Decisions, Decisions. . .

Posted by: Richard Lord on 02 February 2012

Naim design some superb kit. But apart from the entry level stuff such as the Qute, once you begin to climb the ladder, it is assumed and expected you will progress to an analog preamp based system. Perhaps ending up with the 500 Classics series.  Beautiful stuff, but at an eye watering cost.

I bought my existing Northstar Essensio DAC in the hope that after the outstanding reviews that the UniQute has received, Naim would capitalise on this success and bring out a more upmarket version. One that had the same high quality and easily read display, the same high quality remote volume control which is easily readable from across the room, but with their nDAC quality DAC inside. The one that up samples sixteen times, that uses flash memory to buffer and virtually remove jitter. Surely it was a no-brainer to do this?  Apparently not. Instead they bring out ever more refined digital products that simply re-invent the wheel; so we see the DAC, NDX, ND5 XS and soon the NDS, I believe. Each able to be further upgraded by adding an external power supply. But not one is able to connect directly into a Naim power amp without a Naim analog preamp, which itself will benefit from the external power supply upgrade.  What appears absurd to me, is how wasteful this process is. Imagine the extra cost of adding an analog volume control of similar quality as the one in the preamps.  Trifling in comparison to adding the separate preamp and its associated power supply. 

Have Naim lost the plot?  Let us see, if you have the NDX (or whatever) streamer, its additional power supply, together with the nDAC and its additional power supply, a good quality preamp and its power supply, we are already up to six boxes and we have yet to add a power amp. Contrast that with say a professional quality DAC such as the Weiss DAC202. One box, it accepts digital PCM (via FireWire) from a computer and outputs analog directly to a power amp. One box versus six.

I am reminded of the recent news about Kodak.  Remember film cameras?  Kodak were synonymous with film, that was what made them rich and powerful.  Did you know they invented digital photography? But in fear of the prospect of losing their film sales buried it. Unfortunately for them, they were right. Digital photography did indeed ruin their film sales, but not through their actions, but their non action. Had they accepted the inevitable when they invented it, they might have been able to survive in business, who knows? But they bet the farm on digital staying buried, but it did not. It was taken up by their competitors. Result? They have had to file for Chapter 11 protection from their creditors.

I suggest a similar situation exists within Naim.  Obviously they did not invent digital audio, but they appear not to want to embrace digital as an independent system to integrate with their existing power amplifier base.  It would seem they are rightly fearful that a high quality Qute might not generate the same level of margin that they have enjoyed in the past from their analog preamps.  The digital side of the audiophile market works on tighter margins, just look at how much is being traded over the Net. Dealers are going out of business, all are finding trading conditions tough. But whether or not Naim do eventually bring out an up market Qute (and I certainly hope they will, sooner rather than later), the digital side of the audiophile industry will eventually dominate.

 

Meanwhile they are losing market share to their competitors. Just look at the number of companies now selling digital DACs of one sort or another. The Naim solution is a good one if you are prepared to spend shed loads of cash and accommodate six boxes of electronics, much of it redundant. Think of the redundant power supplies in the base units before the external supplies are added, think of the redundant engineering with all those metal cases, circuit boards, even DACs. All this is waste, utter waste. Future potential landfill.

There will always be a hard core of pure analog enthusiasts of course. Maybe Naim can survive on these enthusiasts alone. The CD is now virtually obsolescent and if not actually dead it is dying a slow steady death. More and more people are downloading music. This inevitably means it arrives in digital form.

In my humble opinion, many would like to see a complete digital preamp from Naim, a more advanced device that offers the sonic advantages of the nDAC but having the ability to accept a Sp/Dif from a computer and then output directly into a Naim power amp.  Simplification, not a word much used by Naim.

I would be prepared to bet it would sell.  It may not generate the magin's they have enjoyed in past years, but those days have gone forever.  We cannot live on memories alone.  To survive a business must adapt. Today the world is very fast changing, too fast for many to keep up. 

Naim must adapt or die.

Richard

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

I bought my existing Northstar Essensio DAC in the hope that after the outstanding reviews that the UniQute has received, Naim would capitalise on this success and bring out a more upmarket version.


They did, It's called the SuperUniti 



Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

Instead they bring out ever more refined digital products that simply re-invent the wheel; so we see the DAC, NDX, ND5 XS and soon the NDS, I believe.


They're simply paralleling (is that a verb?) the line of CD players, for those who are into streaming.  Along with power supply upgrades. The strategy has certainly worked for the CD players.

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

In my humble opinion, many would like to see a complete digital preamp from Naim, a more advanced device that offers the sonic advantages of the nDAC but having the ability to accept a Sp/Dif from a computer and then output directly into a Naim power amp.  Simplification, not a word much used by Naim.


