Witch hat din-xlr cables for nap500

Huge posted:
analogmusic posted:
 

But N.I.P. is a moving target.

The Lavender is supplied with the CD5Si all the way to the NDS.  Do they all have the same N.I.P.?

Yes

The DIN to XLR is supplied with the 300 and the 500 (and the same construction is used for the 250, just with 1 wire not connected), do these all have the same N.I.P.?

Yes

 

All systems are a balance of sound that's an engineering compromise with component altering the sound in a different way, and this applies to Naim as much as any other manufacturer.  So, if N.I.P. covers a range of balances, and another cable shifts that balance a little, but still stays within the bounding limits of one Naim system or another, is that not still N.I.P.?

No, it is not. Please read the comments I posted above about loss of tension and leading edge, and a certain softness to the sound. It is why I understand that Naim never made a Hi-line DIN/XLR.

What about changing speakers?  They have such a dramatic effect on the balance of the sound; surely to remain with the limits of N.I.P. we must use Naim speakers, otherwise we'll be completely outside of the limits of N.I.P..  If we can change speakers to those of another manufacturer and remain within N.I.P. than surely we can change to a different manufacturer's CD player (or amp...   or cables!).

that's debatable, some speakers do in fact cloak and choke the Naim intended performance. 

P.S. I understand the principle, I just think your expression of your approach is far too dogmatic.

Maybe, some things like speakers are debatable, some issues like PSU are not.

There's a very good reason for that, and as I said, what I want is to hear what Salisbury designed so carefully. Others may  like another sound. 

to be clear I am talking about a Naim amplifier as a component. Not a source or a speaker.

In case it is pointed out I use Chord DAC and Dynaudio speakers, I would say agree, it is a dilution of the Naim intended performance. But that's ok with me, as I like the performance of Chord DACs and Dynaudio speakers.

 Anyway - where is the Naim turntable - before the appearance of Naim CD players?

And also most of the Naim sound comes from the amplifier, that's what I hear. My opinion.

Let me try a simpler paradigm...

If, hypothetically speaking, someone, for instance, found a cable with characteristics precisely in between the standard N.I.P. black cable, and the (presumably also N.I.P.) Super Lumina cable, would that not also be N.I.P.?

if it has the same electric properties of the standard Naim DIN/XLR - (capacitance, inductance, resistance, diameter of the cores), sure why not?

But I am not an electronics engineer, and it isn't a good use of my time to try to re-invent the Naim DIN/XLR cable

Also I tried to make a RCA to DIN cable of my own using a Canare cable, and it sounded nothing like the Naim standard RCA to DIN, at which point I just gave up.

There are surely better things to do in life than second guess 40 years of Naim engineering?

 

analogmusic posted:

if it has the same electric properties of the standard Naim DIN/XLR - (capacitance, inductance, resistance, diameter of the cores), sure why not?

But I am not an electronics engineer, and it isn't a good use of my time to try to re-invent the Naim DIN/XLR cable

Also I tried to make a RCA to DIN cable of my own using a Canare cable, and it sounded nothing like the Naim standard RCA to DIN, at which point I just gave up.

There are surely better things to do in life than second guess 40 years of Naim engineering?

 

So, let me get this right...

You are asserting that any cable that doesn't have "the same electric properties of the standard Naim DIN/XLR - (capacitance, inductance, resistance, diameter of the cores)", cannot have N.I.P. when used inbetween a (any) Naim preamp and a NAP250, NAP300 or NAP500.

Is that correct?

I don't know - and frankly made my peace with this issue. 

I tried a few non Naim cables and something fundamental was lost. 

try this track on tidal

"Lonely boy " by The avener

There is a guitar there impossible to miss the difference in leading edge between the Naim DIN/XLR and a non-naim one.

I don't have anything more to say on this other than please try the track for yourself.

 

 

 

analogmusic posted:

No - it’s something that naim must know themselves as they refused to change their din xlr for 40 years almost

But it has changed, as have SNAICs, Lavender, and even speaker cables from A4 to A5. And then they brought out SL. Naim have pondered the same issue and have made changes. 

