Radio 3 lossless

As we all know, R3 is trialing Radio 3 using FLAC lossless.  We can currently listen to the Proms better on our PCs using Firefox (?!)  In the rating they ask you to complete, they ask if they should make it permanent (?!!!!).

Of course they should make it permanent!  What a silly question!  Is there an alternative now that it's possible?

Now that 70+ Mb broadband is becoming more and more available they should be thinking soon of 24 bit 96KHz

Dear Auntie.  Please keep your foot on the accelerator.

Original Post
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

And for those of us in the U.K.  who can still only get 4Mb broadband (and in my village that is one of the top speeds) then we will need to carry on relying BBC Radio 3 on FM.

I find Tidal 16/44 FLAC to be very reliable on our 4.5Mb rural broadband (although it will probably drop out if my wife puts BBC iPlayer TV on.) Does the BBC FLAC stream use more bandwidth than this for some reason?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

And for those of us in the U.K.  who can still only get 4Mb broadband (and in my village that is one of the top speeds) then we will need to carry on relying BBC Radio 3 on FM.

Well said that man and I get 8 on a good day with a fair wind and seem to be subsidising all these chaps getting three trillion stonkabites and who still seem to be moaning about dropouts!

ChrisSU posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

And for those of us in the U.K.  who can still only get 4Mb broadband (and in my village that is one of the top speeds) then we will need to carry on relying BBC Radio 3 on FM.

I find Tidal 16/44 FLAC to be very reliable on our 4.5Mb rural broadband (although it will probably drop out if my wife puts BBC iPlayer TV on.) Does the BBC FLAC stream use more bandwidth than this for some reason?

They recommend at least 2Mbps.  So in theory, most people who have any kind of broadband connection at all should be ok.  

Though, as I'm sure you're aware, if anyone would know whether in practise 4Mb is enough, it's SiS.

I've been enjoying R3 lately, much of it is good background listening while working, so I hope they move ahead with wider lossless provision.

4Mb would be fine if that was all that was going on the line... given the average family use of broadband and other connected devices I usually find 4Mb totally inadequate for streaming FLAC .. and remember it is 4 Mb down and about 412kb up... and the TCP acknowledges all need to share that tiny upstream... and delays here can cause lost data or buffer under runs... this is where the bottleneck is on ADSL.

A report in today's Guardian   ..........  Britain's  average speed rank's it 31st in the world       A new report has found that across the UK the average broadband download speed is 16.5Mbps,     ............  UK is behind 17 EU countries although France & Italy are worse.  ............  Germany (18.8Mbps), Spain (19.6Mbps), Sweden (40Mbps) and Hungary (23Mbps).

I guess you would be happy to at least get the 16.5Mbps average Simon.     

I long for 8Mbps, on a very very good day I can get about 4.2 if I force a sync at sun rise but goes unstable after dark and resyncs down to about 3.8.

However SuffolkBetterBroadband has given most of my village government funded  provisional superfast enablement for the end of the year, with installation of a new mini cab at the bottom of my lane, so I might just then get around 40Mbps which would be superb.. but I am not holding my breath, as info from SCC is sketchy at best.

As far as backhaul congestion at peak school kid social media time, this will depend on ISP... BT for example does not, for the most part, have a congested / over subscribed back haul... other ISPs may vary... with broadband you tend to get what you pay for...

BTW as far as stats I'd be wary of the report that the Guardian and others are running with... it is I feel misleading, I prefer to look at the Akamai surveys... the last report I saw the UK was 20th globally, with one of the highest fixed line super-fast(30Mbps +)  availabilities in Europe at 91%, however seemingly many of us choose to buy cheaper slower ADSL... 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

And for those of us in the U.K.  who can still only get 4Mb broadband (and in my village that is one of the top speeds) then we will need to carry on relying BBC Radio 3 on FM.

Simon, how does it compare to Radio 3 on FM? Can it be accessed through a Naim streamer? On my NDS I can see BBC Radio 3 HD which is quoted at 339kbps - is this the 'lossless' service described here? It doesn't sound as good as Radio 3 FM through the NAT01.

Clive B posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

And for those of us in the U.K.  who can still only get 4Mb broadband (and in my village that is one of the top speeds) then we will need to carry on relying BBC Radio 3 on FM.

Simon, how does it compare to Radio 3 on FM? Can it be accessed through a Naim streamer? On my NDS I can see BBC Radio 3 HD which is quoted at 339kbps - is this the 'lossless' service described here? It doesn't sound as good as Radio 3 FM through the NAT01.

The R3 FLAC trial is only available on a computer through the Firefox browser.

Clive B posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

And for those of us in the U.K.  who can still only get 4Mb broadband (and in my village that is one of the top speeds) then we will need to carry on relying BBC Radio 3 on FM.

Simon, how does it compare to Radio 3 on FM? Can it be accessed through a Naim streamer? On my NDS I can see BBC Radio 3 HD which is quoted at 339kbps - is this the 'lossless' service described here? It doesn't sound as good as Radio 3 FM through the NAT01.

