Seeking an elgant solution

Vortexbox + NDS/555PS is what I intend to use when the NDS hits the streets - my intention is to use a small Juniper switch to let me connect the Vortexbox (music server) to the NDS/555PS (all in one streamer, renderer, DAC). That's the main system. In other rooms I can use my W4S Sonos Zp90 connected to my UQ to play off the same Vortexbox or a Mac Mini directly connected with a supernova 6 glass optical cable. 

Important thing if you rip all your music on to a Vortexbox is to back it up. 

Unless you have a lot of time and energy, and really enjoy dinking around with optical / coax cables, I recommend not going the sonos/PC/nDac route. A lot of peole will disagree.

Do a streamer/integrated for simplicity: ND5XS/NaitXS comes to mind. If you want to spend more, NDX/200/202. More simple? SuperUniti. Audition first, because stuff that's cheaper might sound better to you.

I have a synology NAS running at home. Went up one level from the cheapest version (small business instead of home) and it sounds great.

For your main room I would just add a HDX -SSD with QNAP NAS as the music store. The HDx works very well with the DAC and the HDX will support Streaming from the Web, produce bit perfect copies of your CDs and will act as a UPNP server. All this can be controlled by the Nserve App on the IPAD which is better than the Nstream App.

For your other rooms, I would go Sonos with Zp120 plus Speakers or ZP90 plus active speakers. The Sonos system would be able to access all the music on the HDX/NAS and would also allow you to access other music services such as Spotify,Napster/Rhapsody,Deezer etc. The SONOS controller works very well on the IPAD and is more user friendly and provides better functionality than the Nserve App.

The most elegant solution for me is still the HDX. Its dig-out is top notch; so with your nDAC or the future possible new dac from Naim, you will have the best Naim has to offer in your main hub. You will need no stream client here.

I have both NDX (latest upgraded one) and HDX plus I have recently purchased the Naim DAC.

Prior to having the DAC, I did back to back testing playing the same ripped CD (ripped by HDX) on both the HDX and NDX.  To my ears the NDX sounded better than the HDX. However once you have a DAC and you use the BNC digital out on both the HDX and NDX to feed the DAC then they both sound very similar. To my ears the combination of HDX with DAC sound very good and more or less identical to the NDX with DAC. The DAC brings much more definition,  soundstage and life to the music.

So if you are looking for an elegant solution the HDX makes sense as you already have the DAC and you are lloking for a solution to rip CDs etc.

For the other rooms, I would not tend to go Naim - I looked at Naimnetting the whole house or using other units such as Uniqute, etc. The cost was a big issue and  then ther are functionality issues. When I thought about serious music listening  it always tends to be done on your main system. Other rooms require music but in most (if not all cases) the music is background. It is for this reason I went Sonos. The Sonos system does not require wired Ethernet as it uses it's own mesh network which is very robust. With Sonos you then get access to other services such as Spotify, Napster etc plus it will coexist very nicely with a Naim system and can stream music from the HDX or NAS etc.

For simplicity,and sound quality the new Weiss MAN looks superb, everything controlled by IPad, you can stream radio ,Spotify etc, it rips ,finds album artautomatically , from the specs it apears to be the cats pyjamas.

H.

I originally got the W4S Sonos as the main feed for my Naim DAC, but then I found some hi-res music that I liked and so changed horses. Again when Cullen, now W4S, can out with its low jitter board for the ZP90, Apple was yet to release its low jitter optical out. Things move on very quickly. 

If hi-res is of non consequence and you just want to play music using a rather fine user interface then a suitable modified Sonos is just the ticket. If it is for background or occasional listening then the standard Sonos is very good - so yes a Z120 is a nice product. 

I think you can put movies on the Vortexbox, but I'm not the best person to ask. I hardly ever watch films - the last I saw was the Green Lantern (which confused me as when I used to read it there was only one Lantern). 

So currently, I use VB to Uniti (wired Ethernet in office) and Mac Mini to Naim DAC + 555PS (glass optical connection). The W4S ZP90 is not really in use, but I still think it is a very good product and if the NDS does not have iRadio then the ZP90 could do that job.  

I understand complete your comment "Convenient yes but would u get impatient n seat youself for main event?" and when I retire in a few years then the office system will become somewhat less useful. 

On your original question - I don't think the server makes any noticeable difference when connected over Ethernet - I like the Vortexbox, but to me it doesn't sound better or worse than any well built music server. It is very quiet though compared with an old Apple server I used to use. 

I have not auditioned the HDX with NDAC plus power supply - I suspect that would be my next step. Prior to having the NDAC , I found that I preferred the sound from the NDX even when playing tracks stored on the HDX. The addition of the NDAC has changed that and I now find the HDX + NDAC to sound just as good as the NDX + NDAC. The NDAC does seem to benefit both and i suspect that adding a power supply will further those benefits I described in my original post. HDX streams very well to the Sonos system (I have a ten zone Sonos system) which is brilliant and you get the benefit of the improved sound that the HDX gives to the Sonos system. The Sonos controller on the Ipad is light years better than both Nstream and NServe.

