Rock music sounds bland

rmatosev posted:

 You don't have to be an expert to apply this trick, You just need a cartridge scale. Put the tracking force dial on zero and adjust the tracking force by turning the dial until you reach the desired value on a digital scale.

I am afraid your problem lies somewhere else. As you climb on the audiophile ladder, you reach a higher level of resolution and transparency, but you can lose some emotion. And yes, bad pressings are ruthlessly revealed.

I also wonder if it is not better resolving power showing up the weakness in the recording. I have found similar, when certian rock tracks (Lenny Kravitz, Are you going my way, track=Sister; the use of wah wah being a good example) had lots of exciting distortion, only to disappear with an upgrade. Sometimes the benefits of the upgrade then dont really improve that specific recording until one or more changes get things into balance again and you can better hear the reality.

LarsDK posted:

Would really take James N advice, pmc are 87db and 6ohm so not easy load and 200 not most powerful amp.

i noticed same with esp complex rock when undergunning on power vs speaker, and with more power and easy speaker its all punchy.

easy to test by demo of 250.2..

br Lars

How on earth do sensitivity (which is pretty average) and a rated impedance which happens to be that for which most amps are rated, imply anything about how difficult a load the speakers are? What matters are things like the minimum impedance and perhaps cabinet damping of cone movement.

 

Terrific input everyone - not sure how to respond to it all! Tonight I have compared Foo fighters Sonic Highways on cd and vinyl. Both sound flat, but I did notice the cd was a lot brighter - not particularly in a good way but slightly more involving than the vinyl. I’m using standard Naim interconnects on the CD player so I think tomorrow I will Hook up the RP10 with a  Chord RCA to Din lead I have for my AV amp and see wether the Blue Heavens are surpressing things. 

I must emphasise that a lot of my vinyl does sound stunning. I got a copy of Paul Young’s No Parlez from a charity shop yesterday and the soundstage is unbelievable -so my system can’t be that off can it? 

Good shout on Steve Wilson J.N - love his stuff so will definitely check that out.

Thanks again all  

 

Gasilver posted:

Please help me- I feel I’m going a little mad and need some reassurance/advice!

Im now a proud owner of an RP10 with Apheta  hooked up to a Rega Aria phonostage, Nac 202, Nap 200 through PMC OB1’s. I upgraded from my Planar 2 after auditioning the RP10 with a similar system at my dealers’.

My dealer set up the RP10 at home and checked over the rest of my system. I’m generally blown away with the dynamics and musicality of most of my record collection- clearly more involving than my bare CDX2.

I didn’t listen to any “heavy stuff” either at the audition or when the dealer set the system up. I was really expecting that Led Zep, Foo Fighters, Kings of Leon, kasabian etc would pull me in and excite me - this has always been a problem I have found when listening to the CDX2 in my system.

However I am left feeling disappointed with these albums on the RP10- they sound so bland  and I can’t quite believe I’m getting such contrasting results  I understand the importance of getting good vinyl recordings/pressings but I don’t think this is the reason for my problems. 

On the assumption that my source and speakers are good enough to achieve the results I am after, do you think an upgrade on the pre and/ or the power amps will do the trick? Does anyone recognise this problem and has anyone been through this anxiety and come out the other end happy? Any thoughts gratefully received. 

Hi,

You mention that listening to Led Zep, Foo Fighters, etc, on your system does not excite you. That probably mean you have attended rock concerts or heard rock music on a system that performed to your expectations.  Remember what speakers provide that kind of sound?  IMO, if you want to be moved by loud hard rock, forget about skinny speakers with tiny 5-6 inches drivers and go for cubic inches and 10+ inches woofers.

Get yourself an audition of some JBLs. About 3 months ago, I picked up a nice pair of JBL 4311, and was shocked at just how good these are on Linn/Naim gear. JBLs sometimes aren't considered to be "audiophile" enough, whatever that is. All I know, is that JBLs make music sound live. I presently have a pair of 4312SE on loan as my main speakers, and they are a very large step up from the 4311 both in refinement and slam. The dynamics and transparency of these new generation JBLs are incredible.

The thing about JBL, is that they make no apologies for their cabinet dimensions; they just build the proper cabinet for the drivers they require. JBL understands that there is no replacement for displacement, so they tend to use nice big bass drivers. Twelve inches of JBL love. You just can't get the same quality of effortless bass with a 6" or 8" driver. But that translates into wife trouble in a lot of cases.

Not so in my case. My wife says "I like the short squatty look of the JBLs because that's the way speakers looked when I was growing up". Then she says "Now that's the way music should sound". This is my wife saying this...

So after selling the 4311s, and using the 4312SE for a couple of weeks, we are now awaiting the imminent arrival of new JBL 4429s. And my gal is fully on board. I'm a lucky dude.

So it will be LP12/52/250/Fraim/4429.

Try JBLs and you may find what you are looking for...

