New Kudos Titan 707

Our man in Leicester is an enthusiastic Kudos dealer; I imagine he will have a pair a little before, or as soon as they're commercially available. He will be well placed to comment here on their performance with the various levels of Naim kit.  I wonder if he still has a pair of 135's in his demo armoury

analogmusic posted:

I haven't heard Kudos so can't comment much on it, but honestly Lindsay the price puts me off.

Dynaudio, B&W, ATC make their own drivers.  

 

I've no idea whether I'd like the Kudos, and am unlikely to hear them, but good speakers, especially if you want full bass done well, tend to cost a lot...  On researching very recently For insurance purposes I learnt that the nearest equivalent to my speakers currently produced cost £15k new, so I'm already in/above that ballpark, so I might be tempted to listen if I had to replace mine.

As for the list, PMC, Tannoy and  KEF also make their own drivers, while some manufacturers work with OEM drive unit manufacturers like Scanspeak to create drivers suited to their specific requirements, in effect no different from making their own.

Innocent, I have heard quite a few speakers by now since I started my Naim journey back in 2010.

I would politely disagree, speakers do can do good bass do not need to cost a lot of money.

Proac studio 140 MK2 can deliver very deep bass and is well priced.

As Derek of Kudos has said "it is the tweeter that makes or breaks a speaker"

analogmusic posted:

Bodger, how is the pairing of NAP 500 and 802 D3?

 

Good to sometimes hear both sides of the Kudos story.

Now Mangomonkey did say he might let his Kudos S20 go....... 

ANALOGMUSIC,

This thread is now much more fun than it was.

The 808 are not cheap and the only other comparably priced speaker I tried around this time was the Magico S3. The Magico's were better than the 808. By some way.

I really wanted to like the 808 and was a bit (positively) biased once I got to THAT shop. I found the 808 fast but shouty. Bass was not the real deal for me. I thought they needed a second bass driver.

The 802 D3 did it all for me. So I bought them. I refused to hear the 800 D3. Bit of a step up in price at this point. I did hear the old 800 D2 side by side with the 802 D3. D2 still good, D3 better by a margin.  

You pays your money and takes your choice. There is quite a price range for the speakers being bandied around above. Apples and oranges going on here.

I don't agree the tweeter makes the speaker either. You need it all to work and seamlessly too. Kudos is waaay too much tweeter. The 4 hour dem was probably 3 too long.

Dave

 

Bodger posted:

The 808 are not cheap and the only other comparably priced speaker I tried around this time was the Magico S3. The Magico's were better than the 808. By some way.

I really wanted to like the 808 and was a bit (positively) biased once I got to THAT shop. I found the 808 fast but shouty. Bass was not the real deal for me. I thought they needed a second bass driver.

The 802 D3 did it all for me. So I bought them. I refused to hear the 800 D3. Bit of a step up in price at this point. I did hear the old 800 D2 side by side with the 802 D3. D2 still good, D3 better by a margin.  

You pays your money and takes your choice. There is quite a price range for the speakers being bandied around above. Apples and oranges going on here. 

Apples and oranges

I think this is down to how very far from perfection speakers actually are, with each sounding so very different to one another, displaying an often quite distinct sonic character even when you get into these  price levels, which are quite elevated  if not yet stratospheric.

Personally I wasn't impressed by the 802D2, and thought the PMCs I was also auditioning sounded notably better, but clearly to others the B&W gives what they want. Such is the spice of life: some people prefer apples, others prefer oranges!

It was no different 40 years ago when I did a mammoth audition of what in today's money would be about £2k-£3k, when some simply sounded nasty to me, others OK-ish with only three out of tge initial dozen worth more extended evaluation, and one clear winner. In comparison other gear in any given bracket tend to have much more subtle differences. 

Meanwhile there are many who would argue that the midrange makes or breaks a soeaker more than the tweeter - witness the ATC SM75-150 driver, and any speaker using it.

analogmusic posted:

I haven't heard Kudos so can't comment much on it, but honestly Lindsay the price puts me off.

Dynaudio, B&W, ATC make their own drivers. 

Proac D20 R is around 2800 GBP, which is a quite a bit less than the 4400 GBP S20.

 

 

To be fair, if you haven't heard Kudos you're not in a position to comment at all ��

Dave J posted:

I heard about these a while back and was very excited at the time by the prospect of an "808-lite" that fits into a smaller listening environment.  I love what the big Titans do but, sadly, can't fit them into my listening room so I'm really looking forward to hearing them and would certainly be in the market for a pair.

