Supernait and 250DR

I was asked to look after another forum members 250DR for a few weeks whilst he demos a 300. I didn't hesitate to agree and try it on the back of my SN. We hooked it up last night and the Immediate improvement in sound was an absolute joy to hear. I have recently added a HCDR and this I felt was a great improvement for the pre amp on the SN as many have said in the past. The 250 was a bigger step up and is a stunning amp. With improved clarity, bigger soundstage, and a much better control of the bass this amp really does project a more realistic image into the room and I really don't want to give it back! Obviously I will though, as this isn't the next box for me, but wow, I really do love what it does. 

Original Post

Interesting findings! I have SN2 + HCDR also and I'm too afraid to try out the 250DR. At this point it's very problematic to take the next step in amplification. I think it's not a good idea in a long run to keep SN2 as a preamp only. So if you want to go for 250DR, you need a proper preamp. Well everybody here says that 202 is not good enough for 250DR so it would need to be 282. At this point we talk about quite a big budget. Of course we have 272 + 250DR but considering my recent experiments with NDX, I doubt 272 matches Naim DAC as a source. 

I had a home demo of a 272/250 dr combo while i still had my SN 2 with Unitiqute 2 as a digital source into Hugo,into SN 2.I felt the 272/250 dr was miles ahead of the other combo with NO redundancy,so i went for the 272.250 dr with no regrets,i also kept the Hugo.I tried many different combo's that week,i also have Dynaudio xd 600's,so i wanted to compare passive versus active,being fed from the 272,i also have passive Dynaudio excite 12's here,and borrowed c1's to try with the 272/250.The one combo i WANTED to try was hooking the 250 dr to the SN 2,and was about to do it,when i thought...there is no way in hell i would keep this combo,it would be too much of a waste of the SN 2's power amp,so i did not bother,i wish i did to this day,i also had a high cap dr at that time,so the SN 2 would of had DR technology in the preamp and then use DR tech from the 250 dr...might of actually been ahead of the 272/250.but too many boxes and redundancy for me,so i am with PATU on this,it is not a realistic long term solution.

I don't see what the problem is with running the 250 with the SN for a while. It's hardly going to do any harm. It depends on where you're wanting to end up really and if there's a chance of getting a 250dr at a good price from someone you know I'd go ahead. 

I'm using a Superuniti with a 300dr and it's fine. I figured I'd make the big step rather than smaller upgrades which would only cost me more in the long run. This time next year I'll have done away with the SU for something else. I've got an itch regarding a used 552 and a 372.

oh and some more Fraim to put it all on £££££££££££££££.

Very much agree with DREWY, I don't see what the problem is, the SN is more then capable and if the improvement is transformational, it's a no brainer... 

My own upgrade path was more about purchasing at a to' good to miss opportunity ' then possibly the natural order... enjoy the 250dr ...

wenger2015 posted:

Very much agree with DREWY, I don't see what the problem is, the SN is more then capable and if the improvement is transformational, it's a no brainer... 

My own upgrade path was more about purchasing at a to' good to miss opportunity ' then possibly the natural order... enjoy the 250dr ...

The problem is the idea that you waste 50% of the SN2 when the poweramp isn't used. Back in the days when I got the original SN, it bothered me that I didn't use its internal DAC anymore since I got the nDAC. I upgraded to SN2 immediately when it was released. 

The great thing is though @Patu is that it isn't a waste! It is temporary. The SN is perfectly capable of playing the role of Pre only. I doubt SN/250 is anyone's dream system. To upgrade from the excellent intergrated to a better pre/power will cost 8 grand and not many of us can afford to do that in one go. Half the outlay is more achievable. This is, if it stays, a step in the direction I'm heading. At a later stage the SN would obviously be swapped for a pre such as the 282, and I can use the HCDR I currently own, or 272 if I start thinking about streaming. 

