Scottish Independence

Eloise - I have to disagree about the currency question. It is much more than symbolic. If Scotland retains Sterling it enjoys a stable currency with associated (low) borrowing costs. It also has the backing of the BofE. If Scotland adopts its own new currency it would have to persuade the World's markets that it was worth what Scotland's government said it was. I suspect that would take some time and during that 'probation period', interest rates in Scotland would be much higher than they are at the moment. Since at independence Scotland would inevitably 'inherit' some proportion of the UK's £1.7 trillion national debt, the costs of serving that debt could be a heavy burden on the Scottish economy - a higher one than it experiences today.    

Of course, if Ms Sturgeon had her way and an independent Scotland were allowed to stay part of the EU - something I don't think the EU would permit - it might adopt the Euro. A solid currency, but Scotland would effectively be swopping monetary policy set by the BoE for one set by Germany.  Where's the independence in that?  

Don Atkinson posted:

According to the BBC news this evening, Ms Sturgeon has stated that Scotland would keep the British Pound.

So no controversial drama there, this time.

Except that the former Chancellor, Osbourne, said Scotland couldn't. I don't know what the current Chancellor's view on the matter is.

Frank F posted:

Here we have another point, what is the difference between UK and Scottish registration numbers??  It was easy years ago when HN was Darlington and TP Portsmouth but the change some years ago shows the forward thinking of the Civil Service and HM Government .

 

Scottish number plates - well they will be the ones starting Ssomething (e.g. SA17ABC; SB17ABC; SC17ABC; etc).

But you are mixed up there - HN is now Portsmouth (along with HK, HL, HM, HN, HO, HP, HR, HS, HT, HU, HV).

TP isn't a area code now; and Darlington doesn't have its own registration office.

 

ewemon posted:
audio1946 posted:

SCOTLAND first minister wants the English to go to live/work in Scotland, surely if all x scots do the same Scotland wouldn't have much space left

You would be surprised at how much room we actually have.

Indeed. When I visited many years ago I was shocked at how wide open Scotland was. Some parts reminded me of the openess one still finds in parts of our states of Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho. You could drive an hour and not see another car or person.

A number of people who have contributed to this thread have done so in order to  vilify Nicola Sturgeon by describing her as nothing but "power hungry", and equating her with the likes of the despicable and self serving Farage.  

As Ewemon has pointed out, Sturgeon is not just the Scottish First Minister, but also the leader of the SNP and so it is hardly surprising that she campaigns for an Independent Scotland.

I have to assume that those who caricature Nicola Sturgeon from outside Scotland do so either because they really don't know a great deal about Nicola Sturgeon, because they simply don't understand Scottish politics, or because they just want to have a 'cheap laugh' at her or the Scottish people's expense.

Unlike a number of other politicians who have been named on this thread, Sturgeon is an extremely intelligent and thoughtful politician and political leader. Not only that, but she has a pretty uniformly high popularity with the electorate in Scotland, irrespective of the underlying political leaning of the electorate. There will obviously be exceptions to this viewpoint in Scotland, but by and large there isn't currently the same political vitriol and confrontational debate in Scotland that has beset UK politics over the last few years.        

Nicola Sturgeon is well within her rights to call for a second Independence referendum. As many have already stated the last referendum was fought on the basis that Scotland (as part of the UK) was firmly in the EU, and that (according to claims from the 'Remain' campaign) Scotland would potentially lose its EU membership by voting for Independence. Furthermore, Scottish people certainly do not have an appetite to be governed by a far right Government of the sort being constructed by Theresa May and her cohorts. There is no doubt that Politics in other constituent parts of the UK has taken a lurch to the right, and this taken in conjunction with the unfortunate demise of the Labour party is likely to result in a lengthy tenure for a right wing Tory government for the foreseeable future.

Now, having said all this, I do take seriously some of the more reasonable arguments against Independence that have been made in this thread. Despite the respect that I have for Nicola Sturgeon, and the fact that I have voted tactically for the SNP in the past, I am not by nature a Nationalist. If a second referendum is called, and if Brexit negotiations go the way I expect them to go, I, along with many other Scottish residents will have a very tough decision to make about which way to vote this time round.     

 

Dave***t posted:

Interesting to see the quite personal anti-Sturgeon feeling in some of the posts here.