Never heard any Kudos speakers, but just by looking at the design, I would imagine they would be more room friendly than the 808s.

BTW, they look Great, a Diamond in the Corner!

Allante93!

Dave J posted:
analogmusic posted:

I haven't heard Kudos so can't comment much on it, but honestly Lindsay the price puts me off.

Dynaudio, B&W, ATC make their own drivers. 

Proac D20 R is around 2800 GBP, which is a quite a bit less than the 4400 GBP S20.

 

 

To be fair, if you haven't heard Kudos you're not in a position to comment at all ��

To be fair, nobody has heard the 707's so I would suggest everyman and his dog can comment on this gossip thread.

analogmusic posted:

I haven't heard Kudos so can't comment much on it, but honestly Lindsay the price puts me off.

Dynaudio, B&W, ATC make their own drivers. 

Proac D20 R is around 2800 GBP, which is a quite a bit less than the 4400 GBP S20.

 

 

And the Q Acoustics Concept 40 is 1100GBP,  but I'm not sure what that proves,  other than compact floorstanders are available at different price points.

Ok, now an attempt to avoid this descending into 'my bass is bigger than your bass'  (of coutse absolute anathema to people who don't appreciate the bottom octave or two and are scared when it hits them): The great difficulty in achieving deep bass uncurtailed is doing so in a manner that is well controlled, fast, tight or whatever wotds mean it responds and stops responding accurately with the musical signal, and doing it well demands skill in design, often requires quite complex and large cabinets, and so is inherently more expensive to design and produce than speakers that happily roll off before they get down to the low bass. And they all sound different. And this is where we all have to go and listen to see what does it for us.

If someone is happy without full bass, then great, you can live in the knowledge that you can save a lot of money on speakers. And if someone thinks a £50 or any other value speaker they have heard is fantastic then again, good on you - and maybe best not hearing anything that might be better. And if you've stumbled across a gem that you think will satisfy the musical desires of people talking about more expensive speakers, all means let them know about It, after all it could save them money. But what seems strange is suggesting that more costly speakers are pointless or just too expensive or not worth it. 

I have no idea if I'd like the Titan 707 or any other Titan, having never heard or even investigated them, but if I was in the market for speakers and could afford them I'd at least have a glance at their specs and any reviews any comments from people who have heard them, to provide an initial idea as to whether they might fit my desire for speakers and be worth the effort of hearing, and I'd be comparing them with things like the comparably priced PMCs which I know do hit the right sort of balance for me.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ok, now an attempt to avoid this descending into 'my bass is bigger than your bass' ...........  I have no idea if I'd like the Titan 707 or any other Titan, having never heard or even investigated them, but if I was in the market for speakers and could afford them I'd at least have a glance at their specs and any reviews any comments from people who have heard them, to provide an initial idea as to whether they might fit my desire for speakers and be worth the effort of hearing, and I'd be comparing them with things like thecomparably priced PMCs which I know do hit the right sort of balance for me.

Not Always, but more often than not, there is a direct relationship, between price & quality! 

That's why we, The Forum, fork out thousands of dollars for upgrades, that the Norm can't detect! 

But Remember, we aren't the Norm! 

Allante93! 

 

Innocent Bystander posted:
analogmusic posted:

I haven't heard Kudos so can't comment much on it, but honestly Lindsay the price puts me off.

Dynaudio, B&W, ATC make their own drivers.  

 

 

As for the list, PMC, Tannoy and  KEF also make their own drivers, while some manufacturers work with OEM drive unit manufacturers like Scanspeak to create drivers suited to their specific requirements, in effect no different from making their own.

I'm pretty sure  PMC doesn't make their midrange drivers, I think  they use ATC drivers, as for the tweeter, that's a Seas or Scanspeak unit , they are one in the same now anyway.

Quality control does suffer when you're not making  your own drivers, so I don't exactly agree with that statement that it makes no difference.

 

sunbeamgls posted:
 

I really wanted to like the 808 and was a bit (positively) biased once I got to THAT shop. I found the 808 fast but shouty. Bass was not the real deal for me. I thought they needed a second bass driver.

Dave

 

It already has 2 bass drivers.