Yes I have both NDX and HDX - the main reason being I bought the HDX first before Internet radio was available on the HDX. I then bought the NDX to get Internet radio plus FM/DAB and then Naim announced the Intenret radio update for the HDX

I'm not sure but I think the Weiss MAN 301 is around twice the price of the HDX if you buy the one with the DAC included —  MAN301DAC; the other DAC-less version is cheaper — MAN301SERVER — but then you still have to add an external DAC. Thanks!

Thanks all, some really useful suggestions and thoughts.

I looked into QNAP and this appeals.  Went to the shop and saw how it operates.  They have a TS419P.  Much smaller than it looks online.  Should easily fit most places.  Intend to try 4 x 3TB.  That will give me 9TB with 3TB redundant apparently (RAID5)

So the options (for main room) seem to be (all into 282/250.2):

1. QNAP direct into Klimax DS

2. QNAP direct into NDX/HDX/MAN301 (without DAC) + nDAC + PS

3. QNAP direct into Mac Mini + nDAC + PS

4. QNAP direct into Squeezebox + nDAC + PS

All the above will sit together physically on main shelves on floor 1 (of 2 floors).

For secondary rooms, I could probably stream from QNAP to Sonos (Z120) utilizing UPnP.  I will have to emply a router, which hooks directly with QNAP and distributes the signal to Sonos.

I would probably set up 2 routers, one for each floor, and join them using adapter via electric cable.  This should ensure good performance on both floors.

I will rip all my cds using iMAC (if I do not opt for HDX/MAN301).

The question now is of course, which of the above options works best.  Price is important for now.  A friend said to me "a transport is a transport is a transport; bit is a bit is a bit"! 

The shop will send KDS over next week for trial.  I cannot trial Naim.  I can try and compare KDS side by side with SqueezeBox.  Hopefully this comparison will enlighten and help in decision making.

Any thoughts please?

I have Sonos ZP90 connected to nDAC with Naim's DC1cable. Then I have simply LaCie Network Space 2 as a NAS (1TB, and I have another as a backup) connected straight to my ethernet (and wifi) fast router D-Link DIR-855. It's reasonably priced (the NAS is 120€/pc, the router is 140&euro, very easy to handle and works perfectly. I have it in two different rooms in two floors and I can handle them separately or combined together.

I had also ND5XS for a home demo for two weeks, but I didn't hear any improvement in SQ. And as I stream the digital data to the nDAC's buffer memory, there shouldn't be any or only insignificant differents. I haven't been able to hear any clear audible differences between streamed music and USB-music directly connected to the nDAC.

I think that Sonos's interface in iPad and iPhone is much ahead of Naim's n-Stream. I can make my own playlist's, sort them while playing and store them. In n-Stream there is no playlists, no connection to outside music providers (like Spotify, from which I can add tracks to my Sonos-playlist) and it was much slower.

I really think the only weakness in Sonos is the lack of the ability to play hires-music, which I also has in my library. Even though I wouldn't be moving into Naim's streamers (not even NDS) before they get a less clumsy app into iPad.

Jussi

We had Linn sales over today.  I nice young guy with lots of energy.  He brought with him the newest KDS.  We couldn't get Squeezebox to work so left that out of the tests.

TESTS

We tested the following:

1.  KDS > 282 > 250.2 > Cremona M (using Powerline on all Naim gears but standard cord on Linn)

2.  Marantz SA7 > nDAC > 282 > 250.2 > Cremona M (all Powerlined)

MUSIC 

We used the following music:

Eva Cassidy Songbird

Dire Straits So Brothers in Arms (SACD)

Carpenters Reflection 

Tong Li (gold disc)

Jennifer Warnes Famous Blue Raincoat (gold disc)

He ripped all music from my CDs into his laptop.

RESULTS

The sales guy initially confidently said that the differences were big.  He said the dynamic range of SA7/nDAC was larger, but KDS produced far more details and overall much superior.

My wife thought on Dire Straits (So Far Away) that KDS was better and the margin was not small.  However on Songbird she got it the other way round, but said the differences were not great.  She didn't know which machine was playing which, of course.

I then cordially invited the sales guy to blind tests.  He declined at first but being such a nice guy quickly agreed after further invitation.  So we played the music simultaneously and I held the remote, toggling between SA7/nDAC and KDS.  

On Dire Straits, we all could identify the source. On Carpenters, it was more difficult but the sales guy picked it with confidence initially.  My wife thought the differences were not great.  When we got to Warnes and Tong Li, the differences seemed to evaporate.  Sales guy thought the sounds were practically identical.  My wife could not really pick it too with any consistency.  We tried hard, playing 3 tracks per disc.

