked IP packets from one point to another. There’s no such thing as a good bit or bad bit or “better-sounding” bit — you either receive the packet of data (the FLAC stream in this case), or you don’t."

Yes bits are bits, but they're carried along by an analogue signal in two pieces of wire (by using Manchester encoding) .

Along with the analogue carrier for the digital data there is, inevitably, comes analogue noise (variance in the amplitude domain) and jitter (variance in the time domain).  These effects can both then get electromagnetically (and, in the case of jitter mathematically) coupled into the sensitive analogue electronics of your system.

The bits may be bits, but that far from the complete story of digital transmission in a mixed mode system such as a DAC!

you are perhaps the first who could explain technically that bits are not only bits and lan cable is not only lan cable( in hifi). I should memorize your response. Thanks for the clarification.

Huge posted:

Indigo:                £4200 streamer, £1200 Ethernet cable.....    OK, if that works for you.....  But interesting priorities!

Chord Music:     £4200 streamer, £3800 Ethernet cable.....    

Yeah it looks that way, but maybe box count trumps all? I've gone from 7 boxes to a Nova. I don't know of a better one box streamer system that does all that the Nova does but If one appears I will check it out. I have a full fat Powerline on my Nova and am considering trying a better ethernet cable as I would like to max it out but I would need some serious rethinking to contemplate spending >£100. It's not the money, it's thought of the sickening mark up and the inevitable ridiculous packaging at that level. It's also not wife acceptance - my beloved would allow me as many boxes as I want. That number happens to be one.

1200 lan cable to maximize 4200 one box integrated amp / streamer, why not?  it is certainly a better sounding option than buying a one shelf fraim for around the same money.

But 3800 lan for the nova, i would say it is ridiculous. If one box system is the wish and money is not a problem at all, i would better bought the best one box integrated / streamer on the market : dagostino c stream integrated ( 50k), jeff rowland daemon or mark levinson latest integrated...

French Rooster posted:
SimonPeterArnold posted:

I'm in this camp and so are all the incredibly clever research and tech people I work with. 

"Bits are bits; Ethernet transports error-checked IP packets from one point to another. There’s no such thing as a good bit or bad bit or “better-sounding” bit — you either receive the packet of data (the FLAC stream in this case), or you don’t."

if you are so clever and open minded, try first a good lan in a 1k /meter range , just to experiment. You will be surprised !

No way on earth I am spending 1k on cable either. I will try out some cat7 network cables to see if I can hear any difference between my standard cat5 but it will be considerably less than that. 

Obsydian posted:

DAVEJ - Agree did you demo or still have the Chord Music : )

Like I said earlier the box brigade, when Naim release ethernet will be all over it with reasons why and forget all said here, even bolder to claim no other cable is worthy.

First time round with Naim i was box mad, much later I turned attention to stands, but would vehemently deny anything other than Naim cables - even those they were in comparison to other speaker and interconnect options very cheap. Closest I came was for a few months a micromega fronted my Naim system, after much trialing I ended up with a Chord solid.

I always said if I started again (did not intend to) was to keep an open mind and test myself and decide. I disliked the Naim sheep mentality.

Also to ensure I extract the maximum by optimising the setup.

Also recall the old Mana flame war days, so many denying any benefit, then the Fraim came and all the sheep just followed and even bought the matching Chips.

A few years ago now, I went to have a listen to see if there was anything in all the nonsense that was being claimed by some about cables making a difference and found that they did, so I've kept an open mind ever since.

That was a Chord Solstice i/c (subsequently re-named Sarum), which got upgraded and traded-in to become Super Sarum. Naturally, when Music first appeared, I was keen to hear them, vowing that there was no way I'd spend "that sort of money". Heard them, compared them, bought them.

SimonPeterArnold posted:
French Rooster posted:
SimonPeterArnold posted:

I'm in this camp and so are all the incredibly clever research and tech people I work with. 

"Bits are bits; Ethernet transports error-checked IP packets from one point to another. There’s no such thing as a good bit or bad bit or “better-sounding” bit — you either receive the packet of data (the FLAC stream in this case), or you don’t."

if you are so clever and open minded, try first a good lan in a 1k /meter range , just to experiment. You will be surprised !

No way on earth I am spending 1k on cable either. I will try out some cat7 network cables to see if I can hear any difference between my standard cat5 but it will be considerably less than that. 

try is not spend....borrow from a dealer or buy and return to experiment....or stay with your skepticism....

DAVEJ - Trade in : )  now you have me seriously thinking about it.

