speaker match for 282/200

I'm very happy with my recently acquired 282 and the Guru QM 10's I own do what they do very well and have served me well but if you want to turn them up loud they fail miserably they just can't take too much power and they are just becoming a bit tiresome.  My budget isn't huge and so I have been considering some used PMC 23's my room is about 4 x 4m system is LP 12, ND5XS/282/200 speaker cablers are TQ Blacks, I listen to Reggae, Jazz and Soul mostly and I occasionally like to listen to Rock and so Bass is important!  Any suggestions ?

Original Post

The PMCs would be a good option I think. I play all sorts, including some Jah Wobble albums and they can certainly 'do bass'. It's the speed and drive of the bass that's critical, rather than absolute quantity. Naim Allae at around £800 would also be worth trying. I'm sure there are tonnes of others; I have only mentioned those I've lived with. 

I've had PMC 23s for about 2.5 years now and they have been great but I have found that since adding my 250DR to SN2  I feel I have a little too much Bass at higher volumes , I feel this is a room problem more than anything else and if I had no neighbours I wouldn't be concerned . I am currently trying ATC 19s seeing if they work better and even though its far too early to make judgement they are sounding rather wonderful . 

Wild card......and I am a bit biased here because  I have these....

ALLAES!  -  They sound pretty good on the end of my 282/supercap dr/200 and they're a steal nowadays.  Find a nice later pair and still have £££'s left for more music  (and get the full Naim experience!). As with all, performance will be room dependent etc.  My two penneth anyway!

pete T15 posted:

I've had PMC 23s for about 2.5 years now and they have been great but I have found that since adding my 250DR to SN2  I feel I have a little too much Bass at higher volumes , I feel this is a room problem more than anything else and if I had no neighbours I wouldn't be concerned . I am currently trying ATC 19s seeing if they work better and even though its far too early to make judgement they are sounding rather wonderful . 

I'll be interested to hear your overall comparisons to the 23's when you've finished your demo :-)

Listening, to 25.21 at the moment.. quite impressed, possibly not quite big enough for my room.. orchestral crescendos sound a little suppressed when loud , and not as extended in the bass as I like, but other than that very good... nice warm balance, quite dynamic and voices sound beautiful with them.. definitely going to try 25.23.

Heard the Iota Alphas today at the dealer's today being fed by a Statement.. mids and treble sounded great, bass was a bit indistinct though although voluminous, perhaps position and set up... 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Heard the Iota Alphas today at the dealer's today being fed by a Statement.. mids and treble sounded great, bass was a bit indistinct though although voluminous, perhaps position and set up... 

Probably the amp at fault here. The Neats deserve better 

Ok, calling those with PMCs, I am not sure if it's the 25.21 I am auditioning not being full run in or not, but on choral music with strong treble soprano I hear a very slight coarseness to the upper treble in the voices ... anyone else heard that... having been a chorister in my early youth, I notice these things unfortunately..

Simon, I have the 20.23's. It was definitely a feature of run in that I found, with what I would describe as a coarse top end. This eventually smoothed out and I wouldn't describe it as a feature of the 20.23's after the run in. I do find however that they're pretty unforgiving of anything that isn't right in my set up, but I suppose that's also true of Hugo and SN2. It took me a while to get the right combination of cables etc to get what I feel is the best out of them. 

Hi thanks, yes I like good quality front ends and you probably know from my posts I am a bit fastidious   ... 252DR /250 and Hugo, careful network design and RFI management , and other revealing speakers  I have and borrowed in the last couple of weeks dont exhibit this slight graininess... it does remind me of earlier ATCs that took upto a couple of hundred hours for that slight treble coarseness to smooth out, I think they used custom SEAS drivers like PMC. The later in house ATC treble drivers don't do this... anyway thanks for replying and suggesting most likely run in related

Simon

I found the 20.23 had a very slight coarseness in the upper-mid...I suspect at the crossover point. It was evident on some vocals.

When I had the 23 I didn't notice it too much. It was when I changed to S400 that the more open nature of a 'speaker handling the upper-mid really became apparent.

G

Can easily recommend the Reference 3A Veena. Now in a new stealth Matt black finish. Canadian speakers at best in this price range along others for quality hitting 3k £idge.

musical without doubt with great tone, scale and authority. With an uncanny ability to track the signal, what with no crossover as such on the main driver. I Have recently tried out other speakers in the 3 to 8 k but still diminutive dimension, but nothing has given greater gains worth over the quality of this speaker.

GraemeH posted:

I found the 20.23 had a very slight coarseness in the upper-mid...I suspect at the crossover point. It was evident on some vocals.

When I had the 23 I didn't notice it too much. It was when I changed to S400 that the more open nature of a 'speaker handling the upper-mid really became apparent.

G

Graeme, thanks.. the treble grain started to get on my nerves... i could hear it also in brass .. and it was in Sandy Denny's voice that was the final ticket.. I put my ATCs back in and wow, the expansive clarity and resolution in those sweet highs and upper mids was back.. I had missed it.. the tight but slightly lean  bass was back too. Now if only I could find a speaker that I could demo that sounded like the ATC but was more bass extended that could work in my room...