Clive, as Chris says above the BBC R3 service on FLAC needs a computer with web browser... the service on the Naim streamers is the regular lossy service.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
Clive B posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

And for those of us in the U.K.  who can still only get 4Mb broadband (and in my village that is one of the top speeds) then we will need to carry on relying BBC Radio 3 on FM.

Simon, how does it compare to Radio 3 on FM? Can it be accessed through a Naim streamer? On my NDS I can see BBC Radio 3 HD which is quoted at 339kbps - is this the 'lossless' service described here? It doesn't sound as good as Radio 3 FM through the NAT01.

Clive, as Chris says above the BBC R3 service on FLAC needs a computer with web browser... the service on the Naim streamers is the regular lossy service.

In that case I can't see how this is meant to be a hifi solution, unless the BBC expects us all to purchase separate audio quality DACs. 

Clive B posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
Clive B posted:
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

And for those of us in the U.K.  who can still only get 4Mb broadband (and in my village that is one of the top speeds) then we will need to carry on relying BBC Radio 3 on FM.

Simon, how does it compare to Radio 3 on FM? Can it be accessed through a Naim streamer? On my NDS I can see BBC Radio 3 HD which is quoted at 339kbps - is this the 'lossless' service described here? It doesn't sound as good as Radio 3 FM through the NAT01.

Clive, as Chris says above the BBC R3 service on FLAC needs a computer with web browser... the service on the Naim streamers is the regular lossy service.

In that case I can't see how this is meant to be a hifi solution, unless the BBC expects us all to purchase separate audio quality DACs. 

It's only a trial at this stage, so presumably will be more widely available when/if it becomes a regular BBC service.

ChrisSU posted:

The R3 FLAC trial is only available on a computer through the Firefox browser.

You can now stream the BBC FLAC trial directly to  a Naim streamer such as the NDS using a combination of plugins on Logitech Media Server running on a NAS drive, PC, or mac.  You will need the following plugins:
Triode's BBC iplayer for FLAC stream and 
Philippe's UnP Bridge

The NDS shows as a player in the iPeng or the squeezebox app and can be controlled from that. 

There is no need for Squeezebox hardware. 

R.K posted:
ChrisSU posted:

The R3 FLAC trial is only available on a computer through the Firefox browser.

You can now stream the BBC FLAC trial directly to  a Naim streamer such as the NDS using a combination of plugins on Logitech Media Server running on a NAS drive, PC, or mac.  You will need the following plugins:
Triode's BBC iplayer for FLAC stream and 
Philippe's UnP Bridge

The NDS shows as a player in the iPeng or the squeezebox app and can be controlled from that. 

There is no need for Squeezebox hardware. 

Sounds like a bit of a faff, but I guess it's probably worth it in the absence of a proprietary solution, which I guess Naim might not be able to offer to us 'legacy' users. 

Oops!  It seems that in starting this post, I have really set the cat among the pigeons!  We have here a full scale broadband rant.  I don't blame you all: I'm obviously one of the lucky ones!

No, my thought process is that it seems that this is the way things must go; after all think of Tidal, which is integral to Naim streamers.

Once started, there must be no backtracking.

 

Beachcomber posted:

2Meg?  I dream of getting that fast.  1 meg here.  On a good day.  If it isn't raining.  

The BB here actually improves markedly when it rains - probably due to better conductivity along the creaking infrastructure.  It's when it starts to dry out that it gets really noisy and BB drops every few minutes.

Sounds like a bit of a faff, but I guess it's probably worth it in the absence of a proprietary solution, which I guess Naim might not be able to offer to us 'legacy' users. 
 

Took a couple of hours to set up but now works flawlessly. Was easier (and quicker) to set up on a Mac but now working fine on a Synology NAS. 

ChrisSU posted:
R.K posted:
ChrisSU posted:

The R3 FLAC trial is only available on a computer through the Firefox browser.

You can now stream the BBC FLAC trial directly to  a Naim streamer such as the NDS using a combination of plugins on Logitech Media Server running on a NAS drive, PC, or mac.  You will need the following plugins:
Triode's BBC iplayer for FLAC stream and 
Philippe's UnP Bridge

The NDS shows as a player in the iPeng or the squeezebox app and can be controlled from that. 

There is no need for Squeezebox hardware. 

Sounds like a bit of a faff, but I guess it's probably worth it in the absence of a proprietary solution, which I guess Naim might not be able to offer to us 'legacy' users. 

Agree and only really viable if you're  a IT geek and have decent broadband. I'm just pulling the HLS stream via the NDS this evening but have to confess that I still prefer live broadcasts via the NAT01 - or perhaps it a bit of the old Olive sound via these older ears.

Ravenswood10 posted:

Agree and only really viable if you're  a IT geek and have decent broadband. I'm just pulling the HLS stream via the NDS this evening but have to confess that I still prefer live broadcasts via the NAT01 - or perhaps it a bit of the old Olive sound via these older ears.