MR ROOSTER - Sorry I am a Naim sheep ; ) although someone with a streaming system I never ever heard of suggested the Chord Indigo (but Naim have no streaming cable so that doesn't count). Oh he is in the process of going chord music but his system is circa £50k.

The way I see it all these add ons are working to outtanding effect, but in reality they are just showing how damn good the Nova is (app excluded).

I have unplugged my USB I regard that as inferior now, as the Indigo is resolving so much unheard detail, but most of all its so musical.

Obsydian posted:

DAVEJ - Trade in : )  now you have me seriously thinking about it.

MR ROOSTER - Sorry I am a Naim sheep ; ) although someone with a streaming system I never ever heard of suggested the Chord Indigo (but Naim have no streaming cable so that doesn't count). Oh he is in the process of going chord music but his system is circa £50k.

The way I see it all these add ons are working to outtanding effect, but in reality they are just showing how damn good the Nova is (app excluded).

I have unplugged my USB I regard that as inferior now, as the Indigo is resolving so much unheard detail, but most of all its so musical.

i have perhaps not been clear:  i think that your choice for chord indigo ethernet is good, if you want to maximize your nova and not add boxes. You have, with the fiber bridge and cisco and indigo, a full optimized nova.   

I just pointed that chord music would be too much.....

You said you unplugged your usb, so how you listen to hirez now? 

Obsydian,

certainly the chord music lan would add some improvement for the music, but maybe for around 10k you can have a better amp/preamp / dac or streamer combo than nova.  You can in that logic buy a 5 k power cord which will improve also the nova....

The gryphon diablo 150 is a one box integrated /dac amp and would certainly smoke the nova with a chord music ethernet, because the amp, preamp section is a lot more advanced.  For waf factor, it is also a beautiful box.

Anyway just my feelings.....    You can also try effectively the chord music lan, but will it really improve marginally on your nova, i doubt a bit.  On a 552/500/nds, the difference should be more clear.  But i have not tried, so why not, if you can return such a product...

Obsydian posted:
 

I really feel the fibre bridge has as crazy articles suggest ditched all the noise. Cannot stress how much people should try this at sub £100 it is one of them try and decide.

 

So what are people using for the fibre bridge? I think I saw TP-Link stuff mentioned in an older thread (or was it this!)

For <£100 I'd be prepared to give it a shot.

Huge posted:
SimonPeterArnold posted:

I'm in this camp and so are all the incredibly clever research and tech people I work with. 

"Bits are bits; Ethernet transports error-checked IP packets from one point to another. There’s no such thing as a good bit or bad bit or “better-sounding” bit — you either receive the packet of data (the FLAC stream in this case), or you don’t."

Yes bits are bits, but they're carried along by an analogue signal in two pieces of wire (by using Manchester encoding) .

Along with the analogue carrier for the digital data there is, inevitably, comes analogue noise (variance in the amplitude domain) and jitter (variance in the time domain).  These effects can both then get electromagnetically (and, in the case of jitter mathematically) coupled into the sensitive analogue electronics of your system.

The bits may be bits, but that far from the complete story of digital transmission in a mixed mode system such as a DAC!

Huge, thank you for an informative post. I think I sort guessed these things without having the technical knowledge. Simon in S makes the case for the Cisco switches such as the 2960 on the grounds of much better timing and lower noise.

I assume Obsydian’s new and used 2960s differ in these terms. I would have hoped the degree of deviation for a properly refurbished unit would not have been significant enough to hear though!

One thing: how do the various cables help beyond the switch? Is there a logical reason why one cable is better than another? In what way can a cable reduce signal degradation. 

Phil

Filipe posted:
<snip>

One thing: how do the various cables help beyond the switch? Is there a logical reason why one cable is better than another? In what way can a cable reduce signal degradation. 

Phil

Hi Phil,

Although I'm convinced of the technical reasons for differences due to the cable connected to the streamer, I'm much less certain of technical reasons for differences from points in the network system before the switch if the switch is screened and earthed.

I don't have enough confidence in any theories to make any suggestions here; so no explanation!

Sorry,

E

(However, I think it better to admit lack of knowledge than try to bluff!)

French Rooster posted:
Obsydian posted:

DAVEJ - Trade in : )  now you have me seriously thinking about it.

MR ROOSTER - Sorry I am a Naim sheep ; ) although someone with a streaming system I never ever heard of suggested the Chord Indigo (but Naim have no streaming cable so that doesn't count). Oh he is in the process of going chord music but his system is circa £50k.

The way I see it all these add ons are working to outtanding effect, but in reality they are just showing how damn good the Nova is (app excluded).

