NDX 24/192 streamer board update ?

Look forward to reading it Jon, although you may need to be quick or he could/should be gone.

Peter

I haven't read the white paper in a while but I thought the nDAC DID upsample to 764 or something.

True, nDAC produces 16-x oversampling. But upsampling/oversampling techniques could be very different.

Interesting that when nDAC is fed with hi-res it sounds much softer and the gap with KDS1 is minimized.

Hook, the "brightness" of nDAC is only audible when comparing to more analogue soruces: like LP12 or KDS.

I think it uses oversampling rather than up-sampling

Simon, there is a good bunch of people who hear the same thing about KDS and nDAC -- and some of them have already posted (and yes -- my tongue was always my enemy).

Linn is using different digital pre-processing (based on Xilinx chip), different D/A chip (Wolfson) and different output filters so we can't compare the apples to oranges.

KDS for example uses the Lundhal output transformers which are usually met in tube stages.

What I can surely say is that upsampling/oversampling is not the only solution for reducing the extra energy at highs. There is a good number of DACs which operate in native mode with apodizing filters and do a wonderful job 

The best way to to judge on the Linn's efforts is to listen for the end result 

For the vinyl lovers this experience could be shocking (and financially devastating). 

Those who addicted to a more digital perfomance would prefer ADS over a more expensive KDS.

No surprise -- there are people who prefer CDX2/XPS over CDS3, so this is really a matter of taste.

But I'm sure Naim will come up with more analogue-sounding streamer very soon. 

You are wellcome to say "hello" to me after the first audition against nDAC 

Arthur

That would mean word length right?  Well it must do both.

Oversampling is a process where the ratio between output sampling frequency and input sampling frequency is an integer larger than 1. Upsampling is any kind of transformation providing an output sampling frequency that is higher than the input sampling frequency and not necessarily a ratio.

One difference between upsampling and oversampling is where in the process they occur. Upsamplers are usually found near the end of the digital process, just in front of the D/A converter, partly because they generate so much more data -- 8x upsampling, for example, creates eight times the data.

The audio industry standard is oversampling rate, which means a CD's sampling frequency is increased to 352.8kHz before it enters the digital-to-audio converter. This effectively moves the aliasing frequencies to values near 300kHz, much higher than the original 22.05kHz. Instead of having to filter out all sound within a couple of kHz (20kHz to 22.05kHz), the filters have a couple of hundred kHz with which to attenuate the aliasing frequencies.

The Naim DAC is better still oversamples by a ratio of 16, if I made any sense of what I read. 

NOS DACs should sound poor in comparison. 

This topic is far too complicated for a plain simple dude like me. I think they are different and I was suggesting that my Sonos and Meridian sounded similar because they both upsampled before passing their data to the oversampling Naim DAC, but I may have try to upsimplify things or do I mean oversimply. Perhaps somebody clever could explain it all for me.  

"I should have never have used the elixir and only stuck to the incense" - Studebacher Hoch. 

> But I'm sure Naim will come up with more analogue-sounding streamer very soon.

Oh no - you mean one that reintroduces tape hiss and adds a few pops and crackles;

I'm not sure I'd like that.

I prefer Naim's approach to create the most musical sounding devices they can.

I know it is so, 'cos I saw them doing it in their factory 

I hope they don't change that philosophy

If there is a better DAC than the Naim DAC + 555 PS when fed by a nice transport/streamer then it must be exceptional. 

Linn makes exceptionally nice record players. Sony made great cassette decks (not as go as a Nak, but ... ) - if the holy grail is an analogue sound then why go digital? 

No wonder I get confused 

All the best, Guy

PS - Never heard a KDS, heard ADS and wasn't keen - so no idea if I'd like a KDS as much as Naim DAC with 555PS. Probably end up liking both. 

No, I mean the closest reproduction of the original studio tape recording.

Meridian claims its digital upsampling makes it sound better than the original studio tape recording difficult to dispute as I've not heard the original studio tape recording. However, the Meridian sounds much better playing through a Naim DAC/555 PS so I guess that must sound ..... 

