Network setup and SQ

Fill your boots mate, if you believe it happened then it must be true. Its how most religions work anyhow.

I always wondered to myself why the sound never gets worse in these scenarios.

What possible sound quality difference could "diffferent TCP/IP stacks' and 'TCP window sizes' make to an audio signal once the information has been passed through a dac?  

i'm not really sure what you mean by how hard the tcp/ip stack has to work either?  could you elaraborate?

If packets are dropped then you'll hear the audio break up and drop out, there will be no noticeable effect on sound quality. it's either on or off.

Also declaring a firmware upgrade on a storage device would have an audiable effect on sound quality is laughable. That is impossible.

Dear horse,

These topics were discussed not only in subjective audition criteria, but in technical detail not only in Naim forum but extensively in many technical forums. Before you call other's posts "laughable", I suggest you to question your reductionist viewpoint about digital audio.

Hello Simon,

Are you now saying that different servers (or NAS units) can sound different ? I refer to the "Lisetning to digital storage" thread, where the general opinion of responders was that these devices cannot make a difference.

Thanks,

Jan

According to a reputable Naim dealer in the UK who spoke to me while we were listening to an HDX, the quality of the ripping process (if from a CD), the speed of the NAS drive processor & RAM and the way that the digital "music" is served to a Naim DAC all apparently affect the sound quality.

The quality of the CD rip is self evident.  However, how and why the NAS drive speed and method of serving the digital signal to the dac affect sound quality is quite beyond me.  No idea.  So I trust a Naim dealer to answer those questions for me.

Yours most interested and yet ignorant,

FT

Hi FT,

You might be interested in HiFi Critic's evaluation of NAS devices, which I've summarized here :

https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...ent/8747224190249388

Cue Guido !

Jan

Dear Aysil,

I'm not really sure what a reductionist viewpoint about digital audio actually is?  would you mind elaborating? 

I would press your Naim dealer for some actual empirical evidence that the speed of any component in a device which is serving the file should have any inpact on the sound quality of a given stream.

Maybe it's due to the shape of my ears, but in A/B comparisons of identical tracks, I can consistently identify whether the file is being played from my UnitiServe harddisk or streamed by the UnitiServe from my LaCie NAS. Same files ; the files on the NAS being the backup of those on the Serve.

Go figure.

Jan

It could just down to you having a unique ability to differentiate between identical binary signals, but it's probably because you can see which one is plugged in.

Hello Jan - thanks for the cue. 

I think my views are very well document. I don't take HiFi Critic or Peter Belt or Russ Andrews that seriously - I looked them up in a well known guide and it said: mostly harmless. I do believe RFI/EMI can make audible differences and plugging in dodgy SMPS. The ripping process given it is accurate does NOT make any difference; anybody who says differently should apply for a job with HFC before the men in white coats arrive. I do not believe Juniper routers or switches sound better than Cisco or NetGear ones. I do not believe Western Digital discs sound better than Seagate or Hitachi ones. I do not believe Vortexboxes sound better than QNAP. I do believe Ipswich Town needs a better goalkeeper and centre half. I believe that for every drop of rain that falls a flower grows. 

Ah but you knew that .... 

Simon is referring to different things happening that can affect RFI/EMI and introduce noise.

This is entirely credible. 

All the best, Guy

(Next week is Bisodol Appreciation Week )

BTW introducing Beryllium in to the room does have a negative effect on SQ. 

Is the file being played from your US through S/PDIF? Perhaps the US S/PDIF is not that good (I have often heard this said) and is introducing more jitter. Answer: use a new Mac Mini 

Jan….. that’s interesting as I had a similar problem with my files until recently although I do not have a Naim ripping/streaming solution.

I have two NAS drives with identical files (copied from one NAS to the other); one NAS is running an UPnP server the other is not. I have been using the streamer’s remote to select files from the NAS directly and also selecting files with a computer to play on the streamer. It was these files that were not sounding quite up to par.