I have unplugged my USB I regard that as inferior now, as the Indigo is resolving so much unheard detail, but most of all its so musical.

i have perhaps not been clear:  i think that your choice for chord indigo ethernet is good, if you want to maximize your nova and not add boxes. You have, with the fiber bridge and cisco and indigo, a full optimized nova.   

I just pointed that chord music would be too much.....

You said you unplugged your usb, so how you listen to hirez now? 

No agree Chord Music is crazy with a Nova, BUT the Indigo has got me VERY interested, though I will try and avoid as I think I would buy it.

All Tidal now, no HiRes USB (Just bought another 128Gb). But you my friend are you using the Vodka from your Serve to NDS, that must be sweet.

james n posted:

Is the Nova a stop gap to something else. £3800 for a Chord Music streaming cable seems a tad excessive just to listen to Tidal ?

Just curious.

I've considered this elsewhere but naturally the actual upgrades for the Nova are limited.

Pretty much:

1 - External power amp (speakers/speaker cable too).

2 - Powerline

3 - 'Streaming cable' or other good quality interconnects

4 - Equipment support

5 - Room!

The beauty of most of these are that they would be transferable if the Nova was replaced, so while I might in hindsight have preferred one of the classic higher end streamers, they or their replacements may be what I'd aspire to, but the other elements may be cheaper in terms of outlay but could be used if/when the Nova was upgraded.

Not sure I'd pay £3,800 for the Chord Music but I think I might stretch to several hundred pounds or more if a 'streaming cable' brought worthwhile improvements - I don't see it that much differently to adding external PSUs etc (when they were a bit more affordable!)

Alley Cat posted:
Obsydian posted:
 

I really feel the fibre bridge has as crazy articles suggest ditched all the noise. Cannot stress how much people should try this at sub £100 it is one of them try and decide.

 

So what are people using for the fibre bridge? I think I saw TP-Link stuff mentioned in an older thread (or was it this!)

For <£100 I'd be prepared to give it a shot.

Good man join the bonkers club when Mr Rooster, Chrissy and CHARLESPHOTO advised I thought for a punt with Prime I could test and return.

I would advise the fibre bridge first, if you like that try the ifi and that cannot be returned.

You need 2 x ifi power supplies 5V, TP link 

Two of these

TP-Link MC110CS 10/100Mbps Single-Mode Media Converter https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0...cp_apa_12XHAb2SQ21DT

One of these

Tripp Lite Duplex Multimode 62.5/125 Fiber Patch Cable (SC/SC), 3.05 m (N306-010) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0...cp_apa_K3XHAbJ5Z2576

Obsydian posted:
French Rooster posted:
Obsydian posted:

DAVEJ - Trade in : )  now you have me seriously thinking about it.

MR ROOSTER - Sorry I am a Naim sheep ; ) although someone with a streaming system I never ever heard of suggested the Chord Indigo (but Naim have no streaming cable so that doesn't count). Oh he is in the process of going chord music but his system is circa £50k.

The way I see it all these add ons are working to outtanding effect, but in reality they are just showing how damn good the Nova is (app excluded).

I have unplugged my USB I regard that as inferior now, as the Indigo is resolving so much unheard detail, but most of all its so musical.

i have perhaps not been clear:  i think that your choice for chord indigo ethernet is good, if you want to maximize your nova and not add boxes. You have, with the fiber bridge and cisco and indigo, a full optimized nova.   

I just pointed that chord music would be too much.....

You said you unplugged your usb, so how you listen to hirez now? 

No agree Chord Music is crazy with a Nova, BUT the Indigo has got me VERY interested, though I will try and avoid as I think I would buy it.

All Tidal now, no HiRes USB (Just bought another 128Gb). But you my friend are you using the Vodka from your Serve to NDS, that must be sweet.

yes i use now the vodka with the serve, also between the cisco and first tp link. The meicord opal between the router and cisco, and the wonderful audioquest diamond (0,75m) between the last tp link and the nds.  My tp links are on hdplex and uptone linear ps....

the audioquest diamond is different from the vodka, more natural, refined and fluent, a big step .  The advantage is the possibility of 0,75 m vs the minimum 1m for the indigo....

Just one thought : if you stream hirez from nas, the sound will be better than tidal streaming....

Obsydian posted:

DAVEJ - Trade in : )  now you have me seriously thinking about it.

MR ROOSTER - Sorry I am a Naim sheep ; ) although someone with a streaming system I never ever heard of suggested the Chord Indigo (but Naim have no streaming cable so that doesn't count). Oh he is in the process of going chord music but his system is circa £50k.