That's really what I wanted to know. I think the BBC needs to know this too before they even consider switching off the FM transmitters.

The NAT01 really is (was) a gem in the Naim Audio catalogue.

ChrisSU posted:
Sounds like a bit of a faff, but I guess it's probably worth it in the absence of a proprietary solution, which I guess Naim might not be able to offer to us 'legacy' users. 

Why should you have to consider a product that's still in the catalogue to be 'legacy'?

As I have mentioned in a couple of previous threads, a simple solution that doesn't involve apps and software is to use Firefox on a PC and a USB DAC (the one I have is the £169 Dragonfly Red) and connect the output to an analogue input on your preamp or streamer. This completely bypasses the PC's own audio circuits that may or may not be good quality in the Naim HiFi sense. I find the quality of the R3 FLAC to be really excellent and much better than the FM receiver in my office Superuniti, but I haven't compared it with a proper Naim FM tuner.

The Dragonfly DACs are plug and play, so you don't need drivers or anything. The red is the better of the two but the black costs about half the price of the red at about £89. They are very low power consumption. You can even use them on an iPad (but not to get the BBC FLAC trial unfortunately).

best

David

Clive B posted:
ChrisSU posted:
Sounds like a bit of a faff, but I guess it's probably worth it in the absence of a proprietary solution, which I guess Naim might not be able to offer to us 'legacy' users. 

Why should you have to consider a product that's still in the catalogue to be 'legacy'?

You'll have to ask Naim that question!

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

And for those of us in the U.K.  who can still only get 4Mb broadband (and in my village that is one of the top speeds) then we will need to carry on relying BBC Radio 3 on FM.

Simon

Is LTE available in the UK for domestic broadband?

In a rural location in the Czech Republic broadband has always been a struggle for us. We're way too far from the exchange for a wired connection and the only alternative up to now was wireless broadband but that was wildly unreliable - it could be 40mb/s one day and zero for 10 hours the next. Vodafone have started offering home internet using LTE - it's limited to 8mb/s download and 4 up - the unlimited service available on mobile phone can be over 100mb/s download. What's good about it for us is that the service is completely reliable. Using just the aerial on the modem/router we get about 5mb/s but it delivers the full 8 (and more!) if I step out on to the balcony with it. There is an option to fit an external aerial and this would no doubt be beneficial in our location but, for our use, what we have is fine for business and pleasure. BBC FLAC works fine!

I read somewhere that the Czech Republic is one of the leading countries with the roll-out of LTE technology. It's claimed that 98% of the population now can access it and 95% of the area of the country has coverage.

Chris

Hi Chris, it is, and coverage of 4G is growing a pace, but is no where near the coverage levels you state for the Czech Rep. ... however because its spectrum contended its data throughout is usually metered and so is not really a very affordable replacement for fixed line broadband... not in the UK at least.

What I would say 4G/LTE is by design variable and contended, so performance will fluctuate on environmental and user load conditions... and so is not ideal for all applications, but certainly useful for many.

So in the Czech rep is LTE flat rate or metered, and how does it cost compared to fixed line broadband?

 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 

So in the Czech rep is LTE flat rate or metered, and how does it cost compared to fixed line broadband?

 

Simon

The monthly allowance is 60Gb but it's planned to make it unlimited in the next 12 months or so as more of the infrastructure is rolled-out and the capacity increased. It's the equivalent of about £12 a month, which is similar to their fixed-line service price.

They are very much aiming it at people with second homes in the country, which have been with no service what so ever until now. The level of second home ownership here is amongst the highest in Europe and so it's a very significant market. O2 even provide a battery-driven modem/router for people with a "chata" in remote locations with no electricity.

Chris

Thanks, btw I didn't respond to your earlier point, yes ADSL uses longer lines back to exchanges, but VDSL or Superfast uses little cabinets at the side of roads to convert fibre into VDSL feeds ... these will be quite local/short distance. Some of the cabinets can be quite small.

Realistically in the U.K. if you have a very isolated property / remote farm well away from a hamlet which may be or scheduled to be VDSL enabled  etc it's either potentially very expensive dedicated fibre, LTE/3G and some isolated locations do have this, Satellite which can get very contended, is metered and has high latency, or long line ADSL... or nothing.... 

MusicRoom posted:

As we all know, R3 is trialing Radio 3 using FLAC lossless.  We can currently listen to the Proms better on our PCs using Firefox (?!)  In the rating they ask you to complete, they ask if they should make it permanent (?!!!!).

Of course they should make it permanent!  What a silly question!  Is there an alternative now that it's possible?

Now that 70+ Mb broadband is becoming more and more available they should be thinking soon of 24 bit 96KHz

Dear Auntie.  Please keep your foot on the accelerator.

I believe Minimserver is now able to support the R3 FLAC trial too. I'm not at home to try it, but could be worth a go. 

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