If I were Scottish, I'd vote for independence. The Scots have a government they didn't vote for forcing them out of Europe, which they overwhelmingly said they didn't want to happen. That is a huge, fundamental change of circumstances from the time of the last referendum, and therefore justifies a new one if there is the will for it in Scotland. And added to that, the government they didn't vote for seems hell bent on an austerity driven ideological crusade against a kind of socialist-leaning politics which is quite popular in Scotland. Just look at the reception of Mhairi Black's speeches and sentiments.

That's roughly how the Scots I know feel about it, and I can't say I blame them. Also, May adopting a lecturing tone when she says that a divisive referendum about independence wouldn't be good for the country will hardly go down well, coming from the party that brought us Brexit and then went about it in the way they have thus far.

Most Scots are ambivalent at best about the EU. There was hardly an EU Ref campaign north of the border, and the turn out was relatively low. Moreover, many Nats are not at all Europhiles, with senior party members in recent times bashing the EU. So to believe SNP is somehow the darling of Brussels is a joke. 

The narrative of the Brexit vote as somehow being a legitimate trigger for another Indie Ref is also bogus. As someone who lives in Scot, but is English, I can tell you that since the SNP have been running the show up here, the country has been preserved in aspic. Growth is at a stand still. Jobs are low wage, and the economy is weighted far too heavily on the public sector. And the SNP have now made Scotland the highest taxed zone in the UK to pay for keeping people in poverty on the West Coast - their natural constituency of voters.

The assertion that Scotland is at the mercy of Tory Austerity is a joke and simply not true. Ironically, the SNP administration has been gradually grinding down public expenditure in health, social care and education. 

Scotland does run its own domestic affairs re health, education, jobs, etc. 

There's just not the public swell of enthusiasm for another ref and the Nats know this is their last chance. 

I mean why leave an economic bloc that gives you over 10 billion a year to join another that charges you billions for membership - and throws in a flaky currency to boot! 

Timjoebill posted:

"I mean why leave an economic bloc that gives you over 10 billion a year to join another that charges you billions for membership - and throws in a flaky currency to boot!"

What?

This must surely be on a par with some of the more ridiculous claims by the Brexit campaign in the EU referendum.

Despite living in the same country, we obviously live in very different circles and have very different acquaintances.   

Do you really feel that there is any political appetite at all amongst Scots to be perpetually governed by a Party led by May, Johnson, Hammond and Fox, and one that is likely to veer even more to the right in the foreseeable future? Surely not amongst the poverty stricken people whom you seem to resent being 'propped up' by your taxes.  

Most social policy spending is controlled by the Scottish devolved government- not the UK gov.

I obviously don't resent anyone in society, especially those who are living in poorly served parts of Scotland, with little social mobility, little local investment, little economic development who are peddled the same 'blame the Tories for your lot' lies time and again. Scotland has been running its social policy affairs for 20 years. The truth is the SNP is cutting services right across Scotland with education standards widely viewed as falling dramatically under their watch. 

The point Im making is their vision of an independent Scotland is not one that will be in a position to help the neediest in society, and it will have to do much to turn the largely low wage economy up here into something that generates revenue for the Scottish Treasury. They're peddling false hope. 

 

 

 

Timjoebill posted:
Dave***t posted:

Interesting to see the quite personal anti-Sturgeon feeling in some of the posts here.

If I were Scottish, I'd vote for independence. The Scots have a government they didn't vote for forcing them out of Europe, which they overwhelmingly said they didn't want to happen. That is a huge, fundamental change of circumstances from the time of the last referendum, and therefore justifies a new one if there is the will for it in Scotland. And added to that, the government they didn't vote for seems hell bent on an austerity driven ideological crusade against a kind of socialist-leaning politics which is quite popular in Scotland. Just look at the reception of Mhairi Black's speeches and sentiments.

That's roughly how the Scots I know feel about it, and I can't say I blame them. Also, May adopting a lecturing tone when she says that a divisive referendum about independence wouldn't be good for the country will hardly go down well, coming from the party that brought us Brexit and then went about it in the way they have thus far.

Most Scots are ambivalent at best about the EU. There was hardly an EU Ref campaign north of the border, and the turn out was relatively low. Moreover, many Nats are not at all Europhiles, with senior party members in recent times bashing the EU. So to believe SNP is somehow the darling of Brussels is a joke. 

