Seeking an elgant solution
Posted by: keilic on 18 March 2012
I know some might suggest "use the search function". I have. And over a few long sessions of that plus googling, I must say given the vast array of terminologies and acronyms plus seemingly limitless options out there it has been difficult to follow current technology let alone assess a best application of the technology.
WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO
1. Rip all my cds. I am tired of having a large library with music scattered over hundreds of cds. I sometimes hear an old favorite song walking around outside the house and think what an absolute pity - I have that song but it's on a disc sitting in my library not listened to because it is the only track on that disc that I enjoy.
2. Control all my music using an easy interface like an iPAD. Each time I visit a shop I love how convenient this is.
3. In the near future, stream music into 3 or 4 rooms in the house (e.g. balcony/patio, study, bedroom). The main hub will of course be where the serious thing happens with all my largely naim electronics and speakers. I would want of course to be able to use the iPAD to control music in all rooms.
WHAT QUALITY DO I SEEK
Utmost quality in the main hub but good-high quality in the other rooms.
WHAT DO I HAVE NOW
Marantz top SACD player > nDAC > 282 > 250.2 > Cremona M.
I also have an idle Logitech Squeezebox. I have a 3 year old MAC which works poorly wirelessly. I have an Airport Express in idle too.
QUESTIONS
Based on above requirements any suggestions would be welcome.
Some specific questions:
* What type of "server" is best? NAS vs Macbook vs UnitiServe vs??
* What type of streamer would be good? Sonos, etc?
* How could NDS/NDX/etc play a part in this (if at all)? I fancy getting NDS one day, in terms of ultimate quality. Or KDS?
* Putting it together, does that mean I have to have e.g. a Macbook as server running into main hub (Squeezebox > nDAC) and Sonus receivers in the other 3/4 rooms? Pls ignore the Macbook, Squeezbox, Sonos, which are only illustrations based my limited understanding, and substitute them with more applicable gears/brands.
Thanks a lot!
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keilic, you may take interest in the newly released plugin for the SB which enables USB-audio out (for use with USB DACs), *but* in addition support for sampling rates up to 192kHz [on all digital outputs]. Its 3rd party, but very interesting!
Thanks spent a lot of today returning a broken router and setting up new one. Now sitting down to listen to a few tracks. Hi-res is certainly one of the next steps. Thanks for that tip.
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Go with a Vortexbox - build your own it's not difficult - backup to USB - use bliss to organise your files and artwork. Stream to Naim streamer of choice use inbuilt iTunes / Sonos / Squeezebox servers for other rooms.
Job done.
Tog
Could u explain the benefits of it in the scheme of all things ? I was looking at it a few threads back. Is it the ripping part? Thanks.
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keilic, you may take interest in the newly released plugin for the SB which enables USB-audio out (for use with USB DACs), *but* in addition support for sampling rates up to 192kHz [on all digital outputs]. Its 3rd party, but very interesting!
Thanks spent a lot of today returning a broken router and setting up new one. Now sitting down to listen to a few tracks. Hi-res is certainly one of the next steps. Thanks for that tip.
So you mean that a sb touch can be linked to nDAC via a usb cable, no need of coax or optical cable anymore? How to get this plugin? Is via soundcheck?
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Hi Keilic, about 12 months ago I was experimenting with streaming as a viable alternative to my then CDS3. I tried a SB classic (standard and modded) into a borrowed nDAC /XPS2. The results were dire compared to CDS3. No vibrancy or life, just sterile and digital. I experimented with different PSU including a highly regulated one for the SB, still a massive gap in performance. The best I could get the SB to sound was with 320kbps LAME encoded mp3.
I was somewhat disillusioned with streaming for hifi until I later tried the NDX and then the NDX /NDAC /555PS and that was a whole different world completely.
Simon
Hi Simon,
Thanks for sharing that. I'm undertaking what must b a familiar journey. As u can see my first experiment was with a high end solution. Result didnt make complete sense fr price vs value. I must say a little disappointed too given some rave reviews here. While that sound was certainly not inferior to what I have, kds in its own way is relatively sterile (in the most classy sense). I hesitate re ndx due to experience with kds which hints at the limit of current streamers. How would u compare that to CDs3? Hopefully not opening an old door. Have listened to several sb streamed tracks as I type. They seem intact and relative performance varies fr disc to disc. Need more time but yes so far something not quite right.
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Vortebox gets a lot of praise and if you do decide on going that route I suggest you get hardware that supports USB3 and eSATA. Possibly also Thunderbolt and Firewire 800 if you are using Macs.
With highres music/film/pictures it quickly becomes a pain to move data over USB2 and slower.
Between SB and Mac, I'd choose SB any day for the combination of usability and features. Havent A/B'd with Naim transports, but into the nDAC, the SB sounds pretty good no matter.
Thx for that. U mean vortexbox rips good? Jennifer warned famous blue raincoat sounding convincing on sb right now. A few other tracks seemed amiss - could b my paranoia as my wife thinks its ok. I will move forward on your other tips in time - already far more educated now than when starting this thread.