BBM

 

 

Monster posted:

Get yourself an audition of some JBLs. About 3 months ago, I picked up a nice pair of JBL 4311, and was shocked at just how good these are on Linn/Naim gear. JBLs sometimes aren't considered to be "audiophile" enough, whatever that is. All I know, is that JBLs make music sound live. I presently have a pair of 4312SE on loan as my main speakers, and they are a very large step up from the 4311 both in refinement and slam. The dynamics and transparency of these new generation JBLs are incredible.

The thing about JBL, is that they make no apologies for their cabinet dimensions; they just build the proper cabinet for the drivers they require. JBL understands that there is no replacement for displacement, so they tend to use nice big bass drivers. Twelve inches of JBL love. You just can't get the same quality of effortless bass with a 6" or 8" driver. But that translates into wife trouble in a lot of cases.

Not so in my case. My wife says "I like the short squatty look of the JBLs because that's the way speakers looked when I was growing up". Then she says "Now that's the way music should sound". This is my wife saying this...

So after selling the 4311s, and using the 4312SE for a couple of weeks, we are now awaiting the imminent arrival of new JBL 4429s. And my gal is fully on board. I'm a lucky dude.

So it will be LP12/52/250/Fraim/4429.

Try JBLs and you may find what you are looking for...

BBM

 

 

To that I would say PMC and ATC do speakers with 12” and 15”drivers, for those who want their music effortless and accurate - but they do the smaller driver ones because the public at large so often simply don’t have the space (and Naimophiles often regard them as mullets!)

i am torn between love for my PMC EB1s with their 10” drivers, and regret that I didn’t go for the even better MB2SE with 12” and better mid and top. Aside from about £3k difference in cost, a significant consideration was practicality - the EBi is much more manouvrable and easier to accomodate than the MB2, and in the end that swung it. But I will either replace the mid and treble units with some equivalent to the MB2 and convert to active, or i will build an MB2 clone: attemptes to do the latter will decide which.

Back to the OP, the PMC OB1 was a respectable speaker that did bass pretty well, and should not fail to deliver easonably with rock music, despite its smaller bass driver. But I don’t know enough about it to know if the 200 has adequate reserve and/or grip. A demo of, say, a 300  (or something completely different like a Bryston) would soon tell, but it still should not fail to engage even if less than ideal, which is why I wonder about the effect of the room.

Monster posted:

Get yourself an audition of some JBLs. About 3 months ago, I picked up a nice pair of JBL 4311, and was shocked at just how good these are on Linn/Naim gear. JBLs sometimes aren't considered to be "audiophile" enough, whatever that is. All I know, is that JBLs make music sound live. I presently have a pair of 4312SE on loan as my main speakers, and they are a very large step up from the 4311 both in refinement and slam. The dynamics and transparency of these new generation JBLs are incredible.

The thing about JBL, is that they make no apologies for their cabinet dimensions; they just build the proper cabinet for the drivers they require. JBL understands that there is no replacement for displacement, so they tend to use nice big bass drivers. Twelve inches of JBL love. You just can't get the same quality of effortless bass with a 6" or 8" driver. But that translates into wife trouble in a lot of cases.

Not so in my case. My wife says "I like the short squatty look of the JBLs because that's the way speakers looked when I was growing up". Then she says "Now that's the way music should sound". This is my wife saying this...

So after selling the 4311s, and using the 4312SE for a couple of weeks, we are now awaiting the imminent arrival of new JBL 4429s. And my gal is fully on board. I'm a lucky dude.

So it will be LP12/52/250/Fraim/4429.

Try JBLs and you may find what you are looking for...

BBM

 

 

Please, do report your findings when you get those astonishing 4429's!

Gasilver posted:

Please help me- I feel I’m going a little mad and need some reassurance/advice!

Im now a proud owner of an RP10 with Apheta  hooked up to a Rega Aria phonostage, Nac 202, Nap 200 through PMC OB1’s. I upgraded from my Planar 2 after auditioning the RP10 with a similar system at my dealers’.

My dealer set up the RP10 at home and checked over the rest of my system. I’m generally blown away with the dynamics and musicality of most of my record collection- clearly more involving than my bare CDX2.

I didn’t listen to any “heavy stuff” either at the audition or when the dealer set the system up. I was really expecting that Led Zep, Foo Fighters, Kings of Leon, kasabian etc would pull me in and excite me - this has always been a problem I have found when listening to the CDX2 in my system.

However I am left feeling disappointed with these albums on the RP10- they sound so bland  and I can’t quite believe I’m getting such contrasting results  I understand the importance of getting good vinyl recordings/pressings but I don’t think this is the reason for my problems. 

On the assumption that my source and speakers are good enough to achieve the results I am after, do you think an upgrade on the pre and/ or the power amps will do the trick? Does anyone recognise this problem and has anyone been through this anxiety and come out the other end happy? Any thoughts gratefully received. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i recommend you to buy original lps at discogs, you can have near mint or even mint from all over the world.  New remastered lps are very often cut from cds, and the sound is effectively bland.  Or you have true analog remasters from analogue productions and mobile fidelity, but not cheap.

I have 3 of the re-mastered Led Zep albums and none have impressed me when compared to my originals. I bought them in the belief that they would be as good or better than the originals but they aren't, sadly.