The many include me. I've just received the Audiolab M-DAC (digital preamp + DAC) for review and after two hours with it, I'm in awe at what's on offer for a mere $899 Canadian dollars. A truly stunning product that is nipping at my nDAC's heels. The digital preamp is a work of art, not merely an afterthought.

 

If the past is any guide to Naim's plans, they'll wait and see - and fine tune the prototype - until they have something that offers significantly more music than the competition. But with the fast moving state of digital replay, the gaps seem to be getting much narrower than in the golden age of CD players.

 

Got to go ; more listening to do !

 

Jan

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Richard Lord
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:

I bought my existing Northstar Essensio DAC in the hope that after the outstanding reviews that the UniQute has received, Naim would capitalise on this success and bring out a more upmarket version.


They did, It's called the SuperUniti 



The SuperUniti is certainly a great upgrade from the Qute, but it is still very wasteful if you want it to be the front end of a digital system. A power amp can be added, of course, but once again there is this question of the sheer waste of a power amp.  Of course, if the SuperUniti is all you want. . . 

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by rich46

there is a point here, if you have the dac as a dig hub ,most will only want a two input pre amp. one for dac and the other for vinyl

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by PinkHamster

Richard, your words could have come from me. I simply cannot accept to buy equipment, which is by nature to be made redudant by mens of external power supplies and DACs.

This approach is simply ridiculous. "You would like to buy a Naim, Sir? They are truely exceptional products at just as much exceptional prices. Please also be informed that the manufacturer doesn't really believe in his own products. But we also have the remedy on offer ....".    Well, just great!!!

 

And I am truely surprised that they got away with it so far ... just read what kind of equipment people on this forum are sporting ....

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Justin9960

Richard, your post totally sums up my own feelings on Naim at the moment. I am very much drawn to Naim products, and have had Naim systems for the last 25 years. When I was looking at replacing my previous system, I sat for literally hours, piecing together my next Naim system. NDX, and upgrade with the DAC...i but hold on, then I've wasted a whole load of cash, not using the DAC in the NDX, that I've paid good money for. The same with power supplies, an improvement yes, but also a huge waste.

After hours of contemplating, and writing an email to Paul Stephenson, I just could have so much duplication of components, knowing that half weren't going to used. In the end I went out and bought a Weiss DAC 202. A very nice sounding dac (not necessarily better than the Naim DAC that I had owned) but the same piece of equipment doubles as a very good headphone amplifier with my HD800's, and at the moment is a very good Pre amp to the Adam Audio Gamma speakers I have on demo.

 

I am not writing this to rubbish Naim, I like everything about buying Naim, the sound, the low deprieciation, the peace of mind, looks, etc, etc. I was really dissapointed to have to look elsewhere, to not get the waste in unused electronics. I even have a great dealer in Signals, and find this forum so interesting, visiting every day.

 

I just wish that I had a Naim system in my lounge that didn't need so many boxes. I think the only product I would buy at the moment would be a SuperUniti!

 

regards to all, and thanks Naim for the great forum.

 

Justin

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Bert Schurink
Very interesting post with interesting thoughts. I would assume that the right approach would be to ensure that Naim develops two core lines: 1. The one box approach. A DAC/pre-amp/streaming device which also can be the center for your AV channels. Combined with the existing seperated power amps. 2. The existing range focussed on no compromises with the multiple upgrading options. The upgrading options still form a very attractive option for all people who can't make it happen one step or can't yet appreciate the benefits of the higher end products. In this way two groups of customers would be served well.
Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Noogle

Richard -

I'm sure you know better than I, but isn't there a potential sound quality improvement from having the DAC and pre-amp in separate boxes with separate power supplies?  I would have thought that this configuration would better isolate the digital noise emanating from the front-end of the DAC from the pre-amp?

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by PinkHamster

why not offer it in this way in the first place then? this would make sense and would also be appreciated, I am sure.

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Don Atkinson

Richard,

 

Have you completed the Naim Survey ?

 

It seems to me that Naim are at a crossroads and wondering which direction to take. I imagine that Focal/Naim are trying to decide where next to invest in R&D and that Focal are looking for something more tangible than sentiment on which to base their decisions.

 

I am more interested these days in AV, but still want to get good music from existing LPs and CDs but without spending a fortune on upgrades. Naim seem to be looking at digital downloads and streaming as their future direction for music source and I don't see any plans for AV or amplifier development at present.

 

Cheers

 

Don

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Geoff P

I was prompted to go to the Linn DS range sometime ago for the same reasons. I was sitting there with a 500 series analog system wondering why I couldn't just get a Naim box which connected to my network and had just a streamer / DAC inside it to give me an analog out for the 552. Why on earth would I want pre-amps or power amps or an SPDIF conversion if the streamer could do what the Linn DS's do straight off a Network cable. 

