Radio Paradise flac streaming

Hello! Hello! etc.

I've just noticed that the updated RP app now supports flac streaming. I have this app on various i-Devices, and an Apple TV, connected to an SU via optical. Obviously the 320kbps stream is native to Naim streamers via iRadio.

Can anyone advise on the easiest way of getting the RP flac files onto my SU.

There's an exotic muffin in it for the winner.

For the losers, endless torment punctuated by spontaneity hour where you all go first. 

Original Post

Wow! Thanks for the info. I've got RP on my AppleTV as well. There is a lossless option now.

I guess for the time being it will need to be routed around using optical out of the TV, or optical out from a computer.

I hope Naim will update the app to include lossless RP streaming at some point.

yes - I'm playing it currently via Apple TV and it sounds pretty good. I guess it will take some sort of streaming update via firmware for Naim stuff to do it natively.

Does Apple TV do lossless output or does it upsample to 48, I don't recall? I've a vague memory of Apple TVs upsampling from 44 to 48.

Either way, Englebert Humperdink has never sounded so awful. 

 

Interesting - the BBC Radio 3 FLAC trial sounded very good, and the Minimserver guys very kindly did an add-on that enabled it to be sent from a NAS to a streamer over UPnP. It would be great if they could be persuaded to do the same for R. Paradise. The new Naim streamers should be able to get it over AirPlay, and possibly Chromecast, I’ll have a play with that tomorrow. 

Thinking back to the radio 3 trial, wasn't it the case that you just needed to add the stream URL to a text file for minim to find it?

The RP chap (the DJ type, not some well spoken bloke) seems to think that a FLAC feed can't be a stream in the usual iradio kind of way. According to a recent forum post, he reckons it's inherent to the FLAC format that streams are file-by-file rather than a genuine stream. So to work as a continuous stream in a radio-like way, as opposed to something more like a Spotify playlist, a software workaround on the playing device is needed.

The latter part could be tricky for Naim gear. Or maybe not. But the point is he seems to think it's not a straightforward matter of providing a stream URL.

Gavin B posted:

I can't see anything mentioning this on the RP website

You need to hunt a bit,  its easier to find if you search "Radio Paradise FLAC"

Bottom line is as follows in a post from Bill on 13 Oct 17       "We'll be doing FLAC on our new web player also (coming soon), and — as of today — we support FLAC playback via Alexis devices.       I'll see about coming up with a simple Linux app that will work on Pi-based players (or any other Linux platform that allows third-party apps), but that probably won't be until next year sometime".

 

CSI_Basel posted:

It would be great to have this for the Superuniti!!

Agreed, as a SU owner myself. Realistically, though, I can't see that Naim are going to prioritise that - it would seem their cup runneth over with conflicting demands for software developments (Roon for example). I suspect that there will also be a focus over coming months on shaking out the bugs in the code for the new Uniti range.

I'm reluctantly coming round to the view that one has to accept that the SU is a last generation product, and either upgrade to the new Uniti range, which is where the development work will go, or supplement it with an external streaming solution (Melco, RPi etc.). To be fair, the original Uniti range was architectured and launched in 2009, and if you look at equivalent tech from this period (i.e. Sonos), you'll find a similar situation pertains. I happen to have quite a bit of first generation Sonos kit, and have to accept that (for example) it will never support anything other than CD quality streaming, nor offer Alexa support etc.

 

 

Duncan Mann posted:
CSI_Basel posted:

It would be great to have this for the Superuniti!!

Agreed, as a SU owner myself. Realistically, though, I can't see that Naim are going to prioritise that - it would seem their cup runneth over with conflicting demands for software developments (Roon for example). I suspect that there will also be a focus over coming months on shaking out the bugs in the code for the new Uniti range.

I'm reluctantly coming round to the view that one has to accept that the SU is a last generation product, and either upgrade to the new Uniti range, which is where the development work will go, or supplement it with an external streaming solution (Melco, RPi etc.). To be fair, the original Uniti range was architectured and launched in 2009, and if you look at equivalent tech from this period (i.e. Sonos), you'll find a similar situation pertains. I happen to have quite a bit of first generation Sonos kit, and have to accept that (for example) it will never support anything other than CD quality streaming, nor offer Alexa support etc.

 

 

I can see your point, but a Sonos doesn't cost as much as a SuperUniti or Uniti 2. And also until about 3 months ago, the old Uniti range was still being sold as the only naim all-in-one range option (Obviously you could pre-order the new range but it was not available in the shops) And the 172, 272, NDX and ND5 have not been replaced yet. So I don't think Naim should just abandon the old streamers... At least not for a while yet. There would be a lot of dissatisfied customers.

Gavin B posted:

I can't see anything mentioning this on the RP website

There are iOS, OSX and Android apps for Radio Paradise, and all of them can be set to play FLAC. I don't think the option is there on their website, though. Airplay to my Atom works with it, and certainly sounds better than the regular iRadio stream. 

Dave***t posted:

Thinking back to the radio 3 trial, wasn't it the case that you just needed to add the stream URL to a text file for minim to find it?

