Decisions, Decisions. . .

i suspect a digital pre amp is in the works.

Well after that revelation, I'm sure that Paul Stephenson has convened the top brass.

Richard,

You never pcked up  your Lavry DAC being faulty???

Ears are everything man.

So pinch of salt on your posts.

Stu.

Pertinent advice from a man who built and ran a very successful Hi-Fi related business should be taken seriously.

John.

Absolutely right. But I have never pretended I am a fully paid up member of the Golden Ear brigade. I am old, my hearing is nowhere near as good as once it was. Strangely, however, I can still obtain immense enjoyment from my music. It is also why I suggested further up this thread I would be satisfied with the XS level in Naim's system hierarchy.

So having admitted in several posts my ability to perceive SQ differences is limited, just why does this preclude me from offering an opinion on waste management?

Richard

I find it odd that "a man who built and ran a very successful Hi-Fi related business" is posting on Naim's forum preaching offering advice on how the company should be run.

Certainly a meeting with Naim HQ would be the more effective route ?

His advice may or may not be pertinent, but illuminating insights such as "Be prepared to adapt your products" and characterizations such as "moribund or steeped in their own mystique" certainly don't inspire me to take his words seriously, although they do have entertainment value.

In this and another thread, when practical advice is offered to him in reply to his concerns, it's just brushed off. One has to ask then why is he posting here, what is his true agenda ?

Hello Jan-Erik,

Richard (like me) has no axe to grind. We met as fellow customers at a Naim dealership, because of our shared passion for music and Naim Audio products. Again; like me, Richard has enormous respect and admiration for the company, and wishes to see them continue to manufacture excellent products and thrive.

We all have opinions on which products Naim should or should not be making. I think they've totally lost the plot with loudspeakers, but that's another juicy can of worms.

Enjoy the music.

John.

Yep, sort of like SU without the poweramp. But I already have a SuperNait, so the SU front-end isn't really much of a step up from that. I could just put a 250 or 300 with my SuperNait for the same effect. (My thoughts on the twonky co-called UPnP  streaming systems are stated elsewhere - not interested)

I'd like Naim (as opposed to another manufacturer) to make a digital pre-amp because I generally like Naim. Apart from my Mac Mini source I'm all Naim. But I am seriously wondering about this little Audiolab box feeding a 300 into my S600s. I bet it would be pretty sweet.

Naim entered the digital world by adding a DAC to an integrated (which I bought). An obvious next step would have been for them to do it to a pre-amp. But they didn't. They jumped to a stand-alone DAC, and to a plethora of one-box streaming/radio setups and now a range of twonky-players with clunky interfaces. They did everything I don't want. Yes, I could buy a nDAC/252/300 but that's just a step too far for me in terms of box count. Especially if I add a power supply to the nDAC.

The nice thing about leaving the computer-based storage and library control to others (like Apple) is that they could have focused exclusively on sound quality, rather than what, in my experience, is still-unreliable UPnP control software.

I am retired, I am no longer involved in the Hi Fi business except as a customer.  So why is it odd for me to participate in a Forum of a manufacturer whose products I have enormous respect for and whose products I own?  I see no dichotomy.  Why would Naim be interested in talking to me? 

I am the last person to wish to persuade you to take my words seriously. From previous posts you appear to be steeped in the "mystique" I was referring to. Good luck to you. There is no right or wrong here. You enjoy Naim and I assume get enormous enjoyment from listening to music through their products. I do the same.  Shall we agree to disagree?

What practical advice did I brush off? I may not agree with a suggestion, but I always give serious consideration to any advice if offered in good faith.

Richard

Winky, that is spot on!  I could not have expressed it more clearly myself.

It should now be obvious from several posters, that Naim have gone off track. We all agree we love their products. But I and several others just wish they would not try to re-invent the wheel.

Apple have enormous resources, so why try and duplicate their technology? Surely it would make sense and save money to concentrate on building on the success of Apple?  

I may investigate that Audiolab product. The trouble is, I am certain that if Naim put their mind to it, they would produce something even better. So I am hesitant to invest/waste my money on a product that might be made redundant should Naim produce a digital preamp similar to that model.  True it would cost more, but as I have said elsewhere, Naim is not about cost cutting. Naim is about producing the very best SQ anywhere, period

Let us pray they surprise us at Bristol.

Richard

Dear Richard,

Though some may not like to read it, I find your points are absolutely at one with my thoughts, particularly with respect to redundancy, and UPNP.

I hope that you will know that you are not the only person to think along the lines you have explained.

As it is, Naim do not actually make a Hard Drive digital, or streaming product that fits my needs, even if I could afford them.

I would never buy into redundancy, and would not want to get to the level of an NDS for example to avoid it. And if they never make a variant of the DAC that can be connected to a computer or MAC via something better than Tosloink or Coax, then I'll never have a Naim DAC, even though in time I might have been able to afford that.

Best wishes from George

Thank you, George for your support.

In another thread I mused on the possibility of my dumping my Qute together with my 250 and going for the utter simplicity of the SU. I am still considering that, but it would be far cheaper (less waste in depreciation that is) if I sold on my Qute and Northstar and go for the Audiolab M DAC.

Whether or not Naim could/will make a better one is a concern. But I could wait forever. Meanwhile life goes on and I demand simplicity. In fact, I would actually gain, as my Qute alone secondhand is worth more than the new cost of the Audiolab, plus I have the Northstar to sell as well.

I notice the Audiolab is available in black. An interesting scenario.

Richard

Hello Richard,
You may want to hold of a bit for the Audiolab MDAC. The one I have for review has just died after three days... I hate when that happens. Oh well, back to Naim. Not for the mystique, just the reliability.