The narrative of the Brexit vote as somehow being a legitimate trigger for another Indie Ref is also bogus. As someone who lives in Scot, but is English, I can tell you that since the SNP have been running the show up here, the country has been preserved in aspic. Growth is at a stand still. Jobs are low wage, and the economy is weighted far too heavily on the public sector. And the SNP have now made Scotland the highest taxed zone in the UK to pay for keeping people in poverty on the West Coast - their natural constituency of voters.

The assertion that Scotland is at the mercy of Tory Austerity is a joke and simply not true. Ironically, the SNP administration has been gradually grinding down public expenditure in health, social care and education. 

Scotland does run its own domestic affairs re health, education, jobs, etc. 

There's just not the public swell of enthusiasm for another ref and the Nats know this is their last chance. 

I mean why leave an economic bloc that gives you over 10 billion a year to join another that charges you billions for membership - and throws in a flaky currency to boot! 

The overall UK economy has been weighted on Public and Service sectors since Maggies time in power as she basically killed most UK manufacturing with her policies.

She certainly killed the Topry Party in Scotland by using us as Guinea Pigs for what is now referred to as the Poll Tax

Re Tory austerity, the Scottish Government like all devolved parliaments have had their funding cut from central Gov, now that's not to suggest that everything is rosy up here but don't throw all the mud at SNP's administration.

They are not perfect by a long way as some of the choices they have made have directly affected services in Councils such as the Rate freeze even though they claim that they gave authorities extra funding but you can hardly say the current UK Gov are that great either, Social Care, NHS, Schools all in crisis.

If they were doing such a bad job I wonder why they got voted in again last year, strange that.

The Highlands at one time was an EU economic zone which benefited from large injections of EU cash to help widen roads and fund other developments. 

You only have to drive round the "poverty stricken" West  Coast to see signs everywhere "funded with help from the EU" or words to that effect.

Not sure where the replacement funds for those are going to come from because it certainly isn't from a right wing Tory Gov with eyes only for London and the South Coast of England.

Re taxation one of the biggest bugbearers on the "poverty stricken" West coast is fuel duty which as you well know is not in the remit of the Scottish Gov.

Like I have said before that currently it is a game of blind mans bluff and May and Sturgeon are waiting to see who will blink first.

The SNP will not risk holding a referendum if they feel they will lose.

 

Scotland would almost certainly not vote for Independence were a moderate Government in power in Westminster. However, with a "Nasty" right wing Government (with their inherent ideologies) led by Theresa May in power, and no longer moderated by the influence of the EU, the outcome will be far less clear. 

As has already been pointed out in this or another thread, my use of the word "Nasty" is a reference to the comment by Theresa May a number of years ago:

"There's a lot we need to do in this party of ours. Our base is too narrow and so, occasionally, are our sympathies. You know what some people call us – the Nasty Party".

There are degrees of 'nastiness'. I don't believe that May herself, or Boris Johnson for that matter, are inherently nasty. However, I simply do not agree with many of their political goals or ideologies. Others are perfectly entitled to hold a different opinion. Minimum pay and workers' rights - just two areas where the moderating influence of the EU may be missed in the future.

However, there are a few individuals in her party whom I do believe to be inherently nasty and divisive.

To court comparison for a minute with events in the States - as for Dobald Trump and his closest advisers (Steve Bannon and Sebastian Gorka), they are not "nasty". They are simply evil. Events (or mainstream political parties) in the UK don't even register in this category.

 

It's my personal view, that whatever party happen to be in government, Sturgeon would still attempt to come up with a reason for another Scottish vote on independence..... 

As one journalist recently suggested,  maybe the UK should have a vote to see if we still want Scotland to be part of the United Kingdom? 

wenger2015 posted:

It's my personal view, that whatever party happen to be in government, Sturgeon would still attempt to come up with a reason for another Scottish vote on independence..... 

Her party was elected on a promise to continue to push for more independence for Scotland.  What part of her current position is counter to that election promise.

The Westminster government on the other hand...

naim_nymph posted:

There is one fantastically easy solution ~

The UK to hold an EU referendum re-vote.

A re-vote would entice many Remain supporters who were too complacent to be bothered to vote last June, to get off their backsides and get their votes in this time around.

Also, a re-vote would produce more Remain votes from the few million Regretsiteers. 

A re-vote would be far fairer now, with all the Brexit lies, deceits, and whoppers exposed it would produce a vote with a true sense of democracy, a convincing win for majority of the UK who really would prefer to remain in the EU.

A re-vote Remain win would be far more representative to the true representation of the people.

And...

The SNP independence plan would completely evaporate [for a very long time].

