ND5XS vs nDAC
Posted by: Lightkeeper on 02 January 2012
Hi,
just interested did anyone compared ND5XS and Naim DAC regarding sound quality?
thanks,
oz.
Hi Simon, thanks for your advize. Really doubting here wheher to go the Mac Mini/nDac route or start with the ND5XS. Budgets are similar so my choice will be on sound quality combined with user-comfort. I am now trying to get both pieces at home to test and compare. It will be important to make my choice based on the bigger picture being my current systems around XS series and the fact that this system will last for quite some years, so the new nDac/ND5 should be "balanced" to the things I already own. For me this is difficult to explain in English, but I might be a bit afraid that the nDac is too good causing me to have to upgrade again to get everything in balance. I 've read quite some threads lately on this forum on people who lost fun or were disappointed in their nDac. Again, there is only one solution to my above point and that is to get the equipment here in my house and listen to it (prpbably one thing I shouldn't do is combine the ND5 and nDac in the set-up which will make me crazy 
).
User-comfort is the other parameter for my choice. I am interested in your good comments on the Naim iPad software. I like to test it on my iPad, but downloading it without being able to "activate" wouldn't do it. My music is on for quite some hours a day and I switch a lot between Artists and Albums. The current iPeng (iPad app for SqueezeBox Touch) app that I use now, looks ok, but is slow and lacks some basic filterings. Ripping, organizing and grouping of my LossLess files is all done via iTunes on my computer. I like iTunes a lot and thus eager to use something like Remote on the iPad. One of the things that happens now, is that in iTunes the Artists are organized very well, but in iPeng they are organized less. This is especially when I changed the orginal Artis/Album in iTunes to something else. I think the folder structure of the physical data in that case is NOT changed. iPeng (and probably other apps like the Naim ones) base on that physical folder structure. In iTunes that's all solved with the metadata I put in, but in iPeng it isn't. Another thing is the grouping and rates in iTunes that are important to me. They are not (or limited) available in the iPeng app.
Any thoughts on how I could test the nStream app ?
Cheers,
Iver
I have plaid with them plus a XPS2 and a XP5XS during holidays.
Sources were a CD5XS digital out, USB keys with 16\44 and 24\96, Qute digital out, BD player PCM out.
Here are my bulky comments:
ND5XS vs N-DAC no comparison.
But the combo is fantastic.
The XP5XS is a no brainer on the ND5, when you have tried it you can't come back to the bare ND5. I still have to compare ND5 + XP5 to a NDX, but IIRC, quite close.
XP5XS brings certain sweetness to the DAC and some more details. Worth it.
Even with an XPS on the ND5, IMO, the bare DAC slightly win in all departments.
Don't get me wrong the ND5 is very good as a DAC and can do things the nDAC can't.
On the DAC the ND5 win against the Qute in streaming and in digital pass through: more details, better timing, much better soundstage.
Interesting finding with the combo (ND5 + DAC) adding a XP5XS to the ND5 start to makes a difference when the DAC is XPSed. I have not heard any change with a bare DAC. So the power supply upgrade to the ND5XS has an effect on the digital output. I have to try further to analyse the effect and I will try to do the same tests with a NDX.
IMO starting with an ND5XS, the next upgrade is (depending on funds) an XP5SX or a DAC. Yes XPS bring very good things to the ND5, but a DAC will bring more to it for less money. Then an XPS will go to the DAC.
I have started the dance, I am waiting for you own findings.
Warning: All opinions are my own, resulting from tests in my room, after my own glass of wine, and with brand new units (except the DAC), your own tests will probably turn the opposite. 
I really like this topic
I've also experimented a lot with the NDac and feeding it with lots of music. I experienced the following:
- The bare DAC is a beautiful machine but is also dependent on the source feeding it and the cables used for this.
- What a lot of people forget is also the file and ripping method. There are a lot of Apple fans here and they use iTunes for ripping in ALAC. But in my opinion this is really inferior to FLAC or WAV with a good accurate ripping engine. So before spending a lot of source money ... make sure you invest in proper ripping software and file format because you will do this only once!!!
- A sonos worked fine but it needed a good digital interlink. The naim one was OK but changing it to an audioquest eagle eye really opened it up. It was not a small step but a really large improvement (like changing to a Hiline!)
- Then swapped the sonos for a MDS (since the ND5XS wasn't available at that time). Once again another really big improvement. Much more detail, soundstage and depth.
- Than experimenting with additional power supply and once again a major step.
Only problem (IMHO) was that with all the extra boxes the budget also increased enormously. Some people here say that the DAC with 555PS and NDX with XPS powersupply sounds very good. But than were talking about a 15k+euro solution for a source ... well it better should sounds good than (were already reached KDS level).
I did not win the lottery this year so I have to save some more, but I'm also interested in the original topic question.
BTW .. I swapped all my kit for a superuniti (for now ) and have to say ... it is really good! The amp section is in my opinion better (for my taste) than my 202/200 capped and all. The streamer is also good, but it can't reach the Dac level. But the nice thing of this combo is that it's just right. It all makes sense (if you understand me). Music is flowing out of it.
Last ... I yesterday upgraded my NAS and installed a new version of Twonkey Media. And once again a MAJOR jump in SQ. So you see ... the streaming era is just beginning. I do not understand this but love it at this moment ...
Final conclusion: Do not forget that NAIM gear makes music alive. Whether it is a CD5i or a 555 or a NDX fully buffed. That is the beauty of this make. So whatever you have ENJOY !!!
In my opinion it isn't only the file but also the ripping method. When I rip a disk using iTunes it just takes about one minute. If the computer encounters errors it just goes over them. When using bit-perfect software it already becomes better (for example XLD on the Mac or EAC on Windows machines). I think that's why Naim developed their own ripping engine used in the HDX and the Serve models.