> U mean vortexbox rips good?
Vortexbox uses CD Paranoia and so it rips as well as anything else out there - XLD, for example, which is often thought to be the best way to rip on a Mac, uses the CD Paranoia engine.
The only ripper I have come across that does some extra is dBPowerAmp with HDCDs.
Otherwise whether ripped by CD Paranoia, Naim, dBPowerAmp or iTunes, you get the same music data in my experience.
I would use S/PDIF rather than USB to connect to the Naim DAC as it is not designed to work any other way with the exception of Apple devices and USB sticks. The Naim DAC is not a USB DAC. USB DACs are engineered to attempt to overcome the shortcoming of the noisy USB output and some succeed apparently. A good USB to S/PDIF convertor does work well, but a computer like the Mac Mini Lion simply doesn't need it as it has such as well engineered optical out.
The Vortexbox is the my favourite streaming device because it seems to do everything I could want and is not fussy about what it serves to. The only thing I can think of that it doesn't do is transcribe to WAV on the fly, but as I can't tell [AF]LAC from AIFF/WAV then I'm unconcerned. You can also build a Vortexbox that meets your needs precisely in terms of ripping, storage, noise (or silent) and so on - you can stream (Ethernet) or use S/PDIF or even USB. It works with Naim, Sonos, Apple and I'm told Linn and SB (but not tried that). You can try VB for free and if you have an old computer you don't want to use for anything else continue to use it forever for free.
No I don't think so. It means you can use USB in fully asynchronous mode with a DAC that supports this - Google "USB DAC". The nDAC, I think, only supports mass storage device class devices and not USB audio class devices. It would at least require a firmware update to the nDAC.
Its not related to soundcheck - in fact it can be somewhat incompatible with soundcheck.
It will enable the Touch to feed the nDAC with highres audio up to 192kHz over optical or coax.
Edit: I didnt see Guidos post re: USB DAC, but I'll just leave my reply also.
Guido: if used as a server for SB, its not a problem to transcode to wav - if so desired...
Re: Ripping. And you can of course always go the route of ripping to the Vortebox with your favourite OS and software.
@Keilic
Essentially Vortexbox not only duplicates the function of the UnitiServe ( without magic ripping
) but also provides a huge number of options for streaming to practically any device worth streaming to in the first place. It will rip very effectively ( you can watch the wole process from your iPadus but I tend to use XLD on my mac because my TogServe is hidden away. I also use Plex a great deal to stream video and the latest version of VB allows you to install Plex Server.
Tog
Since last post, I acquired new high speced NAS Synology DS412+.
I have been streaming from:
NAS to
SB Touch
nDAC into
XPS2 (on and off) into
282/252 into
250/300
In a nutshell, key issues I've encountered have been:
- WAV files sound best (have tried MP4, ALAC, FLAC, AIFF, AAC) - this is based on long listening sessions.
- Hi rez files sound good (e.g. Barb Jungr from Naim) in WAV form - in other forms difficult for me to tell superiority (e.g. HDTracks sample hi rez files are FLAC and they do not sound special even tho in higher res than Naim).
- WAV files however do not support tagging! Anyone new to this, please observe as this was a painful lesson.
- On non-WAV files, I have felt despondent about streaming. Quality far (FAR) behind CDS3. On WAV files, still short but enjoyable. This is even with XPS2 on nDAC.
- When playing with volume knob on iPAD, SQ seems to be affected - i.e. do NOT control volume using wi-fi. Should always set it at 100% and use pre-amp volume knob.
Some lessons learnt (repetitive I know) :
- Ripping music not easy. Takes a lot of manual effort. I tried 2 applications (Bliss and Tuneup) and neither is without fault. Especially in beginning with hundreds of discs to rip, the problems snowballed out of proportion. Each album needed basic attention and sometimes 5-15 min of finessing. Being ignorant, I simply ripped them all at once and then tried to fix them together. Ideally, you should deal with 1 album at a time and not move to the next album until last one perfect (in terms of artwork and other text tags).
- WAV files do NOT support tags. Tags are needed to structure your collection electronically (which I didn't really understand). So I ended up ripping everything into WAV first. Then enjoyed the music quite a bit. But then found problems looking up and organizing music (blank cover arts and wrong or blank artist names). Pulled out my hair. Then converted them all to AIFF. Without good iTunes and MAC knowledge, this was awful experience. Would not want to do this ever again.
- SB Touch or nDAC (have not got to bottom of this yet) does not deal well with non-WAV files. I don't know why (I know the theories that it shouldn't for lossless files).
Combination of 2 and 3 have really put me off streaming - until solutions could be found. Dichotomy of WAV sounding best, but without proper tagging they are largely disorganized removing convenience and accessibility benefits of streaming.
Now going back to the past and enjoying CDS3/252/300 a bit - and sounds stunning...
