Upgrading from Cyrus Mono X

MF, Musical Fidelity or Music First?

You’ll find that a Naim power amp works best with a Naim preamp, which defines the operating conditions for the power amp. Using one with a passive pre may or may not work well, and is something of a lottery. 

hungryhalibut posted:

 Using one with a passive pre may or may not work well, and is something of a lottery. 

It also resembles a lottery in the odds of winning.

Music First Baby Mk II

Works well as Bel Canto DAC3.7 has high output levels.  It sounded better than Bel Canto Pre3VBS I had before.

Pre-amps are not a Cyrus strong point so that is why I went elsewhere.

Interestingly, I seem to recall that Naim's own Steve Sells may have had a hand in the design of the original Cyrus aPA7 zero feedback mono amps. 

get a supernait 1 or 2, that should give you plenty of power plus the preamp in one box

You might be in with a chance but will need to try it, the transformer is least in your favour at higher volume. Maybe compare your source through the MF against a NAC into a Naim power amp. There seems to be a dealer in Versaille if that's handy, hopefully he'll be willing to indulge you.

Hi, I came across to Naim from Cyrus... the MonoX amps are superb.. I ran two of them with my then ATCs... it’s the digital sources and preamps where Naim start to significantly outshine (and as you say above Cyrus preamps are not one their strong cards) ... if I am honest it took a 282 HiCapDR / 250.2 before I felt I was getting more musical insight from my previous Cyrus MonoX based system.. and even then the 250.2 didnt really have the punch and speed of the MonoXs.. but I guess one is not comparing like with like.

So the 250.2 only has a single XLR input that means I would need one heck of a weird cable to connect to my XLR only pre-amp.  The 250.2 seems to have only half the rms power, half the current and half the short burst power.  I am beginning to understand the all Naim or nothing approach that seems to be common here!

Alternative plan would be to get a 282 preamp and 250.2 allowing me to sell my nice passive pre as well but this is now getting expensive even second hand as we are past 3000 quid.

Do Naim amps have special speaker cable terminations?  I have some banana to spade cables and I use banana to MFA convertors to match my Cyrus power amps.

Indeed, yes probably go all Naim amplification (NAC/NAP) or go alternate manufacturer for the amp chain, though Naim NACs have a good reputation with working with some active speakers. It’s worth pointing out that although the 250 amps use an XLR connector, XLR is usually used for single channel balanced connections, but the 250 uses XLR as a stereo combined unbalanced connection.

The Naim power amps may use XLRs but they are not balanced - they are single ended.  Really Naim power amps are designed to be fed from a partnering Naim pre-amp - two halves of the one amplifier.  Mixing with other brand pre-amps can often give a mismatch with poor results.

I think that if you're considering Naim amplification then you do have to consider the amplifier as a whole - i.e. pre and power together. 

Naim power amps use standard 4mm banana sockets.  Speaker cables are best used with the supplied Naim 4mm speaker connectors - that way you get the exact metal to metal contact match.

Thanks for the information.  It sounds like this is going to rule our Naim for me as I don't need an expensive multi-input preamp to connect to my DAC.

I am quite tempted by a Naim demo and my local shop though.

once you hear Naim there's no going back. The preamp is part of the Naim legendary performance.

I

angelface posted:

Music First Baby Mk II

Works well as Bel Canto DAC3.7 has high output levels.  It sounded better than Bel Canto Pre3VBS I had before.

Pre-amps are not a Cyrus strong point so that is why I went elsewhere.

I wouldn’t necessarily rule out a Naim power amp just because you use a non-Naim passive preamp. A number of people use a Townshend Allegri with a Naim system, including one (ex) forum member who said it sounded better than a 552. So I’m quite sure that this can work, although I’m not exactly sure how your MF differs from the Allegri. 

As for which Naim power amp you should consider....how fat is your wallet?! I’m sure a dealer would set up a demo for you. 

Angel, you might recall in 2010 I went from pre x + psxr into mono x's -> nait xs. 4 box pre/power -> integrated. With no apparent loss of quality (for me, at any rate) or feelings of regret. I now have a supernait 2 which is a fair step up from the original xs. I think you need to listen and compare; one might assume the equivalent in naim to be 202/200 or 282/250 but really you need to decide for yourself. I borrowed a superuniti for a short while and decided the switch to a single box was a step too far, but was impressed by what it did and the grip it had over the rega speakers I owned at the time, but was very happy/confident to buy an xs unheard based on what the superuniti did.

So last Saturday I arranged a demo with my local Naim dealer.  This is what I heard

Esoteric CD player into Naim NAC202 into Naim250DR into Proac Reponses D48

I played 3 tracks 

Coldplay : Yellow

London Grammar : Rooting for You

Def Lepard : Slang

What did I think?

