Mike,

You pointed to your favourite website. I had the good grace to look at it.

I summarised an article from it for you.

yawn.........

Cheers

Don

Tom

Again, just an initial look at your link.......the first article seems to concentrate on recent relative changes in pay between private and public sector workers.

However, it eventually (yawn yawn) gets down to mentioning a couple of figures.....avg public sector pay £453 per week v avg private sector pay £447 per week.

Now I appreciate that these differences aren't great but............it doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out that the public sector figure is bigger than the private sector one.

Cheers

Don

Wake up Mike. It was your article and subsequently Tom's article, both supposedly supporting your point of view. I merely pointed out they don't. If anything, Tom's actually contradicts your point of view.

Cheers

Don

Mike, can you explain what you mean by "don't just believe what you are told" ?

Cheers

Don

I've no idea which article you're reading but if you read the one I linked to you'll see:

"

It is extremely difficult to compare jobs across the public / private sector divide, not least because so many jobs exist only in one or the other sector.  However, one way of comparing pay and roles is by looking at the formal qualifications of employees. Nigel Stanley from the TUC has researched this issue and found the following:-

-          Public sector graduates are paid 3.4 per cent less than in the private sector.  

-          Public sector workers with higher education qualifications short of a degree are paid 6.2 per cent less than in the private sector.  

-          Public sector workers with A levels are paid the same as in the private sector.  

-          Public sector workers with lower skills get paid more than in the private sector.

"

Tom,

I just followed your link, perhaps you might do the same ?

Cheers

Don

And did you bother reading the rest of the article? Did you bother reading the quote in my previous post? Did you bother reading past the first paragraph of the link?

You're now wasting my time I'm afraid and if you want to continue believing the public sector pays better than the private you're welcome to carry on in your own deluded little world.

Tom,

Post sensible, meaningful interpretations and appropriate links so that when they are opened up by others, they re-inforce your point of view.

I followed your link. The first page and first link didn't support your point of view. Quite the opposite. Do you really expect people to persevere ? I thought not.

I am disappointed to note that you have been reduced, like others, to personal abuse. Credibility drops remarkable quickly under these circumstances.

Cheers

Don

In an attempt to move this thread onwards can I suggest a factor Private vs Public debate.

As a public sector worker (OK, slightly more complex than that but it will do) I feel that I was trained by the state, to work in a state funded organisation, to deliver equitable care to the population. I don't have a corporate loyalty, I do feel (quite happily) a sense of duty and reponsibility. This extends to my views on industrial action; it could only ever harm my community and not my 'boss' so appears irrelevant at best (and immoral at worst).

What I do feel, and maybe other public sector workers feel too, is a responsibility of the state to provide due compensation for the way I work; I expect to be rewarded for good performance and to receive a pension that respects my years of service. When the government rejigs public sector provision I suspect this is the reason it feels 'different' and causes so much bad feeling. For me it is not really about the money, but about trust and the covenant between the state and its servants. Now what level is considered fair and reasonable can be debated endlessly, and the responsibility of all state workers to accept a share of financial pain is also clear, but it should be done transparently, without political points scoring and it should endure when agreement is reached, not be re-written when a new broom sweeps to power in the absence of genuine reasons.

Bruce

Mike

My thoughts on strike action really relate to my specific profession.

Bruce

Hello Tom,

I have read the article and some of the links it references.

Given that the article is written by a UNISON officer it seems to me reasonable to assume some bias in favour of the Public Sector argument.

However, I found more than a little bias, to the extent where it quotes several of the references out of context.

For example it quotes the Bristol Study as its support for the fact that Public Sector workers do more unpaid overtime than Private sector workers. But the study is much narrower than this "Headline" statement using unpaid overtime as a in indicator of  ‘pro-social behaviour’, that they themselves found is not present in all parts of the public sector.

However, the best anomaly I have found so far was in the "Bad Science" reference used to dispel the myth that public sector pay was recently outstripping private sector pay, where it clearly states

"Using the hourly figures, you can see that public sector median pay has been higher than private sector hourly pay for years. If you go to the “Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings” data on the ONS website which the Times used, you can see for yourself. It was £7.98 vs £6.72 in 1997 under the previous government, a difference of almost 20%, and £8.56 vs £7.32 in 1999. "

I'm sure there are failings in this selection of "Facts", But remember all facts can be presented in a way that changes the information they are intended to communicate,

regards

      Paul.

Mike, you really are tedious in continuing to make unjustified presumptions.

Tom posted a link. The first couple of pages didn't support his point of view. I merely highlighted this fact. It really is simple to understand - PoV is that avg Private sector pay is greater than Public sector. Evidence ? follow this link. Result ? link clearly states opposite.DoH!!

Where have I stated that the subject is black and white? You are completely unjustified in stating that I don't wish to engage in anything too nuanced - you aren't exactly a fountain of knowledge. As I say, you really are rather tedious.is your pointles sniping.

If someone on here uses specific (and particularly trivial) detail to promote their point of view, I have little choice other than to point out the triviality of the detail eg £4.47 ph v £4.53 ph (or whatever).

I revitalised this thread by drawing peoples' attention to the Channel 3 programme. I considered others might like to be aware of it and draw their own conclusions. You appear determined to instruct us all as to what our conclusions must be.

Try not to be too dogmatic in advising others what my thoughts and beliefs are, or my PoV. Just stick to promoting your own view and supporting evidence.

Cheers

Don.  

Bruce,

I have worked for both the Government and the private sector (*). Your post could be writen with either "public sector" or "private sector". Your sense of moral values and entitlements is shared by members of both communities, probably in equal measure IMHO. They depend almost entirely on the individual.

I feel equally justified as you in arguing that a deal made a few years ago must be honoured today. And i'm certain that many bankers (just for the sake of argument) feel likewise.

But circumstances can (and have) changed. The government has explained this, or at least tried to explain things. Public sector workers might not like the explanation and the government might do better with their explanations. And there is more to it than simply whether final salary pensions can be afforded by the public purse - a bit like whether banks can afford to pay large bonuses.

Cheers

Don

(*) Yes, my pension arrangements are a mixture of public and private schemes. I shall refrain from using my own details as proof of any argument. 

Mike ?

Cheers

Don

I'd assumed that comparisons would be like with like but apparently Don doesn't think that's necessary. In Don's world an NHS surgeon earning more than the barman in your local is proof that public sector salaries are higher than private.

If this wasn't such a polite civilised board I'd reckon he was doing a bit of trolling. Wouldn't be the first time.

But please allow me to share my own experiences here. Twenty-two years ago, a year after returning from a very productive three year spell in California, I was made redundant from my job in technical management with what was then one of the largest computer corporations in the world. Two years later, when I finally managed to get back to proper work. albeit in the public sector, I gratefully accepted a thirty percent pay cut even though the new job was of a comparable technical and management standing. I have not had a pay rise in the past four years and probably won't get any sort of increase for at least a couple years. I see members of my team, educated to graduate and HND level, all with several years experience, struggling to break through the 20k barrier. So please don't dare tell me how well paid the public sector is.