The RP chap (the DJ type, not some well spoken bloke) seems to think that a FLAC feed can't be a stream in the usual iradio kind of way. According to a recent forum post, he reckons it's inherent to the FLAC format that streams are file-by-file rather than a genuine stream. So to work as a continuous stream in a radio-like way, as opposed to something more like a Spotify playlist, a software workaround on the playing device is needed.

The latter part could be tricky for Naim gear. Or maybe not. But the point is he seems to think it's not a straightforward matter of providing a stream URL.

No, out of date info, as of the beginning of the year the FLAC Standard was enhanced by Xiph to support streaming by allowing FLAC to be streamed in a DASH compliant manner using ISOBMFF encapsulation. So since Jaunauary 2017 FLAC can be provided as a DASH stream, just like the AAC DASH streams the BBC use for the ‘hidef’ lossy streams.

The change to Minimserver for the R3 trial was to provide the URL and also instruct Minimstreamer on how to extract the FLAC data from the stream... I guess Naim will need to do something similar.

 

Duncan Mann posted:
CSI_Basel posted:

It would be great to have this for the Superuniti!!

Agreed, as a SU owner myself. Realistically, though, I can't see that Naim are going to prioritise that - it would seem their cup runneth over with conflicting demands for software developments (Roon for example). I suspect that there will also be a focus over coming months on shaking out the bugs in the code for the new Uniti range.

I'm reluctantly coming round to the view that one has to accept that the SU is a last generation product, and either upgrade to the new Uniti range, which is where the development work will go, or supplement it with an external streaming solution (Melco, RPi etc.). To be fair, the original Uniti range was architectured and launched in 2009, and if you look at equivalent tech from this period (i.e. Sonos), you'll find a similar situation pertains. I happen to have quite a bit of first generation Sonos kit, and have to accept that (for example) it will never support anything other than CD quality streaming, nor offer Alexa support etc.

You will have a few options, depending on your view on the use of 'workarounds'! If your SU has Bluetooth, that should work, although I suspect it may not give the best sound quality. Airplay via Apple TV or Airport Extreme/optical would be an option. You could presumably connect an iPhone into the front USB port, which is a facility that the old streamers have, but the new ones have lost.

Is the streaming URL for the flac RP format known? Maybe you simply could add it to the naim custom radio list? (I had to look for the correct naim web site for this radio managing service. But I had tried this with one URL some years ago.  So you can configure the radio channels yourself.)

gert posted:

Is the streaming URL for the flac RP format known? Maybe you simply could add it to the naim custom radio list? (I had to look for the correct naim web site for this radio managing service. But I had tried this with one URL some years ago.  So you can configure the radio channels yourself.)

I won't pretend to understand the technicalities, but the short answer is no, the RP FLAC stream can't be added as a URL. To quote Bill Goldsmith of RP, "FLAC streaming is file playback rather than a true stream" so I guess it isn't going to integrate into streamer iRadio inputs so easily.

Chris, not correct, as of Jan this year there is a standardised way of streaming continuous FLAC using an optimised streaming container and URL... please see my earlier post.  http://forums.naimaudio.com/to...49#72103499254681249

So the short answer is yes, a URL can be used, but the streamer needs to understand the DASH compliant FLAC media type.... Minimserver now is, but I suspect Naim streamers don’t yet support this media type.. but they do support DASH compliant AAC, so FLAC should be relative easy to add.

Of course regular FLAC can also be streamed as a ‘file’ and so where there is a known start to the file, streaming is fine.. as with local UPnP and Tidal.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Chris, not correct, as of Jan this year there is a standardised way of streaming continuous FLAC using an optimised streaming container and URL... please see my earlier post.  http://forums.naimaudio.com/to...49#72103499254681249

So the short answer is yes, a URL can be used, but the streamer needs to understand the DASH compliant FLAC media type.... Minimserver now is, but I suspect Naim streamers don’t yet support this media type.. but they do support DASH compliant AAC, so FLAC should be relative easy to add.

Of course regular FLAC can also be streamed as a ‘file’ and so where there is a known start to the file, streaming is fine.. as with local UPnP and Tidal.

Simon, I was half expecting to be corrected on this as I typed....and more than half expecting it do come from you! I mentioned it anyway simply because Bill from RP had said it - maybe he worked out his FLAC implementation before these changes became available?

Having listened to the RP FLAC stream a little more now, I must say that although it's quite a bit better than the 320 stream, it's not a patch on the R3 trial via Minimserver. Maybe a native implementation from Naim would close the gap? 

Hi Chris... I hope I didn’t come across as arrogant.... yes I am not sure why your quote is being made if current, as Xiph added to the FLAC standard in Jan, which in the world of IT is some time back... interesting on your comments on quality... and perhaps this down to quality of the source media system and the Beeb place a lot of focus on that... Also I think I remember the Beeb R3 trial was 48/16

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi Chris... I hope I didn’t come across as arrogant.... yes I am not sure why your quote is being made if current, as Xiph added to the FLAC standard in Jan, which in the world of IT is some time back... interesting on your comments on quality... and perhaps this down to quality of the source media system and the Beeb place a lot of focus on that... Also I think I remember the Beeb R3 trial was 48/16

No offence taken!! I won't pretend to understand the technicalities involved - but yes, if the FLAC standard changed in Jan, maybe that is what RP have implemented - I don't know? 

