Network issues... Switch suggestions!

I would have thought that preferring to advise the use of unmanaged switches would be a decision based not around capability or performance issues, but rather that of customer support.......

Just like how many major ISP's refuse to furnish a customer with the users own credentials, in an attempt to force the use of their chosen pre-configured modem/router - cheaper and much easier support.

This is true - I know that $ky don't allow access to the basic login details for their routers.

Not really in our case though - it's just very easy to look at two notionally similar switches and say "well, that one says 'managed' so I guess it must be better - I'll buy that" when you really don't need to. I run a mixture of managed and unmanaged switches at home but a fairly general and safe "rule of thumb" is:

"If you don't know *EXACTLY* why you need a managed switch then you don't need a managed switch..."

Phil

This is very, very sound advice. You can seriously mess up your network with a managed switch and someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

As to requiring a managed switch - hmm. You don't require a managed switch you require a set of functionality. It's just that managed switches are developed for office installations so that Naim know they will have the required functionality on it. 

This is of course exactly right. A managed switch simply means its configurable. If you have a a simple vanilla home network, the chances are consumer oriented network devices that are NOT configurable that provide the most basic switching function will work well. However if you have a network that is resilient - or perhaps you have a work VPN VLAN and home VLAN then clearly an unmanaged switch is not going to cut it, or you have an advanced multiemedia network that needs to support IGMP snooping and and multicast forwarding groups ( multicast routing) )  and you will need a managed switch to allow you to configure it to work correctly in your network - but you will almost certainly then KNOW you require configurable or 'managed' equipment. How many domsetic installations requires that however? Probably less than 2%.

One caveat I would say, is some of the cheap consumer network equipment is APPALLING and stops simple network applications like music streaming from even working correctly - as we see on this forum from fustrated consumers. So the option of course is use a higher qulaity unmanaged product like Netgear or Linksys, (FWIW Cisco 2960 will work out of the box will reliably support streaming without need to configure or 'manage' it.)

Simon

If only it could be D...

My usual preferences in this sort of situation are for the NetGear ProSafe kit ... an 8 port 10/100 switch can be had for £35 (ish) from PC World and they've proven themselves over the years to be reliable.

Suprisingly (as I thought it would be garbage) Xyzel stuff has also proven itself to be pretty solid too.

LinkSys routers I used to avoid like the plague but they do seem to have got their act together over the last few years - I'm guessing that this is in no small part due to their "merger" with CISCO but is very welcome nontheless.

I don't want to mention any makes that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole just in case it upsets anyone.

Phil

Bart - thanks - I found another link describing Poopycock, but I felt discretion was the better part of valour.. but I guess the politest is here:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-pop1.htm

Simon

Phil like B*lk*n COUGH!

To be honest - probably less than that Simon.

Even people who work from home via VPNs (which is pretty common nowadays) wouldn't necessarily need such kit ...

It's quite fun seeing some of the knots people inadverently get themselves tied up in (and trying to figure out remotely what they've done) ... had a guy recently with multiple routers / wireless networks and DHCP servers on his home network which was quite a challenge to identify!

Yup - some freebie routers are downright appalling!

(For the record, a router that is given away free with a boroadband service by a broadband service provider and is not actually available for sale anywhere is *NOT* "worth £89 so must be good" ...)

You will not find a BT HomeHub / Virgin SuperHub / Sky Router doing anything other than basic gateway duties in *ANY* system that has been put in by any installer worth his salt when the stability of the system comes down to him. The simple fact is that installers want to put in systems and never have to visit them ever again to maintain them unless they're getting paid for it so they want their installs to be reliable - they don't want phonecalls at 9pm on an evening saying "My internet radio has gone down." and they certainly won't want to dare to suggest to the customer "Just reboot your router and you'll be fine".

For me - I stick to Draytek Vigor 28xx and 29xx series routers whenever I can ... never had one fail on me and have never needed to reboot mine.

Another "for the record" ... a "good" router is not one that has the latest wireless networking buzzword and claims half a mile of range - a good router is one that is stable and doesn't need to be constantly attended to.

Diverting a little from the "normal home needs" - perhaps think of networking a bit like high end HiFi - the best high end HiFi is separates and the best way to do networking is too ... if you have ADSL then *I* would always use a separate ADSL modem so that I can use whatever router I wish to sit between my network and the internet (my Virgin SuperHub is used as a dumb cablemodem only), similarly use a good wireless access point (I have a one bedroom flat and *NEEDED* two airport express to get coverage everywhere but only one Pakedge WAP-W3 gives me far better signal stability throughout the flat).

Phil

By the way - have you tried Tescos own brand "Raspberry and chocolate" popcorn ... ?

