NDX 24/192 streamer board update ?

Tog

All Naim network players reproduce the most " common file formats " so not sure what you point is but in support of Naim and not only because we are a Naim Distributor who offer full technical support to customers here in Spain and Portugal, they are the very opposite of arrogant. They do listen and respond to our feedback and are responding right now to the points Allen raised. As I said earlier, watch this space...

In addition, tell me one of our so called competitors who offer remote technical support to customers! That is NOT including the IT/software companies who offer UPnp/streaming/server etc products to audio enthusiasts

Now talking of arrogant, I can tell that my fellow compatriots near Eaglesham do not give a monkey´s toss about how their customer rip nor store their music, now that is arrogant!

Here in Spain, they arrogantly told their dealers to sell the RIPNAS product. That was a technical disaster for the dealers, which we took great advantage of.

Their products are of course very good but up against the Naim network players, euro for euro, certainly not attractive, IMHO.

Gordon

Hi Allen,

Thank you for an honest and compelling response. It would seem that Naim rips are fairly limiting in the event of a hardware fault. Thus leaving no options if this is your prime source. To be honest I was not aware of this. I have ripped my CD's to a NAS in the early days as FLAC and as time has progressed and I have a better understandiing now as WAV using db poweramp. I have Logitech Squeezeboxes "dotted" round the house and therefore had no choice.

I can't wait to read your thoughts on your new source set up.

One other thing, some people might of thought "sod this" and gone else where. Thank you for keeping the faith in Naim. I don't work for Naim just a big fan.

Keep up the good work on your posts Allen, I don't always get to respond (my four year old takes care of that!) but I do enjoy your posts.

Hi Allen

Thanks again for your thoughts, we always find your posts interesting and usually very informative.

Sadly for us it is not possible to remove the wireless element from the new streaming boards, this has removed all of the streamers from our available choice of units. Having already discounted the Userve because of my prejudices expressed above that only leaves the HDX, but that also suffers from not having an FM tuner, good grief another box.

If you do feel inclined Allen, we would appreciate your thoughts as to whether or not the new HDX digital out now lifts it above the Qute, as this is a concern if not. We thought the NDX quite a margin in front of the HDX at the Summer Sound event we attended. Although we have two dealers within 10 minutes of home neither have a unit to demo, really need one at home to try of course, but not likely to happen.

I’m sure you would prove correct about the web control interface. We didn’t get to see this at the show as the guys there spent probably more time than it was reasonable to expect trying to think of ways to improve what we have now; great guy’s, great company, it’s just one of the reason we just can’t bring ourselves to actually seriously look to make a purchase from another brand. Then there’s the sound of course.

Gordon’s comments are tantalising and yet throw another spanner in the works, is this something that may be imminent, hang on a little longer in case its more than software or just get on and make a decision? Why fun.

Hope and trust you will have your new kit very soon, we would find it very difficult to be without ours for any length of time, more than a day say; hmmm, perhaps a separate tuner isn’t such a bad idea after all.

Thanks again

Peter

Hi Tog

I am pleased to hear your wireless is stable and obviously works well for you, others seem to be less fortunate and clearly do not get the best results when they use it. My point was for many a wired connection would prove beneficial. I also realise that for many this would be difficult and not that desirable to have to install. In these cases I would have thought a bridge adjacent to the streamer would be better than built-in, as to cost, looking at the cost of the upgraded boards a bridge is easily comparable.

As to Naim’s decision over the ripping and storage method that they settled on, whilst we may wish for a different approach perhaps we should give it a try before we complain to loudly. I haven’t done this, you may have, but if they believe that to wring the best out of a system overall they need to supply a total solution then I guess that’s fair enough, I could be convinced this is the case. As with any other part of our systems we can buy into it or look elsewhere; I say this despite what I said above.

Anyway, my dear Tog, as a self confessed Apple fanatic, I would have thought you would appreciate this approach i.e. being locked in to a system, after all it’s hard to imagine a more controlling environment than the Mac.

Regards

Peter

Allen

I think you may be in need of some technical support from either your dealer or Naim, I do not have this issues

Gordon

No RipNas

Listen pal, if you think my comments were unhelpful, get off the firkin computer and your arse and solve your perceived problems directly with your dealer and Naim instead of trying to share and probably mislead other!

You say you are not sure how they are going to something that you do not even know anything about yet.........so why not just belt up and talk to them...they will reply to you!

