ND5XS vs Squeezebox vs Linn DS

Posted by: davea on 31 March 2012

Hi,

     I've used slim devices transporter for a few years as streaming source.   I like the functionality and it sounds great through Naim dac but I would still like to revert to a naim streamer if poss.

 

    I have been trying the ND5XS -   sound is fine but there seems to be a lot of functionality missing (or am I missing somethng obvious) ...

 

eg

    (1)   Internet radio  -   access to iPlayer / Listen Again shows?

    (2)   Other streaming content, eg Last FM

    (3)   Station Search -  horrible web app only

    (4)   Play random album selection -  Ive been spoilt by the random album play function on SqueezeboxServer, cant make a selection on my own any more ;-)

    (5)   Control from desktop and iTunes integration

 

 

   Ok, so I like the fact that the system integration function on the ND5XS lets me control preamp from the iPad app but I have to give up a lot of stuff I use in order to gain that.

 

    The desktop is partly addressed using KinskyDesktop, but why does even this not allow Listen Again access?   Kinsky thinks it is doing it but the ND5XS doesn't respond.

 

   Is Naim ever likely to catch up and provide any of this which is readily available on other platforms?     It is very tempting to jump ship in favour of Linn DS to be honest.

    

Posted on: 31 March 2012 by AMA

You should aim at a KDS level in order to get the sound of Transporter/nDAC.

 

TP/nDAC/555PS is very good and excels KDS in overall tightness and particularly in bass weight and articulation.

 

If you like thin and relaxed presentation you can obviously look at Linn DS -- but you can get back to bare Transporter for the same. I guess it's not far from ADS in SQ.

Posted on: 31 March 2012 by davea
Originally Posted by AMA:

You should aim at a KDS level in order to get the sound of Transporter/nDAC.

 

TP/nDAC/555PS is very good and excels KDS in overall tightness and particularly in bass weight and articulation.

 

If you like thin and relaxed presentation you can obviously look at Linn DS -- but you can get back to bare Transporter for the same. I guess it's not far from ADS in SQ.

 

I dont think my budget will stretch to KDS :-(

 

It is a shame because the ND5XS does as well as the TP into the DAC and it obviously looks far better on the eye.   Its just the Naim software which seems so far behind.

Posted on: 31 March 2012 by Iver van de Zand

Dear Davea,

 

I think I understand your point. I recently upgraded from a Squeezebox Touch / North STar Essensio DAC onto the ND5XS. In terms of sound quality, I have found everything what I was looking for and am really happy and impressed with the ND5XS. My system is in balance now, and provides me with rhythm and "airy sound" just the way I like it so much.

 

However on the controlling side of things, I believe there is a long way to go. For me the Internet Radio features are suitable since I only listen to some 5 radio stations I have all programmed. Navigatng through my collection with nStream doesn't come close to what I was used to using both iTunes and iPeng. Yes, the ambums are all there and can all be found, but I lack filtering, sorting, advanced searching and different types of shuffle etc ... Also once finished an album, and I choose "back" in the nStream, it doesn't go back to its last position, but it goed back to the top of the alphabeth, which is really annoying. Also a lot of metadata is not visualized by nStream.

 

I know Naim an do way better than this and hope they have a thorough look at what the competition is offering. nServe already provides a whole lot more.

 

Iver

Posted on: 31 March 2012 by ricsimas

I felt an ADS was a lot better than an ND5XS with or without nDAC during a store demo.

 

I can't tell you how the Transporter compares, unfortunately. I would try hard to listen to all of those before proceeding.

Posted on: 31 March 2012 by AMA
Originally Posted by davea:
It is a shame because the ND5XS does as well as the TP into the DAC and it obviously looks far better on the eye.   Its just the Naim software which seems so far behind.

Well, it's an audiophile forum -- not a furniture pageant 

 

To me the macaroni behind my Naim boxes does not look pretty at all. 

 

I own TP and I would not swap it for ND5XS. Sean (a guy behind TP) was way ahead of his time.

 

I would suggest you to buy XPS for nDAC -- huge leap in sonic performance. This is the area where you better place your money.