Same plan here. Have SN1 and saving money for a poweramp next to it. then save money and replace the SN by a good preamp. Not forgetting source of course, but I feel that I need to study much more on this since this digital world is changing fast.

Does anyone know by the way if you connect a poweramp - lets say NAP 250 - to the SN, if that can be used to power a second zone too? I have my SN in an attached room to my living, but it would be good to have some decent speakers in the attached room too since the tv is there.

When I got my 272 & 250DR to replace my SN, I took the opportunity to both use the SN amp section with the 272 and also put the 250DR on the SN. Using the SN pre with the 250DR was a very nice combo, so you are not going to be "suffering" if you have to live with that for a while.

I was really happy with my SN1 and had I not gotten such a killer deal on the new gear I was very pleased and satisfied with it as it was.

I think the SN1 was a great piece of gear, and very versatile given the built in DAC.

I use a SN2 as pre with a 250DR and it sounds amazing , its definitely not a combination I would have bought together at the same time though . I had enjoyed my SN2 bare for the best part of 3 years and always knew one day I'd go to a Pre/Power set up . Around march this year I had the opportunity to try a new a 250DR on sale or return , from the off it was never going back and whilst I would obviously be better off with a 282 etc. attached the lift in performance and enjoyment the 250DR gave me will keep me happy for a while yet .... 

 

Ardbeg10y posted:

Same plan here. Have SN1 and saving money for a poweramp next to it. then save money and replace the SN by a good preamp. Not forgetting source of course, but I feel that I need to study much more on this since this digital world is changing fast.

Does anyone know by the way if you connect a poweramp - lets say NAP 250 - to the SN, if that can be used to power a second zone too? I have my SN in an attached room to my living, but it would be good to have some decent speakers in the attached room too since the tv is there.

You can add a second amp to the bi amp din socket on the SN. This would however output the same as the main speakers and you wouldn't be able to control the volume on the second amp independently of the main speakers. 

Patu posted:

It seems that SN2 + 250DR works well. I wonder why 202 + 250DR is thought to be such a bad combo. Maybe SN2 has a better preamp than 202 then? 

Someone here has the NAC 202 with the NAP 250 DR and it was reported as a great sounding system. Not too sure if anyone has compared the Supernait2/NAP250 DR and the NAC 202/NAP250 DR though.

ryder. posted:
Patu posted:

It seems that SN2 + 250DR works well. I wonder why 202 + 250DR is thought to be such a bad combo. Maybe SN2 has a better preamp than 202 then? 

Someone here has the NAC 202 with the NAP 250 DR and it was reported as a great sounding system. Not too sure if anyone has compared the Supernait2/NAP250 DR and the NAC 202/NAP250 DR though.

Ok that's interesting. I've asked about 202 + 250DR few times here and usually people have told it's better to go for 282 + 200 than 202 + 250DR. But I'm not interested in 282 + 200 since my ATC really could use the extra juice 250DR offers and I'm not sure 200 even betters SN2's power amp. 

The 250dr on the back of my SN has been a joy to listen to. The control, detail and soundstage that it provides is fantastic. I returned my system to SN/HCDR and my wife noted that something had changed and I needed to put it back to how I had it, it just doesn't sound as good! All in good time my dear, all in good time. A truly brilliant amp and it's been a pleasure having it to stay, but I must get used to SN again. 

Patu posted:

Finkfan,

Could you go little bit more in to detail about the differences between SN2 and 250DR. Are they very clear or only small changes? Do you feel that the bass became more powerful with 250DR or only tighter with better control?

Hi @Patu. The difference between the two amps is significant! Immediately you can hear more music. Because the bass is more under control, its tighter, more agile, faster and kept in its place. This all allows more details to be heard as they're not being drowned out by big waves of bass. Vocals tones are more accurate and lifelike. Everything sounds clearer. The soundstage is larger and more 3 dimensional. It does give the impression of being more powerful, almost like a SN that's had a workout. My American speakers love the 250DR and you can really turn it up loud. Also it's just as good a low volumes. Again, clearer and more detailed than the SN amp. 

