Scottish Independence

I think your third question nails it.

With the previous referendum on independence I very much hoped that the result would be 'no' as I think all parts of the United Kingdom are stronger together than apart.  So I was pleased to see the outcome, though I thought at the time that the main political parties in Westminster mounted a pretty lukewarm campaign.

Given how decisively the electorate in Scotland voted to stay in the EU, I can see the SNP's argument for seeking another referendum on independence, though I think the SNP's motivation is more self-serving.  Sturgeon is deluded though if she thinks the EU will quickly admit Scotland to the EU if Scotland voted for independence. All remaining 27 member states would need to agree to Scotland's admission and I could see, say, Spain saying no for fear of encouraging some its own regions to seek independence.

I can also understand why the PM has apparently ruled out a referendum before the Brexit negotiations are completed. That said, I read in the paper today that the PM had used the argument that it would unfair on the Scottish electorate to be asked to make such a monumental decision without knowledge of the facts - a bit rich given the EU referendum was conducted  in exactly those circumstances! Also, I suspect that the Brexit negotiations could take much longer than 2 years to complete so the PM saying 'let's wait 'till the negotiations are complete' could be a neat way of kicking the issue into the long grass.

Overall, though, I think it bad enough that we are leaving the EU.  If that act served to also break up the Union it would be a tragedy. 

MDS posted:

I think your third question nails it.

With the previous referendum on independence I very much hoped that the result would be 'no' as I think all parts of the United Kingdom are stronger together than apart.  So I was pleased to see the outcome, though I thought at the time that the main political parties in Westminster mounted a pretty lukewarm campaign.

Given how decisively the electorate in Scotland voted to stay in the EU, I can see the SNP's argument for seeking another referendum on independence, though I think the SNP's motivation is more self-serving.  Sturgeon is deluded though if she thinks the EU will quickly admit Scotland to the EU if Scotland voted for independence. All remaining 27 member states would need to agree to Scotland's admission and I could see, say, Spain saying no for fear of encouraging some its own regions to seek independence.

I can also understand why the PM has apparently ruled out a referendum before the Brexit negotiations are completed. That said, I read in the paper today that the PM had used the argument that it would unfair on the Scottish electorate to be asked to make such a monumental decision without knowledge of the facts - a bit rich given the EU referendum was conducted  in exactly those circumstances! Also, I suspect that the Brexit negotiations could take much longer than 2 years to complete so the PM saying 'let's wait 'till the negotiations are complete' could be a neat way of kicking the issue into the long grass.

Overall, though, I think it bad enough that we are leaving the EU.  If that act served to also break up the Union it would be a tragedy. 

More or less mirrors my perception - although I think the PM said "Now is not the time" rather than "Let's wait until the negotiations are complete". To my mind, these two statements are probably political poles apart !!! even though we, the electorate might think they mean more or less the same thing.

Despite my views on the disaster of leaving the EU, I can almost come to terms with that compared to the tragedy the break up of the UK would be ! Probably no more than sentiment and the fact that I spent much of my youth visiting life-long family friends in Motherwell and back-packing in the Western Highlands. But I genuinely believe that the UK (and each of the four Nations) will be stronger together, regardless of whether we are in or out of the EU.

IMHO, Nicola Sturgeon is a one-policy politician.......the break-up of the UK. I don't know why she wants this, I doubt if anybody other than her and Alex Salmon will ever know what is driving them, but she will use any and every means to achieve it.

I have no sympathy and very little respect for Mrs May and I rather suspect she will alienate many people in Scotland and that could well be a tragedy.

Don Atkinson posted:
MDS posted:

I think your third question nails it.

With the previous referendum on independence I very much hoped that the result would be 'no' as I think all parts of the United Kingdom are stronger together than apart.  So I was pleased to see the outcome, though I thought at the time that the main political parties in Westminster mounted a pretty lukewarm campaign.

Given how decisively the electorate in Scotland voted to stay in the EU, I can see the SNP's argument for seeking another referendum on independence, though I think the SNP's motivation is more self-serving.  Sturgeon is deluded though if she thinks the EU will quickly admit Scotland to the EU if Scotland voted for independence. All remaining 27 member states would need to agree to Scotland's admission and I could see, say, Spain saying no for fear of encouraging some its own regions to seek independence.