Posted on: 01 April 2012 by davea

Well in experimenting this weekend I have just discovered you can even use the TP to control the Naim preamp volume.   I can't believe it! ive had the TP for years and not realied you can use the RC5 out socke to do that!

 

So the only thing the NDX does better now is look like a Naim box.   I think it is definately going back.

Posted on: 01 April 2012 by keilic
Dava,

Could I ask r u sending ndx or nd5xs back?  Transporter outperforms which?

AMA,

R u saying Transporter + dac + ps superior to kds in sq?  Not easy for me to reconcile your posts since I read a while ago how u thought so highly of kds. 

Price difference not huge but 3 boxes vesus 1 box.
Posted on: 01 April 2012 by davea

TP outperforms ND5XS because of better functionallity of control software etc.    Audio performance is equal thro the Naim Dac, as expected I guess.

 

Yes, I can send it back as I only had on demo for the weekend.

Posted on: 01 April 2012 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Dave, I think you might be confusing some of the functionality that is provided by the upnp server as opposed to the ND5XS. I use Asset as a upnp server, and provides good web radio search and indexing, it provides jukebox functions (ie random track or album playlists) and allows fast, easy to use and customisable or pre defined navigation, sorting and filtering functions that makes Nstream a breeze.

Most of the navigation and ease of use is down to the upnp server, not the control point or network player. I use a NDX, and i sold my old squeezebox.

Simon

Posted on: 02 April 2012 by HuwJ

I agree with Simon. The functionality comes from the server, as it does with Squeezebox equipment.

 

I'm not a fan of the Squeezebox Server - it's just too messy to get it working (IMO). However, if you are used to it and the way it works then you can actually run NDX & ND5XS from the Squeezebox Server. I'm not sure if all the add ons (such as LastFM & Spotify) work. I would think that iPeng will control your Naim though.

 

The Naim software is very clunky and slow, but will be updated soon - we can only hope it speeds up and becomes user friendly.

 

I use JRiver UPNP server with JRemote or My River as controls on my iPad/iPod. It's far more powerfull and much, much faster than the nStream application. I run Spotify premium and LastFM off the iPad in to the nDAC and you can run Tunein Radio etc too.

 

If you are happy with the sound of your TP you might be better getting a PSU as suggested by AMA. Then all your software will be in one place and you should get an improvement in SQ.

 

Regards

Huw

Posted on: 02 April 2012 by AMA
Originally Posted by keilic:
AMA,

R u saying Transporter + dac + ps superior to kds in sq?  Not easy for me to reconcile your posts since I read a while ago how u thought so highly of kds. 

keilic, the kds is more analogue player but nDAC/555PS has a slightly weightier and punchier bass.

 

This is clearly stated in all my posts on kds vs nDAC/555PS. 

 

KDS is also quieter -- very easy to check.

 

Overall I prefer kds to nDAC/555PS -- especially on Red Books.

Posted on: 02 April 2012 by davea
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Dave, I think you might be confusing some of the functionality that is provided by the upnp server as opposed to the ND5XS. I use Asset as a upnp server, and provides good web radio search and indexing, it provides jukebox functions (ie random track or album playlists) and allows fast, easy to use and customisable or pre defined navigation, sorting and filtering functions that makes Nstream a breeze.

Most of the navigation and ease of use is down to the upnp server, not the control point or network player. I use a NDX, and i sold my old squeezebox.

Simon

Fair enough, but both were tested with the same uPNP server, I guess the SB server is bypassing uPNP for some of the other TP functions.   Unfortunately I cant use Asset as my server is Linux.   Any other good servers for Linux?

Posted on: 02 April 2012 by keilic
Originally Posted by AMA:

You should aim at a KDS level in order to get the sound of Transporter/nDAC.

 

TP/nDAC/555PS is very good and excels KDS in overall tightness and particularly in bass weight and articulation.

 

If you like thin and relaxed presentation you can obviously look at Linn DS -- but you can get back to bare Transporter for the same. I guess it's not far from ADS in SQ.


AMA,

 

I'm sure it's a misunderstanding (which oddly does not seem irregular).  Without dissecting word for word, your post reads like Transporter (Logitech)/nDAC/555PS at least as good as KDS.  Then you say "bare Transporter" is "not far from ADS in SQ".  No?