+1

The world is getting mad: reading the posts above one can wrongly assume that Allen is a patient Trade Member and Gordon is over-emotional and capricious consumer 

Anyway, Allen -- I can't share your view that CD555 is the only Naim CDP outperforming NDX/nDAC/555PS. It's much depended on the sonic elements we are talking about.

In sheer hi-fi terms like openness and resolution the nDAC/555PS (with almost whatever transport) is already ahead of all Naim CDPs. But in terms of musical balance and delicacy and analogousness both CDS3 and CD555 are still the best Naim sources.

I pretty much sure Naim clearly understands this point and will surely come up with proper streaming rivals to their best CDPs (which we spontaneously draft as NDS).

I just want to share my penny on the 24/192 subject -- IMHO this is not the point to worry at the moment. In other words you are not loosing much by not having it at the moment.

My way is to wait for NDS. I already bought 555PS for experiments  and it was a clear improvement on XPS but it didn't change the bright character of nDAC 

AMA - intriqued by your comment about the nDAC being bright. On some recordings I find it a little bass heavy, I am sure this is becasue of the mastering, but have been experimenting with two different sets of interconnects, a very 'pure' set for classical and normal recordings, and some solid silver ones for bass heavy mastering. Either way my expiereince the nDAC is anything but bright - usually neutral and sometimes benefits from some extra sparke on bad recordings. Mind you I am using Cyrus amplification which perhaps partners with the nDAC / 555PS well

Simon

@Peter - fair point but oddly a lot of my favourite software I use on my Apple Macs is open source or free. Apple keep a tight grip on the OS and hardware but allow sufficient flexibility to encourage a very healthy growth of third party apps and programs. So healthy that from time to time they buy the companies or "adopt their ideas!  

Only recently Apple tried to buy Dropbox when they couldn't they developed their own version.

Apple and Naim have a similar approach in some ways but Apple know when to leave well alone and when to grab an opportunity. 

Tog

Hi Tog

It was of course intended as a joke, a cheap shot that us PC users don’t get many opportunities at, couldn’t resist.

My issues with Apple are from a very long time ago, I don’t think anyone would argue that they have exploited their market to the full, can’t even blame them for that – damn it. However, I think they have not helped the cause of good music or the recording of good music, very personal opinion of course.

All the best

Peter

Hi, Simon. There is not much I can add on this subject. I did lots of listening tests between nDAC/555 and KDS1 and I can say that KDS1 is a more analogue-sounding player. The only  element it gives up to nDAC/555 is a bit (just a small bit) leaner bass. Both units are still sitting on my Fraim and I can easily switch between them -- be my guest to hear what I hear.

KDS1 constantly upsamples any input bitstream upto 24/384 but I don't hear a typical upsampling "ringing". Quite possible that Linn came up with a very "smart" upsampling algorithm and matching analogue output filters to circumvent the well-known upsampling problems and achieve a really stellar analogue-type performance on the old crappy Red Books.

btw KDS is not the only player which sounds more analogue to me comparing to nDAC.

For example, MBL 1611F is also very sweet and analogue-sounding DAC (it should be at 30 K$).

Both Linn and MBL give me a sense of vinyl-type replay which I still value higher than any CDP I came across so far.

Allen, CDS3 is the past and let it be there.

Let's hope Naim will come up with NDS asap so we can employ the whole power of 555PS  

I agree with Simon, in that the nDAc/555PS is neutral and not suffering in any way from brightness, which in fact I occasionally found my CDS3 to be. The big change for me with the nDAc/55PS was the improved definition and presence of, the bass.

It also works very well with Naim amplification. I do use Chord Sarum IC's so not sure if this has any influence. 

Gerry

I'm with Gerry and Simon,

The nDAC sounds neutral to my ears in my system, although bare it can edge on the digital.

That said, like Simon, I do not use Naim amps.

I was interested that when I listened to a Benchmark DAC1 through Naim amps I could understand why many people here do not like it, while in my setup ot was great.

That said both AMA and Gerry use top of the line Naim amps, but very different speakers.

M

Hi AMA -

Not trying to turn this into a vote, but I, too, do not hear any brightness in my NDX->DAC/555PS source.   But it doesn't matter -- we all hear things differently.

