LP12 Radikal Problem

I said earlier in some thread, that I shall write a thing about the LP12, that maybe can help many here,.....well here it comes.

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A year ago,or maybe longer back in time (time goes so fast), we find this issue with the LP12.....if it has the ◾Radikal power-supply.

We have tested alot, and we have problems to understand, why some LP12's on Klimax level sound so bad. It was a guy in our group who find this issue/problem.After we find this problem, we have talked to the best Swedish retailers on LP12's,they didn't know about it. Now at these days, many retailer/dealers knows about this, but not all. We have also talked alot with Linn,....and Gilad (MD) about this subject/issue,but thats between them and us.

The dealers/retailers who knows about this issue, are trying to solve the problem for there costumers. Peter Swain Cymbiosis, Tomas Okeef USA ect,ect.

 ◾Fredrik Lejonklou has done a good write-up about this issue on his forum,I have talked to Fredrik,and he says that its ok to use his writings about this issue. It's better then write it all over again 😉. There you also have pictures from the inside of the LP12, so you can see the problem for yourself,.....(I have problem to post in pictures).

See Fredrik Lejonklou's forum under "On the Inside"...subject "LP12 Radikal problem for the pictures.

If you don't know about this issue/problem, and have an LP12 with a Radikal power-supply,......then you must go to your dealer so they can control your LP12.It's about 50 % of the LP12's with Radikal's who has this problem. BUT FIRST,...read this information about the LP12 Radikal problem.

 🔽 🔽 🔽🔽LP12 RADIKAL PROBLEM 🔽 🔽 🔽 🔽

Everyone who has a Radikal motor on their LP12 and either a Trampolin or a Urika needs to read this. If your retailer does the service, specifically ask him about this issue! If you service it yourself, check this!

The Radikal motor is housed in a big can, which is very deep. Below the can is the left rear trampolin foot and the distance between these two is very small. On some LP12's (currently 2 out of 4 that I have checked), the can actually rests on the foot. This causes the LP12's musical performance to drop significantly. Bass gets sluggish and untimed, music becomes a bit "seasick" instead of rock steady. The following picture was taken with a GoPro camera by Erik:

 🔸Here you shall have the picture from the inside of the LP12.

Radikalhousing.JPG (164.2 KiB) Viewed 891 times
What you see in the picture above is
To the left: Part of the left suspension spring,
Upper middle and right: Keel subchassis,
In the middle: Radikal motor can with its aluminium lid at the bottom,
Below the can and its bottom lid, on the left side: The rear left Trampolin foot assembly.

If you have Radikal and Trampolin, there is also a screw on the Trampolin foot that protrudes right below the can. Unless this screw has been grinded down in length, it's guaranteed to press against the motor can. On the Urika, the feet are rotated 45 degrees to move this screw away from the Radikal can.

One way to test if the can touches the foot is to make a long piece of thin paper that gets more narrow on one side and protrudes through the hole below the arm pillar (picture by Paolo below). Place it on the Trampolin/Urika, install it below the LP12 with a few screws and then place the LP12 on a table, standing on its Trampolin feet. Now pull on the piece of paper to the right of the arm. Is it stuck? Then you have a problem.

 🔸Here you shall have the picture of the paper-test.

Papertest2.jpg (132.67 KiB) Viewed 891 times


If you have the problem, your Trampolin/Urika needs to be moved down, away from the can. I have grinded down the outer perimeter of the Trampolin foot slightly and thought that was enough, but when I did the paper test, it turned out it wasn't - the can and foot were touching. So I have added some wooden strips between the plinth and the Trampolin, which I bought from a hobby store. They had lots of varieties there, so I bought two of every kind. What's needed is a width of 8-10 mm and a thickness of 1-2 mm. On most LP12's I suspect 1 mm will be enough, but there are no such thin strips in my newly acquired collection. With 2 mm, you might begin to get problems with the screws not gripping as well in the holes of the plinth (in which case you can use a longer screw). While I'm sure that different types of wood are likely to sound a bit different, the ones I have which are most uniform in thickness are 8x1.5 mm strips of Lime-tree. They're quite light and soft, so I have removed the old felt strips (the purpose of which I believe is to prevent rattling). I wanted to try Balsa as well, but they varied so much in thickness; 1.2 to 1.6 mm. I don't really know what is optimal, perhaps we can help eachother find out what is?

Wood type?
Thickness?
Original felt strips - in place or removed?

Please note that all plinths are a bit different, so you will need to verify the dimensions on yours. I have a Linn original in maple and used the following measurements when cutting and drilling my four pieces of strips. These strips are for my Trampolin. The front and rear strips are 410 mm long and the left and right are 305 mm. Please note that when drilling, the strip easily cracks. If you clamp it between two other pieces of wood, you can prevent this. Or you might make it by being very slow and gentle. It's good to have more strips than you need, in case you break them.

