Sign of the times?

That happened to me, Mike!  About three years ago I transferred 3000 into someones account who was 'selling' a 555PS.  Total fraud and I had realised after I sent the money (he used a fake address on the Isle of Man).  Thankfully, the bank checks backfired and the money was sent BACK into my account!

So I am now extremely cautious about falling for such scams again!

Jon

It's a scam.  Be very careful about any so-called Naim "bargains" for sale online.  Use your head, always insist on personal collection.  Check the serial numbers with Naim to be sure it's kosher.

Remember, if it all looks just too good to be true, it usually is....

I saw this one myself, thing is you get tempted to have a punt.

I even emailed the guy, but he never got back to me so I didn't take the risk.

Richard with your permission - there has been a very nasty scammer thread over on another forum. It makes for scary reading and I would recommend anybody thinking of buying second hand privately give it a read.

Jono 

Moderated Post:  Jono, I know the thread but have edited your post to ensure it complies with Naim forum rules.  To all: As always, use common sense and don't lose your head when the red mist of a new acquisition starts to blind you to a potential fraud.  Don't be afraid to ask questions or to ask to see (and hear) an item.  Even if you can't actually get to see them, an honest seller will be more than happy to oblige, although they may well wish to ask their own questions to ensure you're not a burglar coming to case their premises.  Most people are reasonably honest, just don't assume that they all are.

As someone who buys online regularly, without problem, I would say just use common sense. 

So true and yet so often trumped by " a sucker is born every minute!".

+1

My 202/HC/NAPSC/250 all came secondhand from online (Audiogon). There is an element of risk, but common sense prevails.

Have had nothing but excellent experiences buying secondhand Naim kit from the major auction site.  Doesn't PayPal protect you against this kind of fraud?

Check T&Cs carefully.

Jono

Saw this one as well yesterday and it's a one day sale, Advertise as a brand new unwanted item.So was that the price it was sold for.

Seconded.

Let's be honest, this one had scam written all over it. Who in their right mind would put a 552 up for auction for one day with no reserve. Also, all the information was simply taken from Naim's website. Any genuine Naim owner just loves to describe their kit and generally welcomes the chance to 'talk' about it. Anyone bidding on that 552 needs their head testing.

I've sold items on eBay, but have never bought anything. Prefer the peace of mind and back up from a Naim dealer if buying second hand. When selling, I always offer collection/cash when selling because that's the easiest all round and saves on those ridiculous Paypal fees and the worry associated with shipping such expensive stuff.

Hi All,

Regarding the recent spate of scams appearing on the well known auction site, speaking as one of those who managed to bring down some of the more obviously fraudulent listings, it does seem very much to be a case of "buyer beware".

I have bought and sold over there for years, without mishap, but I do feel immense sympathy for those less shrewd, who allow themselves to be carried away by the latest "bargain", witness the soul who is about to hand over some £2900 for his new NAC 552.

As someone has already mentioned, the t & c's at both ebay and PayPal need to be read carefully.

As ever, if it seems to good to be true...........................etc.

Regards,

Dave.

Moderated Post:  To comply with forum rules re. cross-forum dicussions.

That would add a considerable level of complexity to this forum.

Right now, anyone can join and is free to post. How do you handle a marketplace on the forum? Hide it from new members until they are established? How is that defined? How will it get managed? Otherwise, treat it just like another forum area and leave it open to all, including new members? Then you'll get new members just to use the marketplace, and open it to scammers. I doubt Naim wants that or any of the potential liabilities associated with running an online markeplace, even if it is entirely user-driven.

I just don't see that happening, and it won't solve any problem nor prevent issues that haven't already been addressed by eBay, Audiogon, etc.