Yea, I would tend to agree with your observation, they do seem to be a little on the hot side.

sunbeamgls posted:
 

I really wanted to like the 808 and was a bit (positively) biased once I got to THAT shop. I found the 808 fast but shouty. Bass was not the real deal for me. I thought they needed a second bass driver.

Dave

 

It already has 2 bass drivers.

Err, it has one. A mid and a tweeterrr.

heihei posted:

I've sent 2 emails to Kudos asking if there is any scope to build Titans for use in an active Naim system but no reply, not even a "No - no intention". Disappointing.

Why don't you give Peter a call at Cymbiosis? I'm sure he'll be able to find out for you, if he doesn't know already.

heihei posted:

I've sent 2 emails to Kudos asking if there is any scope to build Titans for use in an active Naim system but no reply, not even a "No - no intention". Disappointing.

I have heard them active in 3 different configurations, plus passive with Naim electronics.

Active with Linn Exakt and Devialet systems and passive with Naim have all been enjoyable. But active with Naim wasn't what I was hoping for in terms of performance. I think it was because of the Behringer digital crossover / DAC that was in use.  It is a shame there is no SNAXO for these nor the Sopras.

You can search audiophile musings naim kudos and you'll find some stuff to read. Swap Naim for Linn or Devialet in the search for more.

 

 

Bodger posted:
sunbeamgls posted:
 

I really wanted to like the 808 and was a bit (positively) biased once I got to THAT shop. I found the 808 fast but shouty. Bass was not the real deal for me. I thought they needed a second bass driver.

Dave

 

It already has 2 bass drivers.

Err, it has one. A mid and a tweeterrr.

Do a tiny bit more research and you will find it has 2 bass drivers per side.

badlands posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
analogmusic posted:

I haven't heard Kudos so can't comment much on it, but honestly Lindsay the price puts me off.

Dynaudio, B&W, ATC make their own drivers.  

 

 

As for the list, PMC, Tannoy and  KEF also make their own drivers, while some manufacturers work with OEM drive unit manufacturers like Scanspeak to create drivers suited to their specific requirements, in effect no different from making their own.

I'm pretty sure  PMC doesn't make their midrange drivers, I think  they use ATC drivers, as for the tweeter, that's a Seas or Scanspeak unit , they are one in the same now anyway.

Quality control does suffer when you're not making  your own drivers, so I don't exactly agree with that statement that it makes no difference.

 

Of course it makes a difference. However, losing control of quality is not inevitable, that's just about process and contractual agreements, absolutely nothing to do with design nor sonic results.  

Speaker design is about the complete solution and ensuring production output is consistent with the intended design. Building your own drive units is no indicator of a good result, just as building your own cabinets is no indicator of a good result.

A good result is down to knowledge, skills, design, manufacturing, consistency of quality, installation, longevity and problem resolution. Who does each of those steps is largely irrelevant, as long as it is all done in the way that was intended.

If anyone has a problem with that, best stop driving that BMW with its electronics made by Bosch and tyres produced by Pirelli etc.

badlands posted:
sunbeamgls posted:
 

I really wanted to like the 808 and was a bit (positively) biased once I got to THAT shop. I found the 808 fast but shouty. Bass was not the real deal for me. I thought they needed a second bass driver.

Dave

 

It already has 2 bass drivers.

Yea, I would tend to agree with your observation, they do seem to be a little on the hot side.

Just to be clear that observation was a quoted extract from Dave's post, not from me.

As for the observation itsself, I seem to recal that the dealer in question did have a pre-prod demo session at one point, but then the tweeter was changed before production started. (but happy to be corrected if my memory is failing me). So the observation may depend on which version was auditioned: pre-prod vs prod.

badlands posted:
Innocent Bystander posted:
analogmusic posted:

I haven't heard Kudos so can't comment much on it, but honestly Lindsay the price puts me off.

Dynaudio, B&W, ATC make their own drivers.  

 

 

As for the list, PMC, Tannoy and  KEF also make their own drivers, while some manufacturers work with OEM drive unit manufacturers like Scanspeak to create drivers suited to their specific requirements, in effect no different from making their own.

I'm pretty sure  PMC doesn't make their midrange drivers, I think  they use ATC drivers, as for the tweeter, that's a Seas or Scanspeak unit , they are one in the same now anyway.

Quality control does suffer when you're not making  your own drivers, so I don't exactly agree with that statement that it makes no difference.