Thinking about NDS, KDS (again) and Devialet...
keilic,
The answer to your questions imo is HDX into nDac (which you already have). The other options you mention will not satisfy you. It will rip conveniently with the minimum of effort and create properly indexed wav files, and is a marvelous digital source for your dac. The second option is to have a software which creates proper tags for wav files. Simon has always been reporting that he's been ripping with dbpoweramp into wav and creating proper tags.
> WAV files sound best (have tried MP4, ALAC, FLAC, AIFF, AAC) - this is based on long listening sessions.
AAC apart which is lower quality, this suggests a short coming in the SB Touch. Surely, it should send the same PCM to the Naim DAC, whatever format it starts in. The difference in processing on an old Mac (PowerPC is less than 1%) - perhaps it is much more on the SBT, I don't know.
If the extra effort introduces RFI then I wonder if an optical connection would solve this.
Could it be jitter? SBT and Naim DAC are both supposed to do very well on this score.
With a Mac Mini/Naim DAC I cannot hear differences between formats - I'm not claiming the MM is the best source (though I think it is very good) and it could be masking differences that your SBT does not, but I do find it strange.
AIFF is so close to WAV in terms of what is going on - it is not compressed - and I found used a fraction less processor than WAV ... miniscule though and within the realms of measurement error, so what you have found surprises me.
I can't hear any difference through a Sonos in to Naim DAC either.
Aysil has come up with a solution that would be worth an audition, as the HDX uses WAV files and should handle the processing well and do good stuff with S/PDIF.
Simon transcodes to WAV before sending it out across the network - so that may work for you - and as he uses dBPA and Asset from the same developer, it will all hang together very well.
Looks like you've had a negative experience here (ripping & tagging) but it doesn't have to be this way.
Re lesson one - I found ripping to be pretty straightforward using dBpoweramp as it is very good at album art (usually picking the right image but letting you choose from alternatives or to override in the rare cases that you're not happy with what it's offering) and metadata (accessing five metadata libraries and using its PerfectMeta functionality to offer the 'best' details). Sure, you need to take a few minutes to get your ripping profile set up as desired in the first place, and I do review the 'chosen' metadata details and album art, and often make some tweaks but this takes a small amount of time (closer to 1-2 mins than 5-15 mins) between popping the CD in and hitting the rip button.
Re lesson two - I don't think it's fair to say that Wav doesn't support tagging. dBpoweramp, for instance, will store tags against Wav files using two metadata standards (LIST and ID3v2), and Asset UPnP will read these tags when streaming (appreciate my example may not apply to your case of going from NAS to DAC via Sonos - not something I'm familiar with). It's not a big surprise that dBpoweramp and Asset are compatible in this respect as they are developed by the same team but I'm sure that there are other compatible apps and a) you can get Wav tagging to work and b) where tags are not read it's IMO an issue with the software/device that you are using (in which case either ditch said software/device or ditch Wav - in your case, where you have an audible preference for Wav, it would seem sensible to do the former).
Cheers
Ian
aysil,
Some basic questions on that solution. Does HDX connect with NAS (accept files ripped on HDX and send files back to HDX to play). I know there are 2 options for HDX right, with and without HD. Then would you need power supply on HDX to get good sound quality - then I'd have to have 4 boxes just for source (HDX, PS on HDX, nDAC, PS on nDAC). Could save me a lot of headache of course if I have enough space for that. Could be costly too.
Guido,
Yes am stumped. I thought AIFF files would be similar to WAV (uncompressed, similar size, etc). But since converting WAV to AIFF the enjoyment factor really dropped. Compared with CDS3 there is so much more boogie factor + all the hi-fi superlatives (bass kick, soundstage, drama, micro dynamic details, etc). I even switched back to SA7-S1 (Marantz) and that sounds excellent too (different to CDS3, which is overall my preferred player altho SA7 outperforms in some music). So streaming with AIFF a magnitude behind those CDPs. However when I switch back to WAV (especially high res), streaming holds its own.
Ian,
Thanks, that's useful. I am still a beginner despite 2 hard months! That sounds interesting, altho I have to say I dread going thru the tagging exercise again on 6,000 songs! Let me look into dBpoweramp. But on the surface it looks like an iTune substitute? Software that rips then find album info. Would I have to rip everything all over again? And how long would it take to do 300-400 CDs?
Ian,
Thanks, that's useful. I am still a beginner despite 2 hard months! That sounds interesting, altho I have to say I dread going thru the tagging exercise again on 6,000 songs! Let me look into dBpoweramp. But on the surface it looks like an iTune substitute? Software that rips then find album info. Would I have to rip everything all over again? And how long would it take to do 300-400 CDs?
I've been ripping for the last few days and I do between 20 and 30 a day. Each rip in total takes about 9 mins and then you have to walk back to the Unitiserve and take out the cd and put in another.
I've got around 500 CDs and I've already decided not to rip around 40 CDs. I'm thinking 2 more weeks. Is nice though to scroll through them on the iPad.
I don't know if it's the future or not, but sound wise it's not lesser than a bare CDX2. Heard.