 🔸Here you have a paper-writings picture.

Stripes2.jpg (136.61 KiB) Viewed 891 times
EDIT: I see now that I forgot to draw the hole in the middle of the rear strip.

I didn't use any glue when installing the Trampolin with the strips lying on each of its four edges. Glue would surely have made it easier, but I felt a bit sceptical of it and the installation is doable anyway. After the installation, the Trampolin sits 1.5 mm lower than before.◾ And the result is a completely transformed musicality of the LP12. Much, much better. ◾

 🔸Here you have the last picture of the Trampolin.

Trampolin.jpg (199.87 KiB) Viewed 891 times

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I hope that,after you have control this,....and maybe fix it. You get the soundquality from your LP12, that you deserved for your hard earned money.

/Peder 🙂

 

 

Original Post

Hi Folks, Long term reader but first time poster.

 

I read this with some alarm but found a fairly easy way to check if you have an issue. I removed the 3 screws nearest the motor and loosened the 4th which allowed me to wobble the foot and check clearance. My plinth is 67mm overall in height and seems fine. I trimmed the 2 nearest screws to the motor just in case.

 

This worked for me, hope it may help someone else if you are happy to DIY. Do at own risk blah blah and get dealer involved if not happy etc......

 

Great forum by the way.

Shellspeed,....many plinths are 65mm,and they have problems.If your is 67mm,maybe you are one of the lucky guys  😉. But it's a small difference between right or wrong here. It's the metal-ring and the screws inside who is the problem.

If I have the right information,Chris Harban (Woodsong), who made third party plinths.Has after this findings start doing his plinths a little higher.

/Peder 🙂

Drikus posted:

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◾◾here you have invisible pictures◾◾

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 😂, Wrong spelling where the two last pictures shall be.

/Peder 🙂

Christopher_M posted:
Peder posted:
The Radikal motor is housed in a big can, which is very deep.

Shallower can maybe.

This has Fredrik Lejonklou write about the issue,he has made good writings about this issue that we find out, on his forum. Instead of writing a new text about the problem, I was allowed to.....as I say earlier use Fredriks text.

Fredrik is one of three, of the best in Sweden to set up LP12's,so he know what he talks about.Better to use his writings then, when the issue should be explain to you.

/Peder 🙂

Drikus posted:

Unbelievable, a money pit like the LP12 still needs some DIY to sound great✋? Who makes these plinths, Aldi✋? 50% of them are bad leaving the factory ✋? Some quality control if tolerances of 2mm are allowed ✋.

If memory serves,  at least 3 different for companies for Linn over the years directly plus at least 4 ‘after market’ sources I can recall with out even taxing a google search. There have been issues with later base boards fitting early plinths too so ‘tolerances’ have moved over time. 

Drikus posted:

Unbelievable, a money pit like the LP12 still needs some DIY to sound great✋? Who makes these plinths, Aldi✋? 50% of them are bad leaving the factory ✋? Some quality control if tolerances of 2mm are allowed ✋.

I AGREE,....but the meaning with this thread is to inform everyone who doesn't know about this problem. So they can take contact with a dealer and maybe solve the problem.

I will NOT, here on Naims forum, say something bad about Linn in this subject....but I think all of you knows what I/we think about this.

/Peder 🙂

Drikus posted:

Unbelievable,  Some quality control if tolerances of 2mm are allowed ✋.

One thing I can say that chocked me/us. When we have contact with Linn,and Linn's MD in this subject (it was a lot of contacts). They (Linn) say that this was NOT an issue,it was in the specifications that it shall be in that way  😵 😲.

And here is what Fredrik Lejonklou writes (one of Swedens bests in LP12 setups), when he has fix'd the problem...... ◾And the result is a completely transformed musicality of the LP12. Much, much better.◾

And dealers in USA, Sweden, Great Britian ect try to help costumers to solve this issue.

Who do you believe in..?

/Peder 🙂

Radikal audiophilia....even in audio forums the extremists can exist.  

In other subject, i found a video in youtube about an audiophile japanese guy:   He was living in a very little room with so many audio components that he had no place to eat or invite friends,  the bed was in the bathroom....

Maybe more annoying that this is a Naim forum,  I'm sure the many Naim forum LP12 owners are interested, but I suspect many of these folks also read the Linn forum where "STOP, This is IMPORTANT ... "  should reside.     And looking on the Linn Forum's TT & RP, LP12 section,  I don't see it.   

All I can say is that I have a Radikal fitted by me under the watchful eye of my dealer and I have no such problems - no grinding here unless it’s my teeth at the prospect of forking out for a new Kandid at some point in the future. I use mine with a Superline so expect I can reply to a Linn thread. Agree it would be better on the Scottish forum.