I can also understand why the PM has apparently ruled out a referendum before the Brexit negotiations are completed. That said, I read in the paper today that the PM had used the argument that it would unfair on the Scottish electorate to be asked to make such a monumental decision without knowledge of the facts - a bit rich given the EU referendum was conducted  in exactly those circumstances! Also, I suspect that the Brexit negotiations could take much longer than 2 years to complete so the PM saying 'let's wait 'till the negotiations are complete' could be a neat way of kicking the issue into the long grass.

Overall, though, I think it bad enough that we are leaving the EU.  If that act served to also break up the Union it would be a tragedy. 

More or less mirrors my perception - although I think the PM said "Now is not the time" rather than "Let's wait until the negotiations are complete". To my mind, these two statements are probably political poles apart !!! even though we, the electorate might think they mean more or less the same thing.

Despite my views on the disaster of leaving the EU, I can almost come to terms with that compared to the tragedy the break up of the UK would be ! Probably no more than sentiment and the fact that I spent much of my youth visiting life-long family friends in Motherwell and back-packing in the Western Highlands. But I genuinely believe that the UK (and each of the four Nations) will be stronger together, regardless of whether we are in or out of the EU.

IMHO, Nicola Sturgeon is a one-policy politician.......the break-up of the UK. I don't know why she wants this, I doubt if anybody other than her and Alex Salmon will ever know what is driving them, but she will use any and every means to achieve it.

I have no sympathy and very little respect for Mrs May and I rather suspect she will alienate many people in Scotland and that could well be a tragedy.

I don't quite see How Mrs May will alienate the Scottish people,  as I understand it,  the majority of Scots voted against independence,  and according to polls in the last few weeks that continues to be the view of the majority.

Nice comment by MDS. Less seriously, IMO you Brits have been very (too?) accommodating to Ms. Sturgeon who I view, forgive me, as a treasonous power hungry little twit. I think somebody could perhaps take her aside and ask her how many planes, ships, and tanks she has. But I should be more mature than that. So on a more serious note, I think if you give into her the slightest bit, Northern Ireland will soon be in play. It's either Great Britain or not, it's your call.

At the time of the last referendum on Scottish independence the economic prospects for an independent Scotland didn't look too good. If anything, the economic climate has worsened in that respect, what with the oil price etc.  

Of course the issue is something of an emotional one too where people vote with their hearts rather than their heads.  I remain of the view that the economic prospects for the UK outside of the EU are worse than in but I feel the scale of risk for Scotland outside the EU (as it would be, at least for some years) and outside the United Kingdom is considerably greater. Would enough Scottish voters take that risk, some just to rid themselves of 'rule' by the Tories in Westminster? I hope not. 

Clay Bingham posted:

Nice comment by MDS. Less seriously, IMO you Brits have been very (too?) accommodating to Ms. Sturgeon who I view, forgive me, as a treasonous power hungry little twit. I think somebody could perhaps take her aside and ask her how many planes, ships, and tanks she has. But I should be more mature than that. So on a more serious note, I think if you give into her the slightest bit, Northern Ireland will soon be in play. It's either Great Britain or not, it's your call.

To be fair, I think the "Great" has been fading since the end of WWII, Clay, but your point still carries weight.  To continue the light-hearted question of Ms Sturgeon, she could currently answer that she has the bulk of UK's nuclear deterrent, given that the Trident subs are based at Faslane.

Don't think she's got the launch codes, though. 

 

Clay Bingham posted:

 Ms. Sturgeon who I view, forgive me, as a treasonous power hungry little twit. 

I have to agree with you.

She maintains she has the interests of the Scottish electorate at heart.....but that is utter nonsense.... She is exactly as you describe ' power hungry'.. 

There is one fantastically easy solution ~

The UK to hold an EU referendum re-vote.

A re-vote would entice many Remain supporters who were too complacent to be bothered to vote last June, to get off their backsides and get their votes in this time around.

Also, a re-vote would produce more Remain votes from the few million Regretsiteers. 

A re-vote would be far fairer now, with all the Brexit lies, deceits, and whoppers exposed it would produce a vote with a true sense of democracy, a convincing win for majority of the UK who really would prefer to remain in the EU.

A re-vote Remain win would be far more representative to the true representation of the people.

And...

The SNP independence plan would completely evaporate [for a very long time].