Their cable designs are hardly carved in stone slabs on the mountain.

Huge posted:

I have 4 sets (if you include the Naim originals, which I didn't make!).

To my ears (with my speakers, in my room!) I found the Mogami W2497 to be the best cable between the 272/555 and 300DR.
To be fair I haven't compared them to SL or Chord Sarum (any variant) or Music.


I posted the relevant links above.

Huge, what would be the best Mogami din/xlr cable between a Hicap and a 250 ? The W2497 only have 2 conductors.

t@rmac posted:

Bought and soldered  MOGAMI Neglex QUAD W2534..............4 conductors  only ,   no  power required in my system 

Nac 272 to Nap 200    ......excellent result 

Glad the W2534 work out well for you!  I have just ordered some W2549 and will try that between HCDR and Nap250.

I experimented a few years ago with Mogami W2534 & W2549 between CDX2 (at that time) & Supernait.  I eventually settled on W2549; I felt that it had a slight edge with SQ & a 2 core on 2 channels with screen carrying -ve made more sense.  The Naim system has a common ground/-ve & I could not see any point in connecting the 2 wires on the #2 pin in 'quad' & then decide what to do with the screen.        I made them to the exact length to minimize the already very low capacitance.

I also tested Mogami 2549 and 2534 but connecting an ND5 XS to a Nait XS.

Whereas mike thought there to be slight edge in favour of the 2549, I on the other hand found there to be a slight advantage to the 2534 when wired as pseudo balanced.  That is, I used 2 cores for the signal (one for each channel) and two cores for the signal return; I connected the screen only at the source end (lowest impedance to mains protective ground at this point).

I suspect the very small differences may well be system dependant!


When testing cables to connect the 272 to the 300, I didn't bother with the 2534, but I did test the 2549 and, in most ways, found it superior to the standard Naim cable (the only aspect where I found the standard Naim cable preferable was that of bass integration with the midrange).

Mike-B posted:

I experimented a few years ago with Mogami W2534 & W2549 between CDX2 (at that time) & Supernait.  I eventually settled on W2549; I felt that it had a slight edge with SQ & a 2 core on 2 channels with screen carrying -ve made more sense.  The Naim system has a common ground/-ve & I could not see any point in connecting the 2 wires on the #2 pin in 'quad' & then decide what to do with the screen.        I made them to the exact length to minimize the already very low capacitance.

Mike, would the Mogami W2534 be the one to use for a RCA/DIN 5 cable? 

You could try Mogami 3106,  I've had success with that

If you strongly prefer to use unbalanced rather than use a pseudo-balanced cable construction, then you might try 2528, but I don't think the materials or construction are quite as good as 3106.

cat345 posted:

Mike, would the Mogami W2534 be the one to use for a RCA/DIN 5 cable? 

Yes,  as it 'appens I made up a 6m DIN-RCA 2534 a few months ago for a friends AV setup, with some red & white braided sleeving & shrink wrap at the RCA "Y" end & it looked very professional. 

Plus 3106 as suggested by Huge would be good.   

 

MangoMonkey posted:

The seller found the cables and is mailing them to me now.

Good to hear MM. if you are still curious about The WitchHat cables the beauty is that the makers are happy for you to order and if not happy with them, return them. I think it’s 28 days period, but check their website. I tried them looking for a sound improvement over the stock cables, but to my ears found them to just give a different presentation rather than a better one. However, many others on the forum have preferred the WitchHat so, as ever, it will be down to system/listener preferences. The cables are beautifully made. 

More for future info for people searching...

I have just finished testing a range of Cables (not speaker yet) from WH and found they all increased detail and separation in the sound strane - positive results. Only the DIN>XLR to my 250's are staying in place though. The other options added more 'HiFi' but removed the emotional connection to the music, in my system, in my room etc etc.

Great support from the company and honour the returns policy so cannot speak more highly of them. Will give the speaker cable a go at some point im sure.

 

Rob 

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