When I was at RMAF, I heard MBL's new "entry level" Corona line.  I use the quotes because this term obviously means something different to MBL.   Their new North American rep said that the Corona CD player I was listening to inherited its DAC secton from their "reference" DAC, and I can certainly understand why you found its sound appealing.  While I could only listen in an all-MBL setup, it was definitely one of the smoothest, most "analog" sounding rooms I heard at the show (Audio Note being another).  But it was a surprise to me that their omni-directional speakers had such a well-defined sweet spot!

If you are interested, you can do a youtube search on "mbl corona".

Hook

Hi Hook,

Yes, I wasn't trying to turn it into a referendum, in the end what you hear in your own system is what counts.

Generally one of the strengths, and weaknesses, of the Naim forum is that so much gear is owned commonly, making it easier to share experiences. I thought it was interesting that whilst Simon and I are against the norm, in holding the one Naim component that many hold commonly, Naim amps, that AMA & Gerry do - and yet appear to be getting different experiences.

I am sure that if Graham R. floats past he may well agree with AMA, having dumped his nDAC/PS555 for the Linn ....I think he still has his CD555/Dual PS555?

M

Hi Hook,

I have been posting a lot today - using up some excess AL, and ripping vinyl. I am sure you hit the nail squarely on the head when you say we hear things differently. There was an interesting news article the other day about how our perceptions of colour are different, and I think I saw a thread suggesting that this must be true of sound too.

With different preferences for hardware, music and different room shapes and surfaces the chances of us getting any sort of consistent experience, even if were personally physically the same, is next to nothing ....and yet we here are all be attracted to good quality audio.

I think it is interesting to sit with a real musician listening to a piece of music, invariably they approach the listening experience in whole other way from me. Personally I just want to be transported, their expertise makes this more difficult for some I believe. I have recorded music for s few conductors I know, ALL they hear are the errors, and somehow recordings accentuate this!

A few months ago I was at my dealers, now sadly closed, at a Naim roadshow for the 600s. I didn't say very much, but I was fascinated by the questions, as they indicated the WAY in which the particular person was listening to the system, OR to the music, so I think your idea for RMAF is a bloody good one.

Martin

I think the problem can be if somebody has just traded a high quality CDP for a streaming solution then they can feel the urge to try to convince everybody it is better, contrariwise if somebody has rejected a streaming solution in favour of a CDP upgrade then they can again feel the urge to try to convince everybody it is better. 

I don't really believe in the concept of better at this level. 

I have a CDP (Meridian G08.2) which I'm trying out as a transport and it works beautifully with the Naim DAC; however, I also have W4S Sonos ZP90 and this works as well. It is very close. Even if you ask which is easier to use it is very close. These both rival my Sony Dolby S/HX Pro cassette deck in SQ and that is very good news, as you can't get the tapes these days. If the Sony was released now then I think it would be around £2000 for its SQ, However picking out a song on a tape even with AMQ is not easy. 

Now this wouldn't be true for everybody. I never use playlists, I always play an album straight through. So one of the advantages of computer audio doesn't shine through for me. However, I do like creating a second album out of bonus tracks and restoring the original to what it should be. I also don't always like the cover art so I change it. I doubt anybody else share my bizarre behaviour and so will have different preferences. 

The nicest user interface I've seen is the Meridian Soolos; I'm not convinced it sounds as good as it should, but that UI is amazing ... I can't see how anybody wouldn't like it. It would change my listen habits for sure. I could never play an album like Chas & Dave (& Albert) Live at Abbey Road without the temptation to click on the UI and start reading about Albert Lee and before you know I'd have jumped in to his solo work and then I'd discover he was on ..... so off to Amazon to buy ... well there is a downside. [OK everybody thinks I'm joking when I say Chas & Dave (& Albert) Live at Abbey Road is the best live album I've ever heard, but it is and has my favourite guitar sound ever - up there with Garcia on Anthem of the Sun]  

However, I wonder if we should be looking at a new purchasing model - perhaps have hardware paid for over 5 years with updates included and then a trade-in against the latest model at the end of the term. Similarly for music software, we could upgrade through the numbers 44.1/16, 88.2/24, 176.4/24 and 352.8/30 as these became available - perhaps a token upgrade fee.

Where I think Naim may be missing a trick is up-sampling. My two sources both do this to good effect and I feel sure Naim could offer this at least as option its rendering engines. 

All the best, Guy

Click copy/paste. Filed away for future article.