It's really good!!!!

Phil

I'm saying nothing ...

Phil

Please guys - lets all play nicely!

Gordon is a damn good dealer - I know that he looks after his customers well because I'm the guy that Gordon shouts at down the phone when there's a problem and many a bottle of Gaviscon has been downed by myself over the years while trying to keep him happy.

Phil

Phil, indeed, if you want true reliability and performance it can be best to seperate the wifi WAP from the router as well (or as you say gateway). The apple airport express is a cracking WAP that is truly superb for upnp and Apple streaming and respective control points.

Interestingly some of the recent BT home hubs support QoS for telephony and video as well as more involved NAS (network authentication) uses for breakout services at the MSAN (before it goes anywhere near the internet) but yes it's best to try and use them as NTE if you can rather than a CE router. However a savvy network engineer can replace them completely by using a Cisco 870 or equivalent, as essentially the ADSL is simply presented as PPP over ATM. And of course for the really savvy, by doing this you can up your ADSL sync speed . (who said tweaking was limited tI hifi....)

Interstingly with the new BT FTTP services, it uses PPP over Ethernet, therefore the standard install has a fibre to Ethernet NTE, and an Ethernet patch lead into an Ethernet router. Ie you have two boxes. 

Simon

I haven't seen anyone mention interference, a really common pitfall with wifi. Cordless phones, burglar alarms, lots of things can interfere.

Try changing the wifi channel in your router configuration to a higher number... 11 or 12 say. Most cordless phones (on this side of the pond) use 1-8. 

Something else to try is wired networking through your house's electrical outlets. Gadgets for this purpose can be had for $200 or so and work really well. (Just don't use the same circuit as your audio stuff)

The other likely culprit is a spike in CPU or disk activity on your nas server.  Use your perfmon tool of choice to keep an eye on that.

I hope you didn't really spend a chunk on an enterprise switch/router. Any $40 wifi router will do the job equally well in a normal home environment with a small number of network clients. The larger ones typically have fans as well (noise). I use a Trendnet 8-port gigabit switch (not wifi) that cost $35. I'm using all 8 ports and no dropouts at all.

My switch: 

My wifi router: airport extreme.

Pc, nas, naim stuff is hooked up to switch.

Switch goes into router.

Router goes into cable modem for internet.

Nit sure why i would need cisco certifiction for this.

Mango,

Well certification would tell you your express is acting as layer 2 access wireless access port and NOT a router (which is layer 3 of course).  :-)

Seriously for a simple/trivial plug and play consumer network, you don't need any certification, just be able to read instructions or FAQs on the Internet and if it works - done job!!

Accreditation comes in if you really do need to use internal routers, VLANs, manage  multicast, wirelesss zones/authentication. For simple streaming you don't need any of that, it's all plug and play.

Of course if a piece of cheap consumer equipment is not working, like limiting throughput, or compromising TCP windowing or failing to process broadcast or multicast frames and causing stuttering, to debug it using a free analyzer like Wireshark you will need to understand what's going on which certification would help with....  Or simply perform trial and error swap out of consumer boxes until it works.

Simon

To debug anything with something like Wireshark, you either need to be running Wireshark on one of the machines communicating with the end device (which can be problematic if, say, your NAS is providing the data) or you need to be on a managed switch where you can port duplicate....

And the extreme not being a wireless router - surely if it's upstream port is connected to the WAN, then it is routing...

... or if you're a hoarder of old kit then just use an old 10/100 network *HUB* (rather than switch).

Phil

Ahahahaha... Very true 

Ahh, but using a hub you will be at half duplex with a wide collision domain, so your dynamics at level 2 will be quite different. The option above of port spanning is perfect, you can sniff full duplex connections, with single collision domains.. Job done... Of course you could swap a non managed switch with a managed one that supports spanning until job done..

Interestingly this where you can see TCP windowing parameters to some of us leave a sonic signature on the NDX...and this is the cause. (IMO) why some people say different NASes / upnp servers sound different.... But that's another story..

The  airport extreme does not route, at best it' can NAT/PAT (ie translate), along as you do not double NAT with an edge router into the Internet. Essentially the Airport Express is a layer 2 device or bridge ( with the anomolie it can PAT from a wireless subnet to a fixed one- along as you DO NOT use PAT on your internet router, ie for the significant majority of domestic internet connected networks it can only acts as a bridge).

A router will build a routing table from static routes, or routes advertised by a routing protocol, ie you can freely route between networks , ie route at L3, alas the airport express doesn't.. And I did try to force it to route :-)

Simon

nerd alert!

(takes one to know one)

I know, its sad isn't it :-)

S