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust [ a re-vote would be worth it just to see that alone!]

Teresa May and the whole rotten Tory Cabinet would be put up against the wall by a Tory wet takeover.

So it's a win win win situation!, what are we waiting for??

All we need is a re-vote! : D

Debs

naim_nymph posted:

There is one fantastically easy solution ~

The UK to hold an EU referendum re-vote.

A re-vote would entice many Remain supporters who were too complacent to be bothered to vote last June, to get off their backsides and get their votes in this time around.

Also, a re-vote would produce more Remain votes from the few million Regretsiteers. 

A re-vote would be far fairer now, with all the Brexit lies, deceits, and whoppers exposed it would produce a vote with a true sense of democracy, a convincing win for majority of the UK who really would prefer to remain in the EU.

A re-vote Remain win would be far more representative to the true representation of the people.

And...

The SNP independence plan would completely evaporate [for a very long time].

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust [ a re-vote would be worth it just to see that alone!]

Teresa May and the whole rotten Tory Cabinet would be put up against the wall by a Tory wet takeover.

So it's a win win win situation!, what are we waiting for??

All we need is a re-vote! : D

Debs

Ah, another bite of the cherry, and if that one fails, perhaps another, or if it succeeds perhaps those who lose will want another vote, when does it end, when you get your way?  I feel a deep sense of deja vue 

Interesting to see the quite personal anti-Sturgeon feeling in some of the posts here.

If I were Scottish, I'd vote for independence. The Scots have a government they didn't vote for forcing them out of Europe, which they overwhelmingly said they didn't want to happen. That is a huge, fundamental change of circumstances from the time of the last referendum, and therefore justifies a new one if there is the will for it in Scotland. And added to that, the government they didn't vote for seems hell bent on an austerity driven ideological crusade against a kind of socialist-leaning politics which is quite popular in Scotland. Just look at the reception of Mhairi Black's speeches and sentiments.

That's roughly how the Scots I know feel about it, and I can't say I blame them. Also, May adopting a lecturing tone when she says that a divisive referendum about independence wouldn't be good for the country will hardly go down well, coming from the party that brought us Brexit and then went about it in the way they have thus far.

Dave

If you were Scots you might consider the size  of your population, it's ability to support a separate economy and it's ability to support and compete on it's  own or within  the Euro zone ( will you be like Germany or like Greece or somewhere in between). Will you be able to afford all your free schools and other services. You might also ask yourself how attractive a trading partner are you to other countries or how attractive a member you might be to the European Community. Independence is great sounding but reality might not have the same warm fuzzy feeling.

That's fair enough, Clay. All that stuff would need careful weighing up, and perhaps 'I'd vote for independence' was a tad strong. More like I'd strongly consider it for reasons like those I mentioned, and balance the final decision against the considerations you highlighted.

That kind of rational, sober deliberation is nonetheless far removed from the blustering dismissals and name calling that have been prominent features of discussions of the issue in the past few days. And it's not as if being largely ruled by Westminster Tories has a universally warm and fuzzy feeling about it for Scots as it is. Independence can be a genuine choice for Scotland, even if you disagree that it'd be for the best - painting pro-independence Scots as conniving fools is hardly likely to endear anyone to anyone.

The question is which is more important to the Scottish electorate:

To be apart of the UK and remain in the EU

Or be independent county regardless of in or out of EU

Another question to factor in:

Would the English and Welsh electorate prefer a United Kingdom in the EU,

or a dis-United Kingdom out of the EU which incidentally is the way it's all heading.

All the above should be stressed to the voting UK public before an EU re-vote!

 

Clay Bingham posted:

Dave

If you were Scots you might consider the size  of your population, it's ability to support a separate economy and it's ability to support and compete on it's  own or within  the Euro zone ( will you be like Germany or like Greece or somewhere in between). Will you be able to afford all your free schools and other services. You might also ask yourself how attractive a trading partner are you to other countries or how attractive a member you might be to the European Community. Independence is great sounding but reality might not have the same warm fuzzy feeling.

Spot on, Clay. I can understand how Theresa May's statements and behaviour on this issue might rile those in Scotland who are inclined towards independence but in my view they need to decide between (a) pursuing independence as a means of (please forgive the expression) giving TM 'the finger' or (b) deciding the issue on what is best economically for the people and future generations of Scotland.   