Nigel Farage would spontaneously combust [ a re-vote would be worth it just to see that alone!]

Teresa May and the whole rotten Tory Cabinet would be put up against the wall by a Tory wet takeover.

So it's a win win win situation!, what are we waiting for??

All we need is a re-vote! : D

Debs

Which planet are you occupying? A re-vote? Padded cell is about right lol ....

Must say I find the whole Scottish independence campaign extremely boring.  There is an overwhelming lack of maturity in the arguments presented by Sturgeon, who is increasingly appearing to be the mouthpiece of on Alex Salmond.  Now there's a chap who should have walked off into the very long grass, never to be heard from in public political discussions again.  Their campaign for independence was extremely damaging for the Scotts who overall rejected their narrow self serving aspirations.

Salmond just can't leave it alone.  Sturgeon too.  They have invested too much of their political reputations and their little piggy snouts are too far buried in the trough of potential personal aspirations to have their names writ large in the history books.

They would be better served focusing on managing the challenges of running Scotland within the remit permitted to them successfully instead of covering up their inadequacies with independence campaign vII.  I do wish they would be quiet and, preferably, go away.

Peter

It was supposed to be a "once in a generation" vote and the SNP agreed to this and promised they wouldn't ask for a re-run if they lost. The saturation coverage by the media was torture and seemed to last an eternity.  I am now at the point where I really don't care if they vote for independence or not - just make them all shut up and go away!  I've had it with the lot of them��

northpole posted:

Must say I find the whole Scottish independence campaign extremely boring.  There is an overwhelming lack of maturity in the arguments presented by Sturgeon, who is increasingly appearing to be the mouthpiece of on Alex Salmond.  Now there's a chap who should have walked off into the very long grass, never to be heard from in public political discussions again.  Their campaign for independence was extremely damaging for the Scotts who overall rejected their narrow self serving aspirations.

Salmond just can't leave it alone.  Sturgeon too.  They have invested too much of their political reputations and their little piggy snouts are too far buried in the trough of potential personal aspirations to have their names writ large in the history books.

They would be better served focusing on managing the challenges of running Scotland within the remit permitted to them successfully instead of covering up their inadequacies with independence campaign vII.  I do wish they would be quiet and, preferably, go away.

Peter

What campaign, it hasn't even started yet and Sturgeon is certainly not the mouthpiece for Salmond whom I have no particular affection for having met and dealt with him on numerous occasions.

Still not sure why you lot don't get that the SNP have always from the day of it's inception said it wanted independence for Scotland.

"Their campaign for independence was extremely damaging for the Scotts" and Brexit isn't for the whole country?

Re broken promises if that's what you think happened.

Here are some more

Labour broke a promise a to hold a referendum on the EU Constitution but they called it a treaty instead.

Lib/Dems- tution fees

Torys- National Insurance

Reminds me of People in glass houses etc etc.

 

wenger2015 posted:

According to one of the latest opinion polls, the majority of Scots do not want a 2nd referendum?? 

UK PollingReport  dated 19 March says  .........  

a second referendum stands at YES 44%, NO 56%, similar to that in the YouGov poll in the week.    YouGov and Panelbase are both showing support for independence at a very similar level to the 2014 referendum, the most recent BMG and MORI polls have shown a narrowing of the NO lead.

Scotland also remains split over whether or not to have a second referendum. About half want a referendum in the next few years (32% while Brexit negotiations are ongoing, 18% after the end of negotiations), 51% do not want a referendum in the next few years.

northpole posted:

Scotland has enjoyed its referendum.  As has the UK.  They've been and gone.  Please do get over it and move on.

Peter

It's impossible to 'move on' from a flawed electoral procedure that produced a knee-jerk fluke winning result to such a narrow margin. The real majority and the real voice of the people will continue to remain with the 30 + million  who did not vote for, and remain not wanting Brexit. The 17m Brexit voters are in fact a minority, half of which are made up of people who realise they've not going to get the Brexit they've voted for and would change their minds if/when we get re-vote, plus more than a few million complete idiots who have always been clueless about how much the UK benefits from being a member of the EU. So don't expect the wiser and far bigger majority of the people of the UK who didn't want or vote for Tory Dogs Breakfast Brexit to get over this sham and move on. The irony is that most of the Brexit Tory Party fan club voters are going to be the ones worse off when those hob-nailed boots of Westminster start trampling over your rights that you were gifted with from the EU.

Debs

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