 

Could I confirm your ranking then to make sure no misses this time:

 

1.  KDS

2.  TP/nDAC/555PS

3.  ADS

3.  TP

 

That is, ADS and bare TP equal 3. 

 

Further I would be interested in how would you rank CD555 in the above, only for SQ?  Is it above KDS or below.  What about vs TP/nDAC/555PS?

 

Then what do you think about Mac Mini, Squeezbox, NDX, HDX as transports all into nDAC/PS?

 

Apologies for picking your brains multiple times... 

Posted on: 02 April 2012 by bhaagensen
Hi, if you don't mind - how exactly is this done? I suppose it requires an appropriate cable of some sort - from the IR-out on the TP into the RC5 socket, or? 
 
Originally Posted by davea:

Well in experimenting this weekend I have just discovered you can even use the TP to control the Naim preamp volume.   I can't believe it! ive had the TP for years and not realied you can use the RC5 out socke to do that!

Posted on: 02 April 2012 by AMA
keilic, I like KDS more than nDAC/555PS with any transports (including USB input, UnityServe, PC/HiFace, Transporter etc.). The only SQ mark where Naim wins over KDS is weightier and more articulated bass and sharper transients in miss -- the difference is rather subtle.
But these features do rock and some people may like it.
I find KDS to be more natural and closer to classic/jazz live performance which I listen a lot.
KDS is also closer to the sonic signature of my LP12.
 
I value both KDS and nDAC/555PS higher than ADS/0 and bare TP -- which are both very thin and actually close to each other in performance.
 
I didn't audition ADS/1 which is told to be much better than ADS/0. 
Posted on: 02 April 2012 by davea
Originally Posted by bhaagensen:
Hi, if you don't mind - how exactly is this done? I suppose it requires an appropriate cable of some sort - from the IR-out on the TP into the RC5 socket, or? 
 
Originally Posted by davea:

Well in experimenting this weekend I have just discovered you can even use the TP to control the Naim preamp volume.   I can't believe it! ive had the TP for years and not realied you can use the RC5 out socke to do that!

Yes, you need a simple 3mm jack to jack lead.

Then you enable IR blaster plugin in the SqueezeCentre ( settings -> plugins tab)

That gives you another two pages of settings under the Transporter Player.

You then go to IR learning wizard and create commands for volUp and VolDown;  it learns these by pressing buttons on the Naim Remote.

You then apply these commands on the IR Blaster settings page.

Finally set the TP to 100% fixed volume ( probably already done if you are using DAC and/or preamp)

 

Sounds complicated but it took me about 5mins.

Posted on: 02 April 2012 by Geoff P
Originally Posted by AMA:
keilic, I like KDS more than nDAC/555PS with any transports (including USB input, UnityServe, PC/HiFace, Transporter etc.). The only SQ mark where Naim wins over KDS is weightier and more articulated bass and sharper transients in miss -- the difference is rather subtle.
But these features do rock and some people may like it.
I find KDS to be more natural and closer to classic/jazz live performance which I listen a lot.
KDS is also closer to the sonic signature of my LP12.
 
I value both KDS and nDAC/555PS higher than ADS/0 and bare TP -- which are both very thin and actually close to each other in performance.
 
I didn't audition ADS/1 which is told to be much better than ADS/0. 

AMA

Running the KDS/1 on my 552/500 into the Kharma's I have the deepest and best resolved / defined bass I have ever heard. Significantly better rendition than I ever got from my CDS3/555PS. It is one of the things that impressed me first about the KDS/1. That and the speed of it. It doesn't labour like some deep bass portrayals do. I reckon everything thats in the music is coming thru'.

 

If you reckon you get even more bass with the nDAC/555PS I am surprised and wonder wether it maybe overblown.

 

regards

Geoff

Posted on: 02 April 2012 by AMA
Geoff, I'm puzzled -- but I do report what I hear in my system. nDAC/555PS bass is clearly weightier and more punchy than KDS (with the same ICs in test).In the past I tried KDS/0 with Dynamic and despite the impressive analogueness I could not tolerate it's very polite and thin presentation -- typical linn. But KDS/1 was a huge setup towards the conventional Naim area -- more energetic sound, sharper transients, bigger dynamics and weightier bass -- bass is just a tad behind nDAC/555PS. My speakers go very low -- down to 20 Hz and the Naim bass weight in this area is easy audible and superior to KDS/1. But it's not day and night for sure. If you still have 555PS you can grab nDAC from a local dealer for home audition and see how it goes against kds. You can use USB drive to feed nDAC in demo. Easy.
 