Since it all starts with the file used I think this is one of the elements in the entire chain and should not be compromised. It's a shame spending so much money with a crappy source.
Maybe there's an expert who has the technical details, but I did hear the difference between an iTunes rip, an XLD rip and a Naim rip (or is it all in the head 
)
I tried EAC. I found that on mint condition CDs it made just as fine a rip as iTunnes, and on certain discs with known faults it simply hung. iTunes rescued several very rare discs that then replayed perfectly from the Hard Drive even though the discs in question would not play in a CDS 2 and EAC failed to rip them. At that point I gave up on EAC.
I find that the quality of replay using iTunes is often notably finer than direct CD replay, so I am content!
I am not saying that there may not finer methods, but rather that it not only works, but that iTunes is an excellent tool for the job, and it's free!
ATB from George
PS: Bit perfect rips have been achieved and measured in a variety of methods including iTunes. I guess there may be better bit perfect rips than others of course!
quote::@Rudy, think your nDac is sold; it is not on the website anymore, so I have to search for another one.I still know one for sale...
quote:I might be a bit afraid that the nDac is too good causing me to have to upgrade again to get everything in balance. I 've read quite some threads lately on this forum on people who lost fun or were disappointed in their nDac.
There's no mistaking that the SB Touch sounds better through the ndac .
More natural, a bit more body, more depth and easier to follow details.
Still, I feel the difference is a bit small, considering the huge price-difference.
( € 230,- vs € 2750,- ).
I do think that the ndac sounds best with wav-files on a stick.
If the ndac had the option of showing the USB-sticks content, on an Ipod/pad I'd be tempted to keep it.
That made me think... I love the option to simply play music stored on a USB stick.
That way I could easily make some genre, album favorites stored on several sticks
The ND5XS has the advantage over the ndac in that music stored on a usb-stick doesn't have to be wav-files (please, correct me if I'm wrong!), that the concent of the stick can be controlled by an Ipod/pad, and finally that all the track info can be seen on the same Ipod/pad as well.
It would also mean less cable spaghetti, and thefor easier/better cable dressing.
ND5xs: (1 powerchord, 1 interconnect)
SB-Touch + ndac: (2 powerchords, ext.psu for SBT, 2 interconnects)
I don't know to what degree good cable dressing can/wil improve sonic results.
To be honest I find it almost impossible to do some proper cable dressing, due the the many, long cables, all stuffed in a small space, and the stiffness of naca5 isn't quite helping either.
hmm,...so,..trading in my ndac for the nd5xs does get a bit more tempting...
Sonically the ndac should sound better, but then again... (if streamers didn't excist yet) I could/would still be very happy with the sound of my good 'old' CD5i-2.
George is completely right - the mathematics prove this. I thought the debate about magic rippers that rip better than perfect had long since completed - have a search and you'll see how we concluded a rip is a rip is a rip for lossless formats.
iTunes is fine for ripping and the only time it falls short is on damaged CDs and HDCD. Whether it fares worse on a damaged CD is opinion. On HDCD, it does a faithful rip whereas dBPowerAmp decodes the HDCD (as I understand it); this means with iTunes you need a HDCD aware DAC, with dBPowerAmp the NAim DAC would realise the full potential of the HDCD even though it is not HDCD aware. An HDCD will still sound fine ripped with iTunes and played back through a Naim DAC, you just won'r realise the full potential of the HDCD. (I have very few HDCDs).
Unless the disc is damaged the ripping software (assuming it realises perfect rips) is irrelevant, the PCM in the files produced is 100% identical in ALAC, FLAC, WAV and AIFF. This is not an opinion, it is fact for the 10 files I have tested. Every PCM bit was the same. I tried this with files supplied to me using a Naim Ripper and EAC against by own files ripped with CD Paranoia, iTunes and XLD Secure Rip. Not one single bit was different in any of the rips. The metadata can vary.
As I can produce perfect rips with iTunes then software that produces different results must be wrong. However, I'm convinced that Naim et al get it right and the rips they produce are every bit as good as iTunes. As mentioned, dBPowerAmp is an exception in that it can do clever things with HDCD and I can see an advantage of using this for such discs.
To me, and this bit is subjective, ALAC, FLAC, WAV and AIFF sound the same. I agree that extracting the PCM from them requires different amounts of processing power, but it is a very small difference. I cannot detect this difference sonically in my system.
I've always maintained that playing the same CD twice on a standard CDP may produce subjective differences so I don't, for one moment, doubt people are hearing difference. I just advocate that these are not down to how the original rip was done (unless there is an error in the rip). My assertion is two identical data streams sound the same. Remember in the Naim DAC, the data go into the on-board buffer and from there to the DAC (a virtual transport). How it got to the buffer is irrelevant (assuming a well managed buffer, which is the case with a Mac Mini feeding the DAC). That said, I can't detect sound quality difference with the UQ DAC, but using my own innate ability to hear differences is far from scientific and others may hear it differently.
I believe sound differences are possible from RFI, EMI and other electrical effects, which is why I prefer a good quality optical cable to a coaxial one. Using a USB stick also eliminates lots of things and provides a very pure way of providing data to the player/renderer within the Naim DAC, which seems to be a very good one. The internal player then feeds the buffer, which feeds the DAC, which is ideal. Shame about the user interface. Using USB is different from using an iPod, as the iPod renders, not the Naim player within the DAC.
Thinking of ripping like using a calculator or computer - 2+3=5 whether on a cheap calculator or a £1,000,000 super computer. You can't make the super computer provide a better answer no matter how hard you try . That said the expensive one still gets it 100% right so if you are lucky enough to have it then use it ......
All the best, Guy