 

Whilst PMC have used the glorius ATC in the past don't any longer, making their own units, and whilst some drivers are sourced from other manufacturers (Seas for a tweeter and Volt for the big bass drivers in the largest models, they are finished/modified by PMC.

As for QC, that it does suffer is a bald statement to make. The only fact is that QC is out of the direct control of the finished product manufacturer, so might be at greater risk, though that depends on the manufacturers concerned and any checks the purchasing manufacturer may make. Just as Naim buys components from other manufacturers.

Innocentbystander

bass response of Proac studio 140 Mk 2 : 25 HZ (around 2000 GBP)

Bass response of Kudos S20 : 30 HZ (4400 GBP)

Good bass response is no longer a real luxury anymore and is available for reasonable prices. Whatever S20 does for the 4400 GBP asking price, it can't be only because of deep bass.

In fact I remember a thread by HungryHalibut, do modern speakers have too much bass...  

If you read the review of the Dynaudio X12 on Stereophile, John Atkinson ends the review (at the end on the measurements page) by saying "I am not surprised. For $1200/pair, a well-engineered speaker like this makes it hard to justify spending more on a bookshelf speaker unless you can afford one of the cost-no-object models"

As for B&W 800 series, well I was told me many times by this forum, that B&W and Naim don't mix well together, but it is nice to see that quite a few forum members own 802D and Naim. I used to have 805S and still miss them....

After many years of experiments, I would rather much spend 20K GBP split between source and preamp, and not at all that keen spending that kind of money on a speaker, not unless we are talking about sonus faber stradivari, Dynaudio confidence range or B&W 800 series. But still source and preamp first (and speaker last with any remaining cash). 

20 K will buy you a fully loaded LP12, NDS/555DR, Linn Klimax katalyst DS or the latest Chord Blu2 with Dave DAC.

20K will also buy NAC 552, I know that is a lot more interesting purchase to me than any 20 K GBP speaker. or 10 K GBP speaker.

And then there is the Superlumina full loom.....

 

 

I don't agree the tweeter makes the speaker either. You need it all to work and seamlessly too. Kudos is waaay too much tweeter. The 4 hour dem was probably 3 too long.

Dave

 

It wasn't my idea, it is something Kudos say.

I also completely disagree. It is the quality of drivers, the integration of those drivers and crossover, and then of course larger amounts of quality bass than the competition can provide. It also helps that if the speakers aren't ugly.

Since when did people pay extra money for soft dome tweeters?  (Not unless they are made of Diamond or Beryllium or other exotic materials? or unless it is a world famous Dynaudio soft dome Esotar tweeter used by Sonus Faber in some of their legendary speakers like the the Minima and by Dynaudio in their (new) contour/confidence range and above)

B&W 805D3 has the same tweeter as 802D2, but as you go up B&W range, you pay more for more bass.

badlands posted:

I'm pretty sure  PMC doesn't make their midrange drivers, I think  they use ATC drivers, as for the tweeter, that's a Seas or Scanspeak unit , they are one in the same now anyway.

I think it's unlikely ATC make PMC drivers... they look very dissimilar and appear to use quite different construction methods.. further PMC and ATC are primary competitors selling to the domestic and professional markets....

analogmusic posted:

 

After many years of experiments, I would rather much spend 20K GBP split between source and preamp, and not at all that keen spending that kind of money on a speaker, not unless we are talking about sonus faber stradivari, Dynaudio confidence range or B&W 800 series. But still source and preamp first (and speaker last with any remaining cash). 

20 K will buy you a fully loaded LP12, NDS/555DR, Linn Klimax katalyst DS or the latest Chord Blu2 with Dave DAC.

20K will also buy NAC 552, I know that is a lot more interesting purchase to me than any 20 K GBP speaker. or 10 K GBP speaker.

And then there is the Superlumina full loom.....

 

I think the premise here is that the rest of the system is sorted out and you're in the market for a speaker at this level. I'm sure the 707 will be a cracker but like all speakers, won't appeal to everyone. Anyone in the market for these would no doubt be comparing them to number of models around this price level both at a dealer and at home before making a decision. 

I must admit I feel paying a significant amount  of money for a passive/passive crossover speaker is not a great idea... a passive speaker is flawed because of its crossover - and this is going to ultimately compromise performance, and given where the crossover will typically operate this is the area we are most sensitive to.  If I was going to really invest in larger scale audio replay I think it would need to be active speakers, or active crossover powered speakers. Can the Kudos speaker be actively crossover driven?

S

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