You hit the nail on the head Dave***T.  All that stuff would need careful weighing up.  Some informed people have done just that before jumping to their feet and shouting and demanding that Scotland should be given Independence.

Nicola Sturgeon is only concerned about her name in history, not about the Scottish people because she does not speak for ALL the Scottish people, just the cabal that think she is right.

I don't understand why Sturgeon wants to separate Scotland from the UK (it's largest trading partner), become independent, but then tie itself to the EU and all the bureaucracy and red tape involved with being a member (one voice amongst many countries).  Can anyone explain the logic?  Surely independence should also mean independence from the EU as well?

Chris Dolan posted:
naim_nymph posted:

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust 

I think that might actually prove the existance of God though - which could be a Babel fish moment 

If he got ran over on the next Zebra crossing that would be good enough...

Eloise posted:
Chris Dolan posted:
naim_nymph posted:

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust 

I think that might actually prove the existance of God though - which could be a Babel fish moment 

If he got ran over on the next Zebra crossing that would be good enough...

In order to accidently be run over on a zebra crossing.....  he first of all needs to be forcibly removed from president Trumps ass...

 

wenger2015 posted:
Eloise posted:
Chris Dolan posted:
naim_nymph posted:

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust 

I think that might actually prove the existance of God though - which could be a Babel fish moment 

If he got ran over on the next Zebra crossing that would be good enough...

In order to accidently be run over on a zebra crossing.....  he first of all needs to be forcibly removed from president Trumps ass...

President Trump has a donkey?

(PS. You've never looked up the Bable fish in your copy of The Guide I assume). 

Eloise posted:
wenger2015 posted:
Eloise posted:
Chris Dolan posted:
naim_nymph posted:

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust 

I think that might actually prove the existance of God though - which could be a Babel fish moment 

If he got ran over on the next Zebra crossing that would be good enough...

In order to accidently be run over on a zebra crossing.....  he first of all needs to be forcibly removed from president Trumps ass...

President Trump has a donkey?

(PS. You've never looked up the Bable fish in your copy of The Guide I assume). 

Have now...

The clue might be in the fact that Nicola Sturgeon is a member of the Scottish National Party who since the day of it's inception stated that their politcal aim was to get independence for Scotland so I am not sure why you are lambasting her on here for pursuing that objective. Whether I agree with her or not.

Despite all the comments as well it seems the Scottish people think that she is protecting our interest and standing up to an austere UK government as I don't think she would have got re-elected otherwise.

Please don't think she is so stupid as to call one when she feels she won't win it so she is hoping Teresa May and the UK government will make a pigs ear of the negotiations for Brexit. Sturgeon is a very astute politician.

Her and May are both playing Blind mans bluff and are waiting to see who will blink first.

Remember she was elected on a mandate last year to keep Scotland in the EU whether that will happen or not is anyone's guess whereas Teresa May has not won a general election. Mind you she probably would because Labour look as if they are finished as a party and for them to get into power they have to re-establish their political base in Scotland and that doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon.

Possibly means you are looking at having a Tory government for the next 20 years.

Mind you I would assume you would all be up in arms if Teresa May had said I am sorry but even though you voted for Brexit I ain't going to pay any attention to what you lot think. 

 

On the original topic: (and prefacing my comments that I think he's a bad leader for the Labour Party) I once again find myself agreeing with Corbyn...

Scotland shouldn't be an independent country and should remain part of the UK and a referendum is not in the best interests of anyone; but if Scotland decide to hold a referendum then the UK government shouldn't try to stop them.

Can someone explain why after having a Scottish referendum on Independence and voting NO, 

Why  another one is required? 

Did we not vote Yes to leaving the EU, and have therfore started the process of excepting the voice of the people, regardless if we agreed to it or not.

As opposed to campaigning for another Referendum because we didn't agree with the result of the first one?

Almost right, what basically happened was that during the last referendum campaign we were lectured to on numerous ocassions that it would be disastrous for either the UK or Scotland to be outside the EU.

It was one of the scaremongering tactics used by the Better together campaign and last year the SNP were voted back in on the mandate that Scotland should remain a part of the EU and they could ask for a mandate to hold another referendum if there was a material change of circumstances.

As we now see circumstances would appear to have materially changed so that is why there is a call for a new one.