Zinger, the issue of a forum classifieds has arisen many times before.  All kinds of reasons why Naim would not want that here.  Naim could be seen to have a duty of care in any transaction initiated through the forum.  Naim's dealer network will always provide the safest and most guaranteed means for acquiring second-hand Naim equipment.

i never buy anything unless I can see it because in life there really is very little chance of a bargain

Whilst old fashioned I just can't deal with the anxiety of ebay and would far prefer to pay the going rate and go to a dealer for the support and guarantee . in the same way its easier to go to a main agent for a car and etc even if its a dearer path. Interestingly though a Vw main agent did lie and sell me an ex Hertz car without declaring it was ex hire! Even in this case though one emails and a fairly firm phone call meant that the full money was repaid

Given that repair  bills on anything specialist are dear and an item could also be stolen it just not worth the worry

Not accepting cash on collection, no serial numbers, not responding to emails, no photos of actual items including boxes. You would have to be very naive to fall for this obvious scam and Paypal so called protection is full of holes in any case.

eBay + PayPal = Avoid like the plague, as far as I'm concerned

Yes, I know the "I've used hundreds of times with no problem" argument, but to me that's like saying I played cricket with a grenade and didn't explode, so what's the problem. Neither eBay nor PayPal seem to accept any responsibility for guaranteeing the validity of the transaction. 

If looks to good to be true then it is too good to be true. 

If you use common sense then it is probably still too good to be true.

Still I'm not so bitter after I won the Canadian lottery, the money should turn up any day now. I've paid the tax and the funny thing was I can't even remember buying the ticket. The guy on the phone who told me I'd won didn't even sound Canadian, but he was very jolly. Must admit I was surprised the Canadian tax office require their taxes to be deposited in a left luggage locker at Waterloo station, but I was assured that was usual and there was even an Internet site called Conodion Tox Office that confirmed this (the guy on the phone explained they had been having trouble with the site provider and hence the "o" instead of they "a"; some provider called hoopless, he said) .... oh well, As Bob Dylan once said, "I can't help it if I'm lucky". 

No problem with buying s/h, but why not buy through an authorised dealer ...

We all make our own judgements on risk versus reward.  I also think most of us are equipped with a pretty good sixth sense over whether a seller is genuine or not.

If I want secondhand, I am mostly stuck with buying online. I don't have a local Naim dealer that gets very much at all in the way of secondhand Naim components. I buy some things new (my ND5 XS, and UnitiQute before that), but the other stuff I have I could not afford new.

I just bought a 552 on eBay and am loving it. I have the same problem as RaceTripper - no Naim dealers around with high-end Naim gear.

I would say that Naim equipment is easily checked: 

- ask for additional close-up photos (e.g. of box with inscription of s/n...)

- ask for collection (actually, with the 552, I asked for delivery, fair enough I would think with such equipment!)

- simply ask s/n's (you get surprisingly funny answers about why a seller won't give a s/n....).

- ask nerdy questions that only we on this forum would feel enthusiastic about answering - "what was your upgrade path", "can I power I headline off it, or is a HiCap better", and things like that !

Of course a really good scammer could outsmart all of us, but those will be outsmarting banks for millions rather than selling scam Naim gear on eBay. 

I have used the flea-internet-market with considerable success, but would not buy a Naim item that way. 

I consider it a place where one might buy something as a potential non-ruinous total write off. This approach does limit the amount I would be prepared to bid.

All the running gear on the Carlton was either bought this way, or, subsequently, privately from sellers who were trustworthy. Strangely I was happier buying from a known seller, but privately, rather than through the system, which may sound counter-intuitive ...

Strangely [though indirectly] my ESL 57s passed through the system before I took ownership. I would never have had the nerve to buy them that way, but once I knew they were genuine, I was delighted. In that case they sale price was the proper market value for a fully One Thing Audio rebuilt pair of vintage period Quads of the type. 

ATB from George

> I also think most of us are equipped with a pretty good sixth sense

That's what they all say until their grenade is the one that explodes. 

> Of course a really good scammer could outsmart all of us

Perhaps, but if you avoid e-Bay, PayPal and only buy online with a protected credit card from reputable points of sale then you reduce those chances significantly. Yes, you can get run down on a pelican crossing, but it is still safer than closing your eyes and making a dash for it. 

Obviously, collecting the goods is ideal - though it doesn't give you much in the way of consumer rights. However, if you visit somebody's home and listen before you buy then the risk is much smaller than buying from some bloke in a pub/on eBay. 

It just isn't very nice when you meet folks who get caught by this practice, quite often people who think would never be caught. 

Are there not reputable Naim dealers who will ship s/h kit safely to most locations?

I think there are.