Hook, AMA, Guido,

I suspect, the reason we have different opinions (on nDAC) is not because we all hear things differently, but because we all make different compromises in different locations of our playback chain in order to make the CD format sound somehow acceptable.

Like AMA, nDAC+555PS has never become my preferred dac – in spite of its unsurpassable bass playback. I wouldn't call it "bright" as AMA does (nor would I describe the preferred playback as "analogue") but there has always been something disturbing in the rendering of the edges (especially in the midrange) for me. I tend to prefer my previous dac (which happens to be non-oversampling, but this is not the point). Interestingly, the disturbing aspect of nDAC+555PS for me almost diminishes with higher resolution files. This is exactly in line with AMA's comment.

Apparently, there has to be some kind of "velvet touch" somewhere on the chain to make the CD format enjoyable. Possibly, for some of us this is on our DAC, for others this is elsewhere on the chain.

One area of compromise on a DAC design seems to be btw bass playback and the rest of the frequency spectrum. I read from many sources, that it is difficult to get this both equally good. Both AMA and I acknowledge that nDAC has the most compelling bass playback (both punchy and tight-highly resolved); in fact AMA writes his preferred DAC is inferior in this respect. So, all comes down to making different compromises, imho.

asyl, very accurate story.

I recently migrated to Kharma Exquisite Midi speakers with diamond tweeter and it smoothed down on highs (comparing to ceramic-tweeter on Katana).
But to my great surprise this widened up the gap between "edgy" character of nDAC and silky-smooth KDS1.
I completely migrated to KDS1 and left nDAC/555PS for the second system but I do acknowledge the potential of 555PS for future Naim streamer (both in bass line and openness) and will carefully track the Naim progress.

AMA, good luck with your new Kharma!

How difficult was the set-up of KDS? From what I understand from its website, it doesn't seem as straightforward as the NDX. NDX was a charm: you just plug it in and it identifies all servers on the network and ready to go in a minute!

Second question: will you have a chance to compare KDS with NDX+555PS? NDX has this "silky-smooth" character on redbook, which you seem to appreciate very much.

asyl, Kharma Exquisite series is my all-time reference. I was contemplating between bigger "Classic" (called "Reference" before) and smaller "Midi" but finally set down for Midi to fit a moderate size of my room.

The performance is simply amazing. It's like another planet.

Setting up KDS is absolutely no issue.
If you have uPnP server running on your netwroks it will find it and hook it on.
Otherwise you need to plug KDS in the router and connect the same router to PC with music library and Kinsky Desktop software. If router is wireless then you can operate KDS with iPad. No issues in setup at all.
It just works.

Unfortunately I have no access to NDX but I do believe it may have a more "analogue" presentation than nDAC. I remember I owned Naim CD5X player which was more "analogue" sounding to my taste than more expens

Hi, Simon. I would never disparage the nDAC/555PS which I still own and love and give it a 24/7 use.

I can say that nDAC/555PS could easily be my reference source for years. 

But it does not change the fact that it has a little more "digitalis" character than KDS to my ears.

And KDS is still more "digitalis" than LP12 (at least on Red Books).

Out of the all sources the LP12 gives me the best sense of a "real stage performance", though I do appreciate what some other turntables do. Meanwhile LP12 can (and does) easily fall short on some synthetic music, for example.

I also did a lot of experiments with various transports on nDAC and though they have a very noticeable impact on its performance they don't change the "edgy" character of nDAC. I also changed a good number of IC and powercords but these all change the sound in a different area.

Both KDS and nDAC/555PS are top-notch performers and here we talk more about "touch" of emotions and "involvement" into a music rather than "A is better than B".

One can say that this "digitalis" is in fact a "Naim House sound" and it will not change in years.

I doubt it. I think the new Naim NDS will be more of a "analogue" and "live" performer comparing to NDX/nDAC combo. I gathered this feeling from a history and hierarchy of Naim's CD players