Everyone has assumed that there is going to be one but remember that this is just a call for one as it will depend upon what happens at the Brexit negotations.

If the UK gov gets a deal that allows Scotland to be a part of the EU, how that will work I do not know then the call is dead in the water.

As the UK gov have said on numerous occasions they want the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland not to be a hard border, could that not work for Scotland? 

ewemon posted:

The clue might be in the fact that Nicola Sturgeon is a member of the Scottish National Party who since the day of it's inception stated that their politcal aim was to get independence for Scotland so I am not sure why you are lambasting her on here for pursuing that objective. Whether I agree with her or not.

Despite all the comments as well it seems the Scottish people think that she is protecting our interest and standing up to an austere UK government as I don't think she would have got re-elected otherwise.

Please don't think she is so stupid as to call one when she feels she won't win it so she is hoping Teresa May and the UK government will make a pigs ear of the negotiations for Brexit. Sturgeon is a very astute politician.

Her and May are both playing Blind mans bluff and are waiting to see who will blink first.

Remember she was elected on a mandate last year to keep Scotland in the EU whether that will happen or not is anyone's guess whereas Teresa May has not won a general election. Mind you she probably would because Labour look as if they are finished as a party and for them to get into power they have to re-establish their political base in Scotland and that doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon.

Possibly means you are looking at having a Tory government for the next 20 years.

Mind you I would assume you would all be up in arms if Teresa May had said I am sorry but even though you voted for Brexit I ain't going to pay any attention to what you lot think. 

 

Fair points, ewemon.  As you say, there's a clue in the name of the party.  I can also understand the desire of people to protect Scotland from the seemingly theology-driven austerity policies of the Conservative party in government.  No such option for those of us living in England, I'm afraid.  However, the prudent Scottish voter would do well to think hard about whether 'austerity' will get better or worse if Scotland becomes independent.  I know that requires some crystal-ball gazing but it seems to me that there is a chance that austerity could become more severe. At the moment Ms Sturgeon can blame the Tories for 'austerity' and the resultant cuts in public services in Scotland. There would be no hiding place for her and the SNP in an independent Scotland, and I'm sure she knows this.  

There's also the currency question to address, which remained an issue of dispute during the last referendum.   With the UK leaving the EU, I don't see how that issue is any easier to resolve.   

ewemon posted:

If the UK gov gets a deal that allows Scotland to be a part of the EU, how that will work I do not know then the call is dead in the water.

 

I haven't seen any suggestion that HMG is prepared to seek a brexit deal with the EU which involves Scotland remaining part of the EU. Apart from the practicalities, it would open a political can of worms. 

Is the desire for Scotland  to be independent, all about nationalism?

The Scots basically dislike/hate  the English and having to be governed by them?

We want to be able to govern ourselves because it will be so much better?

No more austerity?

Freedom?

Are these the reasons for wanting independence? Or is their a more significant reason? 

 

 

I would imagine if the Northern Ireland Republic border question gets settled then that may just allow the UK gov to offer something up to the Scottish Gov that might be partially acceptable to them.

Remember the risk that the SNP have is that if they call the referendum and then lose again that would be the worst scenario possible, they won't risk that as if they did lose then it would be more than a generation before we had another.

At the moment it is all bluff and counter bluff.

I would agree that if there was a referendum and we chose self rule then we would have austere times but isn't that exactly the same outcome we are being told by various politicians re Brexit.

Yet the UK still chose to leave.

I think they have learned a lot from how the last campaign was run and will have an answer to the currency question the next time.

We might have a Scottish dollar or the groat who knows.

Their other failure was to over estimate the take from North Sea oil but what people forget is that the UK gov has also lost that revenue and that is one of the reasons we are going through austere times.

 

 

 

MDS posted:

 

Fair points, ewemon.  As you say, there's a clue in the name of the party.  I can also understand the desire of people to protect Scotland from the seemingly theology-driven austerity policies of the Conservative party in government.  No such option for those of us living in England, I'm afraid.

Of course the people of England could have voted for the option which wasn't continuing the aurterity policies of the previous 5 years...

There's also the currency question to address, which remained an issue of dispute during the last referendum.   With the UK leaving the EU, I don't see how that issue is any easier to resolve.   

I think the currency question is more a symbolic question than any real pro or con...

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