The way I see it all these add ons are working to outtanding effect, but in reality they are just showing how damn good the Nova is (app excluded).

I have unplugged my USB I regard that as inferior now, as the Indigo is resolving so much unheard detail, but most of all its so musical.

Chord Indigo aray Ethernet cable is excellent! That is all I will say !  Glad you found that out too!

Gazza posted:

I have just put a Vodka between Cisco switch and Nova, is there a burn in period? It is replacing a Melco, much less expensive....not really hearing an difference, glad it’s own loan.

 

 

GAZZA - Assuming it's demo loan that's what i did, if so it should be burned it.

I personally I did not like the Vodka, but I did hear a change. If it's no good for you it's no good and stick to the Melco.

Obsydian posted:
Gazza posted:

I have just put a Vodka between Cisco switch and Nova, is there a burn in period? It is replacing a Melco, much less expensive....not really hearing an difference, glad it’s own loan.

 

 

GAZZA - Assuming it's demo loan that's what i did, if so it should be burned it.

I personally I did not like the Vodka, but I did hear a change. If it's no good for you it's no good and stick to the Melco.

I had the AQ vodka streaming Ethernet cable and the Chord Indigo aray killed it. Significantly better ! 

Well I will persevere as this is new addition for dealer in terms of cables and has only just arrived. But having tried a true audio signal cable from my Core to Nova which was a Spdif digital which was very special.....I need to check their ethernet offering out as well. Plus I need to get the wife to give a second pair of ears.

Gazza posted:

Well I will persevere as this is new addition for dealer in terms of cables and has only just arrived. But having tried a true audio signal cable from my Core to Nova which was a Spdif digital which was very special.....I need to check their ethernet offering out as well. Plus I need to get the wife to give a second pair of ears.

GAZZA - the Vodka compared to my Chord C Stream was very noticeable, but for me not to my liking. But kudos for trying.

Oh on the WAF front she loved it, totally singing along saying so much more life like, until I told her the cost.

Gazza posted:

I have just put a Vodka between Cisco switch and Nova, is there a burn in period? It is replacing a Melco, much less expensive....not really hearing an difference, glad it’s own loan.

 

 

everybody don’t like the vodka, more to drink perhaps.  i heard there is 100 hours burn also.

French Rooster posted:
Gazza posted:

I have just put a Vodka between Cisco switch and Nova, is there a burn in period? It is replacing a Melco, much less expensive....not really hearing an difference, glad it’s own loan.

 

 

everybody don’t like the vodka, more to drink perhaps.  i heard there is 100 hours burn also.

I though vodka was more flammable than that!

Indigo burning in well it seems to just get better, bass is tightening up, more detail - but most important of all I can't wait to listen to it and every opportunity I put in on. So listening had trebled.

Sadly artwork freezes are more frequent, wonder if Naim will blame the Chord cable.

ALLEYCAT - did you try the fibre bridge?

GAZZA - Any update on the Vodka?

Update on the Vodka is that I had to get the girls in this afternoon to make sure I was not imagining things.....

The Vodka at first sounded brighter, but after a few days.... it is still different to my Melco link from Cisco to Nova. But time and time again A-B-A, or any combination, my current Melco sounds better to the girls.To me it’s very marginal......but the Melco is much cheaper. I listened to a True audio signal co. Equivalent to Naim dc1, was Impressed, so now waiting for a set of their ethernet cables.

i am burning too the vodka, maybe 40 hours now and comparing from time to time with the meicord opal( between router and switch):  the vodka has more body and a little better bass, but a bit heavy....the opal is still a bit nicer and lively, more freedom of music and better balance.   I will wait a bit more for vodka burning, but feel it won’t really change anymore...and i will certainly sell it.

GAZZA - Yes be good to hear other brands compaisons. I read up about melco but opted for Supra early on.

For sure the A-B-A should be clear and likeable or not worth it.

FRENCH ROOSTER - Yes the break in is surprising for a cable that most say makes no difference. The bass increase and quality is pretty amazing.

Gosh I even started listening to Antonio Forcione, with the Indigo you really hear every little nuance and can admire his musical skill.

I'm running a Meicord Opal myself with the UQ in the office. Very musical and full sound. Upstairs using a Ghent Audio JSSG cable. Very neutral and solidly built with the option of a 45 degree connecter which is great for my microrendu that's using a hard USPCB connection directly into the rear of the V1. For $80 (or less) it would interesting for those of you with bigger wallets to compare it to AQ or Opal or Chord offerings. I've had Cinnamon cables in the system and found them detailed but too polite and anemic compared to Opal, Ghent, or just plain Amazon Teragrand. 

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