ATB
Jan

The other problem is that it isn't an analogue pre-amp. If you have any analogue sources at all, you'll need a separate preamp or integrated.

Agreed Winky,

I've just emailed Richard with similar thoughts. MacMini, DAC of choice and an integrated amp is a nice simple solution if one wants to keep down the box count, but have control over the DAC.

A Nait XS or Rega Elicit perhaps.

John.

Well I have no analog inputs, or indeed any other input.  but if it lasted just three days. . . , well I am disappointed.  

I am not in a hurry.  Of course at that price I suppose something must give.  They are probably churned out on a production line like flies in Summer. But so are Apples's products.  I have not heard of problems with them.

I will just have to stick with Naim. 

Richard

My understanding is that Audiolab is now made in China. But that's no reason in itself to assume/expect poor quality. A sample size of one doesn't make a reputation (but can break one).

I've also been half-following the Audiolab M-DAC saga on the realm of the rosy salmon Hook. There do seem to have been problems but it seems to me they released it onto the market too soon.

In its favour, the design is very interesting and the designer is willing to go onto the forum and post very regularly and honestly. As Winky's posted above, the fact it's made in China is no reason for it to be unreliable and I still see it as having very good potential. 

Hi Hook,

It's far worse than you describe. In my 30+ years in occupational safety and health, I've never seen mass suicides in response to workplace conditions, but I've never practiced in China. Here's an article by Lijia Zhang of the Guardian (January 16th) describing conditions in the Foxconn factory.

Note : Audiolab products are not made at Foxconn.

Jan

***
Last Friday, a riot erupted outside an Apple store in Beijing. It was widely reported that the rioters were hopeful shoppers who, having waited for hours in the freezing cold for the latest iPhone, were so furious when the launch was delayed that they threw eggs at the shop and clashed with the police. It turns out that many were actually migrant workers, hired by "scalpers" who intended to sell the gadget, a status symbol, for a higher price on the black market.

Meanwhile, a protest of another kind was just ending in Wuhan, in central China's Hubei province, thanks to the intervention of its mayor. Up to 200 workers from the Microsoft Xbox production line of Foxconn Technology, also a major supplier of Apple, had staged a strike. They were not demanding sleek new gadgets, but simply decent pay in return for making them, and proper compensation if being transferred. To drive their point home, they had threatened to kill themselves by jumping off a building.

In 2010, a total of 18 of their colleagues in the Shenzhen campus of the Taiwan-owned company did attempt suicide ; 14 died. Some employees and labour organisations blamed a combination of factors for the workers' deaths: low wages, long working hours – sometimes up to 16 hours a day – and inhuman treatment. Workers at the campus, some claimed, were not even allowed to talk during working hours. Like many other similar factories, Foxconn, the world's largest electronics manufacture, is staffed mostly by nongmin gong (peasant workers) because they are cheap. These migrants often have no friends in the city.

I felt the pain of my fellow workers because I, too, slaved for 10 years at a factory and endured its strict rules. The restrictions at my state-owned factory, however, paled in comparison to those of cold-hearted capitalism. There is labour law that forbids a 16-hour working day, among other malpractices, but it is not forcefully implemented by the local authority. After all, the private or foreign-invested enterprises bring revenues.

I was very pleased to see the migrant workers beginning to resist. Shortly after Foxconn's suicides, workers from several Japanese-owned Honda factories revolted. They went on strike until their demands for better pay and working conditions were met. In chatrooms on the internet, several Honda workers argued that it would be better to put up a fight than to take one's life. Compared with their fathers, the young workers are savvy about the internet, better educated, more worldly and far more aware of the law and their rights.

Zhao Fengsheng, who has made a personal journey from a village boy in Hunan to a public intellectual in Beijing, is one of this new breed. When the 35-year-old left home to work in a nearby city, he first experienced discrimination against nongmin. He came to the conclusion that the problem is rooted in the system that separates nongmin from their urban cousins and deprives them of equal rights.

In 2007, after Zhao moved to Beijing, he started to attend lectures and made friends with academics and rights activists. Two years later, he launched the China Farmers' Association. Three days after he filed his application with the ministry of civil affairs, he was arrested, interrogated and his application was rejected. His organisation, now called a research centre, continues to send out articles to people on his mailing list. The list has grown from a few dozen to 500, the maximum on his email server.

"Generally, people become more rights conscious as the society progresses," Zhao said to me. "And nongmin are no exception." He is one of the rare voices representing the underprivileged farmers.
This year, there has been a wave of factory revolts across six provinces in China, according to Hong Kong-based . In Sichuan province, hundreds of workers stormed a courthouse in Shuangliu county as they were fighting for a case over unpaid wages. The labour unrest has been caused partly by rising inflation, which hit those at the bottom of society the hardest. With the traditional Chinese new year approaching, the migrant workers find it particularly difficult to cope with their daily grind.

Many protests were inspired by the Wukan incident. The village in southern China's Guangdong province grabbed headlines around the world after hundreds of its villagers staged well-organised protests to express their anger against the corrupt local officials and land seizure, and the conflicts escalated in the wake of an attempted crackdown by the local authority. The intensive standoff ended in late December, when top provincial leaders agreed to some of their demands.

I was relieved and delighted by the approach the authorities have taken in both the Wukan and Wuhan cases: they have clearly recognised nongmin's rising demands for rights and equality. But a soft approach alone isn't enough. I hope China's leaders will really listen to the farmers, opening up more channels for them to express their grievances, and allowing some kind of independent labour union or at least a collective bargaining mechanism to ease the conflicts. And ultimately, they'll have to grant the same rights to those who make gadgets such as the Xbox and iPhone as those who use them.

***