Dont get me wrong, I do love my SN. But after hearing it with a 250DR it brought a rather large smile to my face

Finkfan posted:
Patu posted:

Finkfan,

Could you go little bit more in to detail about the differences between SN2 and 250DR. Are they very clear or only small changes? Do you feel that the bass became more powerful with 250DR or only tighter with better control?

Hi @Patu. The difference between the two amps is significant! Immediately you can hear more music. Because the bass is more under control, its tighter, more agile, faster and kept in its place. This all allows more details to be heard as they're not being drowned out by big waves of bass. Vocals tones are more accurate and lifelike. Everything sounds clearer. The soundstage is larger and more 3 dimensional. It does give the impression of being more powerful, almost like a SN that's had a workout. My American speakers love the 250DR and you can really turn it up loud. Also it's just as good a low volumes. Again, clearer and more detailed than the SN amp. 

Dont get me wrong, I do love my SN. But after hearing it with a 250DR it brought a rather large smile to my face

Thank you Finkfan, it's interesting to hear detailed impressions about this combination since it's not very common setup here. And this is exactly the next step I should take also since I use SN2 + HCDR at the moment. Why I'm interested about the bass performance is that I use quite a big and power hungry speakers in a ~20m2 space (ATC SCM40v2). They're closed design so it helps a lot and the bass keeps in nice control as it is, but I noticed that not a lot needs to change and the bass goes out of control. If I removed the HCDR, SN2 is not able to drive ATC's properly and the bass is all over the place. Also when I experimented with PSU upgrade for the Naim DAC (XP5XS and one aftermarket PSU), the biggest change was insane amount of bass after the PSU upgrade. In my setup I preferred bare Naim DAC to both of the PSU upgrades. That's why I'm afraid if 250DR adds more bass to the mix, since it's the last thing I need. But if it only improves the handling of the bass then it would be a perfect addition. Should I give it a try, hmm...

Is give it a try @Patu. In my system there definitely isn't more bass. The SN1 can be a little bass heavy on some of my music but I tried those tracks with the 250DR and there's no problem at all. It made the music much more enjoyable. My Revels produce all the bass I want, if not as low as it cold be and with the 250 on board I just want to turn it up louder! 

Finkfan posted:

Is give it a try @Patu. In my system there definitely isn't more bass. The SN1 can be a little bass heavy on some of my music but I tried those tracks with the 250DR and there's no problem at all. It made the music much more enjoyable. My Revels produce all the bass I want, if not as low as it cold be and with the 250 on board I just want to turn it up louder! 

So you compared it with the original SuperNait? I used to have SN1 also before I updated it to SN2. The improvement there was also dramatic. 

Patu posted:

Finkfan,

Could you go little bit more in to detail about the differences between SN2 and 250DR. Are they very clear or only small changes? Do you feel that the bass became more powerful with 250DR or only tighter with better control?

I think you have the original SN, that the OP is talking about, and a SN2 confused.

I recently did a home demo of the SN2 and 250-2 DR. There is a difference in the presentation, but the differences are not as much as this poster has expressed between the SN1 and the 250-2 DR.

By the way,  it's pretty funny that I did purchase the SN2 because of the sonic qualities used to describe the 250-2 DR.

In other words, there is quite a big difference in sound quality between the SN1 and SN2.

After using the N272/250 dr for a week earlier in the year,going back to the SN2/high cap dr was a pretty big let down for me,everything seemed rather 2 dimensional and lacking life,this prompted me to go for the 272250dr and I am very happy now... much better to my ears.

Haha, I can see that idea going down well with Mrs DayJay.  The last time I considered the 250dr I talked myself out of it and bought an RP8 instead because I'm still enjoying my SN2 but this thread has been interesting.  I may have to borrow one from my lovely dealer and try for myself.

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