I had selected the files from the NAS running the UPnP server to be played via the computer using it’s own UPnP server instead of from the 2^nd NAS (not running a server) as I had intended. So, is your LaCie running an UPnP server? If it is, it may be worth turning off and see if you can still hear a difference.

I have no explanation as to why this setup should adversely affect the sound, but was quite noticeable. The sound was fine via the computer once I had switched NAS drives supplying the files.

Peter    

Dear Mr Horse

I find if I store documents on my Mac they always read better than when I load them from my NAS. Even if one is an exact copy of the other (I don't copy files with Mac Finder any longer, but use a very expensive Unix utility which does better copies). Admittedly I live in a parallel universe and am really quite mad. 

Seriously though I played a track from a cassette the other day and preferred it to a track played on my Mac Mini through my Naim DAC/555PS. The cassette was Abbey Road by The Beatles and the ripped track was Deck of Cards by Max Bygraves. This is surely a valid a test and proves cassette rules. 

All the best, Guy 

I’m certainly convinced Guy.

Peter

I bet the Naim has a better PSU than the LaCie (though not sure). If it does then mains pollution could be an answer. 

Peter's answer sounds reasonable. One device could be interfering with the other. 

Until somewhere in the late eighty (1985 to 1990), while standing anywhere beside a house (outside), I could heard if a TV was On or Off in that house.

It was not related to the speaker sound level which could have been on mute and it was not making any difference.  I could hear a very clear electric (or electronic???) buzz in my hears.

Of course my friends laughed at me when I did mention it.  I can’t tell you how many times they tested me on different location and houses, I never failed.  I was 100% accurate.

There might be a simple explanation for it, but I never heard about some else hearing the same buzz as I did.

So since then, with that experience of my own in mind, I’m always thinking that maybe it’s possible that sometime, someone hear what they claim.

P.S. Now at 41 with years of music with earbugs, I wouldn’t surprise if my ears are doing a worst job then most of the people.  But as long as I still enjoy listening to music, I consider myself lucky.

Thanks Peter for the pointer, I'll look into it. I really would like files to sound the same no matter where they reside or how they're delivered to the DAC. Life would be s o o o much simpler ; I mean it was firmly established years ago that all types of cassette tape sound the same. 

Jan

Hi Jan 

I do not have a US so haven't compared it to the the new Mac Mini. I was once about to buy a US as a player and that is when a Naim representative advised me it was not its intended use. The Mac Mini is every bit as good as the UQ so if you feel the UQ betters the US in terms of S/PDIF then it should outperform the US in this respect. Of course, the US has other features. 

Curiously, I have never seen Naim use the US as a player in a demo. I think this is a shame as the US could have been designed as a top notch CD transport with ripping to HD/NAS and UPnP serving. As such it would extend its appeal to folk like me. Oh and it would have let me import my own digital music files and edit metadata/artwork without the need to buy a Windows PC. 

Remember in all this discussion, I do not doubt you can hear differences. I have never doubted forum members can hear differences. My alarm is at hi-fi journals that try to explain the difference is dubious ways. HFW has starting doing this. 

When I lived in a semi-detached my neighbour had some appliance that affected my system whenever he switched them on. So I can well believe an active LaCie disk could have an effect. I doubt LaCie has paid great attention to some areas that Naim would cover without a second thought. 

All the best, Guy

Side note#2:

> I mean it was firmly established years ago that all types of cassette tape sound the same. 

Metal with Dolby S sound best to me provided Bias/EQ set accurately

FerriChrome were my least favourite. 

TDK and Maxell were my favourite brands, not keen on BASF. 

Of course, you can measure the frequency response from different brands, in different players with different processing and note the differences. 

I've yet to see anybody do this with digital players. You can measure jitter, noise and accuracy. I can capture the bits that come out of my UQ and show they are the same whether from a Vortexbox or Mac Mini irrespective of format (ALAC = WAV = AIFF = FLAC). I do not have kit at home to measure the jitter or noise though, but I know a man that does ....