I play my vinyl through my LP12 with an Ittok/Troika/Naim chrome bumper pre/hi-cap/power amp set up with Tannoy speakers and have always enjoyed the results until these LZ albums. So much so, I will avoid any new re-mastered stuff unless I can be assured of the recording quality.

As an aside, I remember reading in Melody maker many moons ago that vinyl records were usually cut from several copy tapes made via the master and these copies were used at whichever pressing plant was making the records. So, as these copies were in turn copied, down the line as it were, so as to preserve the master tape, information slowly became lost through transfer. Much like photo-copying a photo-copy.

And for those who perhaps restore old cars for a hobby, using 'approved' reproduction panels from original tooling, dont be too surprised when they dont quite fit here and there. Stamping many thousands of say, front wings from an original stamper will inevitably wear the surface so the pressed panels shall slowly become larger. Same meat, different gravy!

 

 

 

May I suggest that those who are interested in current issue vinyl consider looking at the Steve Hoffman Music forum and Michael Fremer's Analog Planet. (Warning: the Hoffman forums can be both anal and spiky.) These sources significantly complicate the generalisations some are making here and provide a lot of information about sound quality on individual pressings. There are a number of production routes for vinyl between the extremes of 'cut from CD' and all analogue. There are those who will not accept any digital element in the chain but it is possible for LPs mastered from hi-res digital files  to sound very good  - an example being the Rolling Stones Decca/London pressings (in my opinion). However, there is no doubt that all-analogue production with modern equipment can sound stunning - the Beatles mono box perhaps being the outstanding recent example.

One also has to be cautious about other aspects of the reissue market. Sometimes the sound of reissues doesn't match the original albums because there has been remixing as well as remastering. I believe the Led Zeppelin reissues are a case in point, although I have none of those. There may also be problems with the accessibility and deterioration of tapes for albums over 50 years old.

'Cut from CD' is probably mainly the case with marginal companies that are breaching copyright or are exploiting the lapse of copyright in the EU. Beware, for example, of the cheap vinyl jazz reissue labels. More likely than 'cut from CD' is mastered from a digital file but not properly mastered for vinyl. However, it is possible to find good quality vinyl pressings for new music where care has been taken with the mastering and pressing - Calexico and Lambchop are examples in my experience.

" There may also be problems with the accessibility and deterioration of tapes for albums over 50 years old."

Exactly. I once read an article about Eddie Kramer [he did most/all of the Hendrix material amongst others, and he was tasked with re-issuing some Hendrix material from the master tapes. Trouble was, he was very concerned that the tapes could de-laminate and become ruined during the work. He opted to bake the tapes so as to make them supple, etc to withstand running through the machine once again and it worked. Had it not, as he said, the original master would be ruined with no chance of recovery. Once the work was completed, he commented that listening to the 'new' copy was liking listening before behind net curtains which were then removed to reveal notes that were not immediately noticeable before.

There was an interesting interview with him on the BBC 6 music channel some weeks back which might still be available on catch up. Well worth a listen to the man who did so much for not only Hendrix, but Led Zep, etc,etc.

Innocent Bystander posted:
LarsDK posted:

Would really take James N advice, pmc are 87db and 6ohm so not easy load and 200 not most powerful amp.

i noticed same with esp complex rock when undergunning on power vs speaker, and with more power and easy speaker its all punchy.

easy to test by demo of 250.2..

br Lars

How on earth do sensitivity (which is pretty average) and a rated impedance which happens to be that for which most amps are rated, imply anything about how difficult a load the speakers are? What matters are things like the minimum impedance and perhaps cabinet damping of cone movement.

 

Correct.

So big revelation! Swapped out my Nordost Blue Heavens connected to the aux2 RCA’s to a Chord RCA to Din, now connected to the tuner input........ and wow!!!!  Foo Fighters drums have punch and dynamics and Jimmy Pages guitar has real twang and vibrancy. 

I’m going to look into upgrading pre and power, but for the moment this is sounding fantastic and in no way bland!! There is a heaven- but not Nordosts version!! 

Also happy to report to anyone interested that the Led Zep iii remaster is rather good and Sonic Highways on vinyl is superb and smokes the Cd - must tell Michael Fremer!! 

Thnks again for all the input. 

Gasilver posted:

So big revelation! Swapped out my Nordost Blue Heavens connected to the aux2 RCA’s to a Chord RCA to Din, now connected to the tuner input........ and wow!!!!  Foo Fighters drums have punch and dynamics and Jimmy Pages guitar has real twang and vibrancy. 

I’m going to look into upgrading pre and power, but for the moment this is sounding fantastic and in no way bland!! There is a heaven- but not Nordosts version!! 

Also happy to report to anyone interested that the Led Zep iii remaster is rather good and Sonic Highways on vinyl is superb and smokes the Cd - must tell Michael Fremer!! 

Thnks again for all the input. 

Were those Blue Heavens the origanal ones with the flat cables ? Or the later with the usual round section cabling ?

Like you I found the flat ones flat sounding.  They were intended as speaker cables but Nordost used them as interconnects, just wired to RCA connectors, so not optimised really for the job.   Later versions and the Blue Heaven 2 are a lot better.

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