Great rhythm, tight and plenty of bass.  Midrange smooth a bit recessed (Like artist was standing over there rather than next to me). Treble a bit smoothed off.

Dealer suggested we tried some other speakers so we tried some Apertura Orina.  These gave more treble and the sound was less recessed.

I then went home and listened to the same tracks on my system.  London Grammar was so much better but the others seemed a bit fuzzy and the drummer seemed out of time with the bassist.

So IF (and it is a big if) I go Naim I'm thinking of a NAC282 with a non-DR NAP250 as these can be bought for around 3400 quid second hand.

Don’t forget the Hicap.

If you search this forum, you will see many posts suggesting that 202/250 is not a great combination, and it’s better to run a 250 with its natural partner, the 282. That would be my choice, or if it’s over your budget, possibly 282/200 as long as your speakers are not too demanding. 

angelface posted:

So last Saturday I arranged a demo with my local Naim dealer.  This is what I heard

Esoteric CD player into Naim NAC202 into Naim250DR into Proac Reponses D48

I played 3 tracks 

Coldplay : Yellow

London Grammar : Rooting for You

Def Lepard : Slang

What did I think?

Great rhythm, tight and plenty of bass.  Midrange smooth a bit recessed (Like artist was standing over there rather than next to me). Treble a bit smoothed off.

Dealer suggested we tried some other speakers so we tried some Apertura Orina.  These gave more treble and the sound was less recessed.

I then went home and listened to the same tracks on my system.  London Grammar was so much better but the others seemed a bit fuzzy and the drummer seemed out of time with the bassist.

So IF (and it is a big if) I go Naim I'm thinking of a NAC282 with a non-DR NAP250 as these can be bought for around 3400 quid second hand.

If going second hand lots of cheaper choices out there, though 3400 quid for 282/250.2 seem fair, still need psu-hicap as a 250 don't power up preamp

Don't trust the specs, Naim amps are more powerfull than conservative ratings, but everything depends of course of your speakers and room, not to forget your source which I might have missed what it is?. FWIW My little Nap 90 (45w) was more powerfull than a friends Rotel 200w. A Nap 250.2 will drive most speakers effortless, as will the original Nap250 or the mono version Nap 135.

Save the hicap to later (suggest) and look for

102/180 - 32.5/160 - 72/140 - 82/180

Preamp mentioned first, lots of other choices, look at product history on this site for more information

Mentioned poweramps have preamp-psu inside

Older CB or olive is great amplication but might need service by now if nothing filed

Also a 202/200 (allmost same look as 282/250.2) will be a much cheaper solution, you could allways upgrade or put funds against optimized source, when lottery comes out

On the other hand perhaps I'll go for a Bryston power amp..

You'd almost think that the Cyrus power amps were designed to work best in a Cyrus system. Just like Naim power amps...

Good that you've found where you want to go

Interesting - I wonder if the source is the key differentiator there. When I started my Naim amp journey I was already using a CDX2/XPS. I was feeding a Cyrus PreX/PSX-R and 2x Mono X amps driving the older generation ATC SCM 12s ... I have to say it sounded truly enjoyable  and the timing and grip was superb - it had real punch and 'air guitar' factor

I was however intrigued by Naim amps as I so much enjoyed my CDX2 - I started with a 202/HiCapDR and NAP 200 - it was good - but if I am honest it wasn't really upto the standard of my previous Cyrus X system. The detail and insight and punch (perhaps the latter understandably) just wasn't there - but there was the interesting Naim sound.. anyway dissatisfaction quickly set in and I upgraded.

I moved to a 282/HiCapDR and NAP250.2 - and now I felt I had a system that bettered my Cyrus X system - although still not the visceral grip and punch of the Mono Xs I suspect it was the 282/HiCapDR that was the major improvement over the PreX/PSX-R.

My CDX2 was a constant throughout/

I can't help feeling an interesting experiment would have been a 282/HiCapDR feeding 2x Mono X or their later derivatives - I am sure it would have sounded interesting - bringing the best of both camps together - but sadly I never perused that option.

If you go Olive then that £3,500 would get you close to a 52/SC/250 which will kill any amp at that price point IMO and likewise 82/SC/250.  Unfortunately those amps will be hard to demo but if you can listen to a 252/SC/250-2 or 282/SC/250-2 and you like how they sound then I'm certain that you will like the older Olive versions.

I really think you should listen to some properly matched Naim amps as the 202/250DR you heard at the dealers before is probably about the worst combination at that price point that you could have heard from Naim especially if the 202 was running bare without either Napsc or Hicap. Even with it's partner the 200 the 202 without a Napsc or Hicap would sound exactly as you described but pair it with a 250DR and it would sound completely shut in or as you described with the singers far away and the mids and tops a bit smeared.

Book another demo with 202/Napsc/Hicap/200 and 282/250 with both Hicap and SC and also 252/SC/250.