This was before Naim had a network attachable box, but even when it arrived it was really as an add on to the nDAC with a superfluous DAC in it if you wanted really good audio out.

 

After switching to Linn I have progressed from an Akurate to a Klimax and have superb audio off my network in one box. In the process I discovered the Linn range have digital volume controls which allow their DS series to be bolted straight onto a power amp and now do the DSM versions which include a high quality pre amp if people so want for bolting onto a power amp of choice and in addition taking multiple audio signals in on HDMI as well as the standard network connected DAC function. Naim does nothing like this in two boxes ( head unit and PS in their vision) let alone one.

 

I wish Naim well in Digital music but feel they are loosing the plot.

 

regards

Geoff

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by J.N.

I've been a staunch Naim supporter since 1981, and love my 500 series system to bits. A CD555 and 'The Scottish Gramophone' provide me with immense musical pleasure and satisfaction.

 

I've been wanting to 'scratch the streaming itch' for some time, and have been put off the Naim streaming solutions due to cost, complexity, clunky interfaces, apps, and regular reports of unreliability. A MacMini simply USB connected to a good DAC makes a lot more sense to me.

 

As Naimees we like to follow the true path if possible, but like others here, I can't get my head (or wallet) around Naim's digital/streaming strategy and products. I've just installed a MacMini and an M2Tech 'Young' DAC. I'm using the excellent free 'BitPerfect' app (recently upgraded to v 1.0) which integrates seamlessly with iTunes, and is invisible for operable purposes.

 

Download the free Apple 'Remote' app onto the iPad and Robert is your mother's brother!

 

It sounds very good indeed to me, for relatively sensible financial outlay.

 

 

 

The number on the front is how old the DAC feels at the time.

 

This post is intended as constructive criticism to make Naim aware of what some of their customers want.

 

John.

 

PS. Yes; of course a MacMini sounds better on Fraim!

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by George Fredrik

Dear Richard,

 

Like JN, I have kept it simple, and you heard it - if not sounding as well as it does today - last autumn.

 

Of course mine is really much more budget than JN's, but the functionality is exactly the same: Computer,USB connection to DAC, analogue signal to amplifier. I wish Naim would make a true USB version of the Naim DAC, so that I could use my iTunes PC directly onto it. Simple, and totally reliable, and as you know the iTunes user interface is a work of genius in its ease of use!

 

The Nait is really blooming, and the old ESLs are singing like only great speakers can when well driven.

 

KISS is a sensible idea.

 

ATB from George

 

 

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Richard Lord
Originally Posted by Noogle:
Richard -
I'm sure you know better than I, but isn't there a potential sound quality improvement from having the DAC and pre-amp in separate boxes with separate power supplies?  I would have thought that this configuration would better isolate the digital noise emanating from the front-end of the DAC from the pre-amp?
If you mean a preamp in the old vinyl sense of a MC amplifier stage, yes, most definitely.  But surely a dedicated MC enthusiast would already have a Stageline or Superline anyway.  These will output at line level.  Remember, the DAC must by definition be handling analog.  My suggestion is only that it incorporates a volume control.  Preferably with a high quality display to enable the listener to see what he is doing, changing inputs, altering volume.
Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
Originally Posted by Richard Lord:
 
My suggestion is only that it incorporates a volume control.  Preferably with a high quality display to enable the listener to see what he is doing, changing inputs, altering volume.

 

Like this, perhaps ? You also get a top-notch headphone amp.

 

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Richard Lord
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:

In my humble opinion, many would like to see a complete digital preamp from Naim, a more advanced device that offers the sonic advantages of the nDAC but having the ability to accept a Sp/Dif from a computer and then output directly into a Naim power amp.  Simplification, not a word much used by Naim.


The many include me. I've just received the Audiolab M-DAC (digital preamp + DAC) for review and after two hours with it, I'm in awe at what's on offer for a mere $899 Canadian dollars. A truly stunning product that is nipping at my nDAC's heels. The digital preamp is a work of art, not merely an afterthought.

 

If the past is any guide to Naim's plans, they'll wait and see - and fine tune the prototype - until they have something that offers significantly more music than the competition. But with the fast moving state of digital replay, the gaps seem to be getting much narrower than in the golden age of CD players.

 

Got to go ; more listening to do !

 

Jan

 

If I were somebody with real influence at Naim, I would be truly frightened by your post.  Nothing I have said above comes close. I was predicting a possible future scenario, you are confirming it is already happening.  

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by PinkHamster

Gentlemen, ALL of our precious Naim, Linn and whatever players, be they CD players or streamers, have perfectly working on-board DACs, which most probably produce less jitter, than any S/PDIF connection to an external DAC will incurr. An external DAC only makes sense for inferior audio players and computers. 