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Graeme, thanks.. the treble grain started to get on my nerves... i could hear it also in brass .. and it was in Sandy Denny's voice that was the final ticket.. I put my ATCs back in and wow, the expansive clarity and resolution in those sweet highs and upper mids was back.. I had missed it.. the tight but slightly lean  bass was back too. Now if only I could find a speaker that I could demo that sounded like the ATC but was more bass extended that could work in my room...

Methinks once an ATC man, always an ATC man? Perhaps the larger (active) ATCs might be the ticket in providing the extended bass that you are looking for.

It is interesting that you find the treble of the PMC 25.21 to sound slightly harsh as my previous experience with the older PMC models revealed them to be smooth sounding speakers. Either the speakers are not run-in yet, or the treble is not as smooth as the ATC SCM 19s that you currently own. Another possibility I can think of is after living with the ATCs for a considerable period, you may have got accustomed to the house sound of the ATCs and regard the (new) sound presentation from other loudspeakers to be "off".

Although I am happy with my Harbeth Super HL5 Plus, I may try the SCM11 or SCM19 sometime. Not to replace but to complement the Harbeths. The comment on the lean and less extended bass of the ATC SCM19 does worry me a bit though.

You could be right hence seeking feedback from PMC users. I have just found one PMC Twenty series review that commented on slightly grainy treble. I have listened to the Neat Iota Alpha, Russel K, Kudos and Focal speakers and they all very smooth and revealing trebles like the newer ATCs. The RK 100 although very good were perhaps  to mid dominant for my tastes.. I will try the Neats at home... when I heard them at the dealer they were booming a bit though as set up there.

My ideal speaker perhaps would be the PMC balance, extension and size, ATC mid detail with a quality ribbon tweeter such as used on the Neats... does it exist and demoable.

The RK 150 sounded close, although not ribbon tweeter... but quite big blocks of speaker

 

Wilko,I use the Taksim reference 3a's with the N272/250dr combo,and it is simply stunning,the instruments sound like they are actually in the room with me on good recordings,they are very revealing...and poor recordings send me running from the room,lol.I realize these are not the reflectors,but same company,same drivers,with a smaller,glass sided cabinet for the reflectors.I think the reflectors look super cool too,on those adjustable stands.I would say they definitely work well with Naim,I can't wait to add the xps dr to the 272.

Yes I didn't say or mean harsh, it's response is smooth, but there is a noticeable bit of low level grit or grain in there... you don't hear in much music, but get trumpet, saxophone or clarinet solo you hear it... some less processed recorded female voices show it up too in the upper registers... it does remind me of the old ATC tweeters, however once you notice it, it's impossible to ignore. I guess its possible it might only show/be more noticeable on higher end equipment and I am expecting too much from the PMCs? I am using a 252DR /250 plus Hugo. Perhaps a 272 or SuperNait of some kind might be a better match.. this synergy thing can be a pain..... thanks for your feedback

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
 

Graeme, thanks.. the treble grain started to get on my nerves... i could hear it also in brass .. and it was in Sandy Denny's voice that was the final ticket.. I put my ATCs back in and wow, the expansive clarity and resolution in those sweet highs and upper mids was back.. I had missed it.. the tight but slightly lean  bass was back too. Now if only I could find a speaker that I could demo that sounded like the ATC but was more bass extended that could work in my room...

An interesting speaker thread here, but I am intrigued by the Sandy Denny test. Judging by your comments in other threads we probably wouldn't see eye to eye politically, but can probably agree on Sandy's brilliance. I wondered whether you had a particular performance/recording in mind - this is on CD presumably (of which there are several masterings, I think!). My Harbeths are about to go to a new home this weekend and have been replaced by SBLs (primarily to suit a change of house). My sense is that the Harbeths are more transparent and sweeter than the SBLs on vocals and I will be making a final comparison before they disappear.

Clive

Clive - yes lets stick to music  - Northstar Grassman and the Ravens - sung live I believe at the Paris Theatre, London - the first track on the BBC Sessions 1971-73 CD (the rare one - but may appear on other CDs) - absolutely sublime haunting voice - nearly always gets me emotional...

My memory of the Harbeths C7s was  that treble was very sweet and smooth - i just felt the loose bass and dynamics let it down..

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:
GraemeH posted:

I found the 20.23 had a very slight coarseness in the upper-mid...I suspect at the crossover point. It was evident on some vocals.

When I had the 23 I didn't notice it too much. It was when I changed to S400 that the more open nature of a 'speaker handling the upper-mid really became apparent.

G

Graeme, thanks.. the treble grain started to get on my nerves... i could hear it also in brass .. and it was in Sandy Denny's voice that was the final ticket.. I put my ATCs back in and wow, the expansive clarity and resolution in those sweet highs and upper mids was back.. I had missed it.. the tight but slightly lean  bass was back too. Now if only I could find a speaker that I could demo that sounded like the ATC but was more bass extended that could work in my room...

Answer is active scm19a or scm40a with Hugo TT. The passive scm40 will give you a better top and middle with more low end. I know you have tried previously but try again and see if u come to the same conclusion. For me the scm40 is a masterpiece only improved by the actives. If they have one weakness they are a bit flatter at lower volumes. There is a compromise in everything.

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