To be fair to RP, so far I have only managed to send the stream to a Naim streamer over Airplay or Bluetooth from an iPhone, so using 2 wireless legs, which may not be optimal. Since then I've also tried it on my Sony ZX2 (using the RP Android app) with Shure IEMs, and that sounds pretty good.

If there is a URL, then presumably one could use the same approach I used for the BBC FLAC trial, which was to use Firefox on my windows laptop and then plug a USB DAC into a USB port and move the signal into my Superuniti as an analogue signal. I used the Dragonfly Red which is highly effective and cost-effective too, although I appreciate that using the DAC in the Superuniti would be better.

best

David

David Hendon posted:

If there is a URL, then presumably one could use the same approach I used for the BBC FLAC trial, which was to use Firefox on my windows laptop and then plug a USB DAC into a USB port and move the signal into my Superuniti as an analogue signal. I used the Dragonfly Red which is highly effective and cost-effective too, although I appreciate that using the DAC in the Superuniti would be better.

David, there is no real need for a URL if you use an external device as RP have apps for iOS, Android, OSX, and probably Windows as well. Native support for Naim streamers/servers, on the other hand, would be nice. 

Phil Harris posted:
Gavin B posted:

Any chance of a comment from Naim? @Phil Harris? Could you at least tell us Naim are looking into this?

We're aware that RP launched a FLAC stream and I believe it has already been raised with vTuner (who actually maintain the indexing) regarding getting it onto the lists...

Phil

...and after having checked into where we are with this it seems that the RP FLAC stream isn't actually a stream - it's a rolling playlist that gets continually updated with each track being played as an individual entity so it's not possible to simply add it as a normal stream URL ... as this is yet another different (and unique/proprietry) method of implementation of 'HiDef' streaming then it is unlikely that we will incorporate a one off codebase to cover this.

Phil

Phil, am I right to infer that it would be something you'd be willing/able to incorporate, if the stream were the kind of DASH compliant stream which Simon refers to above?

Ie if RP did it right, using the updated method available since earlier this year, all would be well?

Dave***t posted:

Phil, am I right to infer that it would be something you'd be willing/able to incorporate, if the stream were the kind of DASH compliant stream which Simon refers to above?

Ie if RP did it right, using the updated method available since earlier this year, all would be well?

Hi Dave,

I obviously can't make corporate decisions but I would presume that if a streaming provider "did it right" using an agreed and standard then there should be no reason why it wouldn't be looked into and a decision taken on whether to support it and on what devices.

As it is, RP have confirmed that their FLAC service is something that they have had to modify into their apps rather than it being a true stream...

http://www.radioparadise.com/m...0&foo=1509006652

...stating that "All FLAC streaming is file playback rather than a true stream, so it's a bit complicated. On our apps, we've come up with various tricks to make it happen (without losing the segues & timing that makes RP different than something like Pandora or Spotify). "

Phil

Thanks Phil, that's fair enough.

Yeah, the idiosyncrasy was noted further up the thread. But if there is a new, standard way then it seems maybe just a bit of communication could help. I'm guessing RP just aren't aware of the new standard/haven't figured out how to implement it. Seems unlikely they'd go the way they have, otherwise.

I'll see if I can find an address to drop them an email. Does anyone (SiS?) know a good place to point them to for further info on the new-ish DASH stream format?

Dave, if you go to the RP website they have a forum which the owners contribute to, see Phil’s link above. There is also a ‘contact us’ page. 

As you will see from that thread, in addition to RP apps, you can use Alexa devices, and a Linux/RPi implementation of some sort is in the pipeline, so there are a few options. 

Yes to all. Can stream Qobuz and all the BBC play-again sites too. I used to use a Squeezebox Touch into the NDS but that’s now redundant with the UPnP plugin. 

i did attach the link but not sure if that’s allowed 🤔

To any who manage/have managed to get this working in a Naim context, would you mind setting out *in basic terms* how it all works? 

I think there are probably quite a few people who'd be interested in trying it out, but who might be put off by the technical details (eg the previously linked forum discussion was 150-odd pages long!).

I'd have a go myself, but don't have time right now, and was concerned by a post I saw somewhere that the LMS stops the NAS being able to sleep.

Hi Dave

I can only speak from my experience from installing this on my system. 

A plugin has been developed to give LMS UPnP functions.

Once installed, LMS now works as a UPnP server and can be run on a mac, pc, or Synology NAS drive.  It has a number of plugins which can be enabled allowing it to supply Qobuz, Tidal, Radio Paradise, BBC play again etc to a Naim streamer (NDS etc).

This needs to be controlled with an app such as iPeng which runs on an iPad or iPhone. 

Once it's up and running it seems flawless, controlling the NDS in a similar manner to the Naim App. 

I have not noticed the NAS being unable to sleep.

Best wishes, Ray. 

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