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Guido Fawkes
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:

I bought my existing Northstar Essensio DAC in the hope that after the outstanding reviews that the UniQute has received, Naim would capitalise on this success and bring out a more upmarket version.


They did, It's called the SuperUniti 



+1

 

> Contrast that with say a professional quality DAC such as the Weiss DAC202. One box, it accepts digital PCM (via FireWire) from a computer and outputs analog directly to a power amp. One box versus six.


Sorry Richard but to my little ears the Weiss 202 isn't in the same league as DACs by Naim, Chord and BAD Alpha. It is as, you say Professional, more for analysing music than enjoying it. I have heard a Weiss 202 directly against the BAD Alpha using a Meridian G08.2 and the Alpha is something else (no contest Alpha wins hands down) - a friend has a small studio and had both. He used the Weiss for analysis and the Alpha for enjoyment and I could understand why. Being fair to the Weiss, it exhibits the type of SQ that doesn't appeal to me; I'm not keen on the analytical sound that others may well enjoy. Nothing will please everybody. You may remember my similar reaction to the Lavry. 


If you have Ethernet available in your listening room then you can have a superb one-box system (+ speakers) from Naim and I have not heard anything else to rival it. As Jan says, it is called the SuperUniti. All you need is a Vortexbox somewhere on your network (spare room, office, kitchen, cupboard, garage) and you are there. If you don't have Ethernet then one little Mac Mini will suffice, just plug it in to the SU. 


So I'm a bit lost with your argument, Richard. I certainly don't think Naim has lost the plot


All the best, Guy


===================


PH - adding a Naim DAC to the CDX2-2 improves the sound dramatically; furthermore I added a Naim DAC/555PS to a superb Meridian G08.2 and once again it  improves the sound dramatically. The trick is to use a lower jitter transport and the Naim DAC will do its magic. Nothing precious about, it is just the way it is.  You are right most external DACs are not that great - but some do improve things and by a large margin.  


Of course, you don't need to add the Naim DAC or an external PSU. The UQ and SU demonstrate how Naim achieves great results in a simple package. Whether you want/need the extra is up to you. 


Even the entry level Naim system CD5i/Nait 5i/nSats makes a great sound, it just can be improved if and only if the listen feels the need to and has the money to spend. 


The NDS should bring the DAC and transport back together again, but we have to wait to see if this does deliver improved sound. 

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

Richard said :


If I were somebody with real influence at Naim, I would be truly frightened by your post.  Nothing I have said above comes close. I was predicting a possible future scenario, you are confirming it is already happening.

 

For further indication of where things are going, have a look at Dynaudio's new XEO range, where the amplifiers are inside the speakers. Signal passes wirelessly from a small transmitter ...

 

 

... to the speakers. Look Ma, no cables ! :

 

 

 

Another speaker manufacturer that I know well has an identical product in the works.

 

I'm sure that Naim-Focal R&D are on the case !

 

Regards,

 

Jan

 

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by George Fredrik

No electrostatics! Tut, tut! Still working with Kellogg's cones!

 

Oh dear, oh dear!

 

Latest technology wedded to steam-age loudspeakers!

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
Originally Posted by PinkHamster:

Gentlemen, ALL of our precious Naim, Linn and whatever players, be they CD players or streamers, have perfectly working on-board DACs, which most probably produce less jitter, than any S/PDIF connection to an external DAC will incurr. An external DAC only makes sense for inferior audio players and computers. 

The expression gross oversimplification comes to mind. Where's Simon ?

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
Originally Posted by George Fredrik:
steam-age loudspeakers!

Ooh, I like that. Can I use it in an article one day

 

ATB

 

Jan

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by George Fredrik

Sure you can. The coned speaker comes from the time "before" the fastest steam locomotives!

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 02 February 2012 by Richard Lord
Originally Posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:

Richard said :


If I were somebody with real influence at Naim, I would be truly frightened by your post.  Nothing I have said above comes close. I was predicting a possible future scenario, you are confirming it is already happening.

 

For further indication of where things are going, have a look at Dynaudio's new XEO range, where the amplifiers are inside the speakers. Signal passes wirelessly from a small transmitter ...

 

 

 

... to the speakers. Look Ma, no cables ! :

 

 

 

Another speaker manufacturer that I know well has an identical product in the works.

 

I'm sure that Naim-Focal R&D are on the case !

 

Regards,

 

Jan

 

 

I remember we experimented using Bluetooth technology to get the signal to an active sub. Worked great, but for some reason we never pursued it.  I had this idea of simplification.  Now where have I heard that word before . . . ?