Possibly, you can not extend your experience with CDS3/555PS bass to nDAC/555PS.
I'd really like to check NDS/555PS against KDS/1 when it will be available in Dubai...
Posted on: 02 April 2012 by Geoff P

AMA

 

Don't have the 555Ps anymore so I can't organise a comparison at home and that is the only one worth doing. For the same reason I won't bother to test the NDS/555PS since I would have to buy the whole thing now. I will wait for you to try it and report.

 

I am very happy with the bass I get from the KDS/1, it suits my room which has a node at around 33Hz so does reinforce a lot of the deep bass as it is. More bass might actually be too much for me.

 

Geoff

 

Posted on: 02 April 2012 by AMA
Geoff, you know I sometimes feel that turbo-power for the low gain output stage in digital sources is not "the must" anymore.  Possibly the same holds true for preamps. I surely don't miss the bass with KDS and it will take a direct A/B test and thorough analysis to hear the small advantage of nDAC/555PS on bass-heavy tracks. To be precise -- the weightier bass on Naim shows up at a very low frequencies. This is possibly not a reinforcement at mid bass but it goes lower and more articulated than kds.
I believe this is not a limitation for linn designs and linn will possibly improve on this in the next models. The step up from kds/0 to kds/1 was impressive -- particularly in bass weight/articulation.
 
Anyway Linn does it right in general -- especially with DSM range.
 
I still can't see how the SMPS can possibly swipe the current to power amps -- so we are still doomed to big boxes to drive speakers at realistic SPL. 
Posted on: 03 April 2012 by Fred Mulder
Originally Posted by AMA:
Anyway Linn does it right in general -- especially with DSM range.

Hi AMA,

 

When you listened at the Akurate DSM, I'm most interested in your findings.

 

Cheers, Fred 

Posted on: 03 April 2012 by glevethan
Originally Posted by AMA:
tried KDS/0 with Dynamic and despite the impressive analogueness I could not tolerate it's very polite and thin presentation -- typical linn. But KDS/1 was a huge setup towards the conventional Naim area -- more energetic sound, sharper transients, bigger dynamics and weightier bass .

Arthur

You are spot on with your comments about the original KDS/0 vs. KDS/1.  I have heard the original many times since its debut in 2007 and, while always EXTREMELY impressed, I could understand some peoples complaints that it was a bit polite and boring.

 

The new version is a completely different animal and, as mentioned above by Geoff, does have the deepest and most resolved bass I have heard compared to any Naim CD player (including my former CD555).  Quite honestly I would not want any more bass.

 

It truly seems as if the unit was voiced by an ex Naim engineer (especially when compared to the voicing of the original KDS).

 

Gregg

Posted on: 08 April 2012 by Cjones
 
 
 
Originally Posted by davea:

Hi,

     I've used slim devices transporter for a few years as streaming source.   I like the functionality and it sounds great through Naim dac but I would still like to revert to a naim streamer if poss.

 

    I have been trying the ND5XS -   sound is fine but there seems to be a lot of functionality missing (or am I missing something obvious) ...

 

eg

    (1)   Internet radio  -   access to iPlayer / Listen Again shows?

    (2)   Other streaming content, eg Last FM

    (3)   Station Search -  horrible web app only

    (4)   Play random album selection -  Ive been spoilt by the random album play function on SqueezeboxServer, cant make a selection on my own any more ;-)

    (5)   Control from desktop and iTunes integration

I cannot decode this thread with all the acronyms, etc.  I was contemplating a Transporter or a modified Touch.   My issue is that I need to install software on the NAS, for the Transporter to access my NAS, which I fear will interfere with my Naimnet NS01.  So, I was thinking of getting a ND5xs (or unity ssd)  for primary listening.  I only use the digital out, into a Meridian 861 v4.  My question is on sound quality.  Ignoring the software, what do you think of the ND5xs?