I had nothing but trouble with LP12 Radikal, too fussy and fiddly at its price point for my liking.

Also had to take a ferry to get it serviced properly. Eventually bought a maintenance-free deck. Had I known about his issue I’d have worried even more....lol.

Although not a radikal owner...as far too expensive for what it is ...I have a certain far east based alternative..so can appreciate the clearance problem ..

Personally I don't use a base board at all ..I thought the trampoline completely smothered the sound..

Anyone with an lp12 should at least try removing the bottom board ... whatever type it is..and even if they just support the deck on the four corners with level blocks as a temporary measure .. TRY IT !!!

notnaim man posted:

For those who want a calm and considered discussion, this is on the Scottish forum under the thread "Should it be like this?"

Agreed and perhaps when there ask Linn for an informed comment? As I say, d

Delighted with mine and no need for corks, Trampoline 2 removal, foam inserts and the like. If it was indeed that bad I’m surprised that Linn isn’t flooded with returns and refunds.

Still the new Technics superdeck (see latest issue of HiFi News) does seem to be the future - for vinyl replay anyways..if I was starting over it would be on my list.

JoexNaim posted:

I had nothing but trouble with LP12 Radikal, too fussy and fiddly at its price point for my liking.

Also had to take a ferry to get it serviced properly. Eventually bought a maintenance-free deck. Had I known about his issue I’d have worried even more....lol.

Blimey you must be the only person with a maintenance-free deck.....

Japtimscarlet posted:

Anyone with an lp12 should at least try removing the bottom board ... whatever type it is..and even if they just support the deck on the four corners with level blocks as a temporary measure .. TRY IT !!!

AFAIK there's live stuff underneath and Linn don't endorse the suggestion.

Christopher_M posted:
Japtimscarlet posted:

Anyone with an lp12 should at least try removing the bottom board ... whatever type it is..and even if they just support the deck on the four corners with level blocks as a temporary measure .. TRY IT !!!

AFAIK there's live stuff underneath and Linn don't endorse the suggestion.

No and you might invalidate your home insurance.  

Although I do not have a Radikal I think Peder should be congratulated for the well meaning and if you do own a Radikal/Trampolin base essential information and as for his exictable style I would rather that than some of the negative, sniping, sarcasm and criticism that passes for helpful discussion on this forum.

If you do find Peder's individuality and enthusiasm irksome no need to bother reading his threads or his posts is there?

Bob the Builder posted:

Although I do not have a Radikal I think Peder should be congratulated for the well meaning and if you do own a Radikal/Trampolin base essential information and as for his exictable style I would rather that than some of the negative, sniping, sarcasm and criticism that passes for helpful discussion on this forum.

If you do find Peder's individuality and enthusiasm irksome no need to bother reading his threads or his posts is there?

+ 1, well done Peder!

I did check mine and the motor was pressing the upper part of the Trampolin2 foot.

I cut the upper part of the feet by 53mm, so it doesn’t touch the motor case. What a sound! I’m rediscovering my LP collection.

In the meantime I bought the latest version Trampolin 2 with the rotated screw positions. This is what Linn have done so far, but that’s not enough. The motor is still touching the foot. I described the issue on the Linn forum, under another name there.

Some say to remove the bottom cover of the motor, but it’s part of the design. I guess the cover provides EMI and RFI protection and gives a bigger weight for less vibration while the motor is in action.

Linn should definitely come out with a solution here, a new construction of the motor foot seems the easiest way.

 

 

 

It's strange this issue is only now widely coming to light

So many dealers must have just bolted on the motor..slapped on the base ..and gone " job done"

If linn really couldn't be bothered to supply a custom base in the ( 3k upwards !) Price of this kit ..then it really should have reduced the size of the motor assembly by a few mm. There is about 6mm between the bottom of the maxon brushed motor and the inside of the motor housing ..to accommodate the wires and the insulation..and then the base is another 5mm or so thick ...so plenty of scope to give some extra clearance

But to be honest, a custom base would have cost linn maybe £50 in materials and could have become the new "standard" base easily ..

All a bit shoddy on a pricey upgrade IMO

Don’t forget it is inconsistent plinth height that is causing this issue. When Linn designed this motor and base concept it was no doubt based around the current plinth they were selling. 

With plinth height variations being reported by nearly 3mm you cannot blame Linn for fit issues entirely. Particularly if the plinth is not of Linn supply post Radikal/Urika/Tramp date.

What is (and consistently seems to be) a huge issue is the attention to detail that dealers building the decks pay to these sort of issues. The design of the LP12 and the dealer is either the decks success or undoing. It’s not hard to do but it’s very easy to get wrong. 

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