My personal notes were as follow.  On Dire Straits, I enjoyed the sheer vitality, forwardness and brute force of SA7/nDAC.  I could appreciate the class exhibited by KDS but the sound was certainly more polite and you could respect as more under control.  SA7/nDAC in its boldness exhibited some marginal sibilance I thought (on this music only), perhaps a side effect of being so free in its presentation.  On Eva Cassidy, I thought as I admired the music that the KDS class became apparent.  The silky presentation of KDS matched the music so well that I had no hesitation ranking it ahead and enjoyed the listening immensely.  SA7/nDAC was no slouch on this music, but in contrast in the area of control on this particular music I interpreted to be both hazy and lacking coherence beside the almighty 20K KDS.  It therefore really surprised me that my wife thought SA7/nDAC was superior.  On Carpenters, the differences between the two machines (plus cabling) seemed to finally dawn on me.  Again both presented top music - and at this point both the sales guy and wife could hardly pick the difference.  However with the benefit of the remote in my hand, I could tell that KDS was more laid back with compressed soundstage compared with SA7/nDAC.  SA7/nDAC was significantly more energetic, like having an aura around the sound but in doing so gave up some control.  Yet that lack of control on Carpenters presented itself sometimes hand in hand with greater intimacy.  When I toggled, those differences were usually (but not always especially when music suddenly changed tempo) very noticeable.  On Jennifer Warnes, I could not as hard as I tried pick up much - they were both extremely enjoyable and almost seemed to try and  out do each other, although I thought perhaps KDS shaded ahead in overall balance of the presentation again with its more laid back and controlled presentation given the abundant excitement already in the music.  On Tong Li, I again wondered at the quality and sonic haven of this disc.  It is without doubt the best disc I have and keeps proving itself.  Again the differences that I picked on Carpenters were heard here, with KDS more laid back with vertically smaller soundstage.  

Based on the above, I told the sales guy who after 2.5 hours of listening that it would not make sense for me to buy KDS based on sonic alone and he agreed seemingly without hesitation.  I might consider it for streaming, especially given its elegance compared with the bulky transport/nDAC.  I will do business with him likely but perhaps on home theatre.

He couldn't leave KDS overnight, which I thought perhaps could shed more insight on its true abilities.  I also thought perhaps not having a decent power cord did it no favor.  Overall there was no compelling reason for me to conclude that KDS was clearly superior - I think I could understand why someone might think that and I could certainly live with it and enjoy most music with it.  I enjoy more lively sound, some forwardness and warmth.

Excellent write-up 

> He said the dynamic range of SA7/nDAC was larger, but KDS produced far more details and overall much superior.

That's surprising for a Linn salesman, I'd have expected him to favour the Naim 

However, he did seem a pretty nice guy especially as he agreed that there was no sonic benefit of £15k KDS over £2k Naim DAC - now if I'm not mad, and the jury is out on that, and the 555PS elevates the performance of the Naim DAC then .... well the DAC/555PS should be the winner ... but enter the NDS and ... well

If the Linn is more laid back then perhaps, it is not for me, but lots of folks really like the KDS and I bet the design and build is top notch - Linn's drawer on CD12 was an amazing piece of engineering.

So it is, as it is almost always is at this level, subjective.

It sounds like you had a top demo from a fair minded demonstrator - I'm impressed he let you decide what suited you and didn't try to persuade you one way or another.

Although I've not heard the KDS I can believe it is excellent, but then so is the Naim DAC and the NDS. Wouldn't it be easier, if there was always a clear winner ... but in the end it doesn't matter 'cos how can you lose when choosing between two sources of excellence.   

Thanks Guido.

Sort of tells me that perhaps streaming has some way to go to close the gap with conventional playback.  $ spent to get better sonic may not make a lot of sense right now on this experience.  I will try same experiment with SB hopefully soon once I could get it to work.

Taking KDS (or high end streamers) out, I may SB everything via NAS (if SB with nDAC proves itself not too far behind).  Get a PS for nDAC.  Not ideal tho as I don't like the box count - KDS 1 box vs SB/nDAC/PS 3 boxes.  I will keep my ears open re NDS, but based on KDS I would b hesitant to spend money here.  My soft conclusion at this point is that it takes disproportionately more money for SQ on streamers.  I have little doubt streamers will easily take over both in conveninece and SQ (no moving parts like bulky and complex CD transports), but question is when.  It is not now.

So ticked off streamer (exclude high end solutions). Ticked off server (going for NAS box).  However a couple of questions remain:

Should I use SB, Mac Mini or Mac Book?  (And does ripping on Mac make any difference to ripping via HDX?)

Should I aim for XPS1 or 555PS?

Help and suggestions would be great thanks.

keilic, you may take interest in the newly released plugin for the SB which enables USB-audio out (for use with USB DACs), *but* in addition support for sampling rates up to 192kHz [on all digital outputs]. Its 3rd party, but very interesting!

Hi Keilic, about 12 months ago I was experimenting with streaming as a viable alternative to my then CDS3. I tried a SB classic (standard and modded) into a borrowed nDAC /XPS2. The results were dire compared to CDS3. No vibrancy or life, just sterile and digital. I experimented with different PSU including a highly regulated one for the SB, still a massive gap in performance. The best I could get the SB to sound was with 320kbps LAME encoded mp3. 

I was somewhat disillusioned with streaming for hifi until I later tried the NDX and then the NDX /NDAC /555PS and that was a whole different world completely.

Simon