Professor Dawkins doesn’t seem to know much about Darwin

Posted by: JWM on 18 April 2012

Professor Dawkins doesn’t seem to know much about Darwin: either what his masterpiece is actually called, or even what he believed about God (he wasn’t an atheist) 

 

There is, Darwin said, an ‘impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe … as the result of blind chance or necessity…. I deserve to be called a Theist’

 

By William Oddie www.catholicherald.co.uk on Wednesday, 18 April 2012

Dawkins: not as much of an expert on Charles Darwin as he thinks

Dawkins: not as much of an expert on Charles Darwin as he thinks

 

Professor Dawkins has been making something of a fool of himself lately (I tried to find a more charitable way of putting it, but I fear I have failed) over his knowledge of the works and opinions of Charles Darwin, of whom he is so well-known as being supposedly the great high priest, or vicarious presence in our own times. That indispensable website, Protect the Pope, draws our attention to one occasion on which this was embarrassingly revealed, which I had previously missed, and which occurred during a recent debate in Australia between Dawkins and Cardinal Pell.

 

Of that, more presently. First, though, that wonderful moment of revelation, when we all discovered that Dawkins couldn’t even say what the full title of Darwin’s greatest and most quasi-iconic work, On the Origin of Species, actually was. The circumstances were these. The modestly entitled Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (“a clear-thinking oasis”, it calls itself) had commissioned a poll from Ipsos MORI to discover “the extent to which adults recorded as Christian in the 2011 UK Census …  believe, know about, practise and are influenced by Christianity, as well as their reasons for having described themselves as Christian in the Census”. The poll discovered that “when given four books of the Bible to select from and asked which was the first book of the New Testament, only 35 per cent could identify Matthew as the correct answer”. In a discussion with Giles Fraser, former Canon Chancellor of St Paul’s Cathedral, Dawkins said that an “astonishing number [of self-identified Christians] couldn’t name the first book in the New Testament” and that this indicated that they were “not really Christian at all”: this declaration led to the following highly amusing piece of dialogue between Dawkins and Fraser, who quite rightly said that the poll asked “silly little questions” to “trip” people up:

Giles Fraser: Richard, if I said to you what is the full title of ‘The Origin Of Species’, I’m sure you could tell me that.

 

Richard Dawkins: Yes I could

 

Giles Fraser: Go on then.

 

Richard Dawkins: On The Origin Of Species.. Uh. With, Oh God, On The Origin Of Species. There is a subtitle with respect to the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life.

 

Giles Fraser: You’re the high pope of Darwinism… If you asked people who believed in evolution that question and you came back and said 2% got it right, it would be terribly easy for me to go ‘they don’t believe it after all’. It’s just not fair to ask people these questions. They self-identify as Christians and I think you should respect that.

Now the point is, surely, that the full title of Darwin’s work, “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life”, though unwieldy, is highly informative, in that it doesn’t just tell you roughly what the book is about, it summarises its entire argument: know the title and you can tell me what the book says. One would have thought that someone so famous for knowing what the book says would have no difficulty in remembering the title. “Oh, God”, replied Dawkins to Giles Fraser (an interesting turn of phrase under the circumstances); “On The Origin Of Species”, he desperately continued, “There is a subtitle with respect to the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life”. But that just won’t do: it leaves out the most essential part of the title: “by Means of Natural Selection”: how well does he really know the book? Or has it just become for him a source of polemic and ideology, like Das Kapital for Communists, often referred to, never read?

 

On to Professor Dawkins’s next uncomfortable moment, at the hands of Cardinal Pell. This one is, if anything, even more embarrassing, since what it draws our attention to is the undeniable fact that Darwin thought that there was no contradiction whatever between evolution and the existence of God.

The cardinal correctly declared that Darwin was a theist because he “couldn’t believe that the immense cosmos and all the beautiful things in the world came about either by chance or out of necessity”.

 

Dawkins, incredibly, immediately interjected that this was “just not true”. There was applause (and the total collapse of Professor Dawkins) when Cardinal Pell instantly replied: “It’s on page 92 of his autobiography. Go and have a look.”

 

Yes, indeed, it’s certainly worth a look (incidentally, I already knew this passage very well: why didn’t Dawkins?). Here it is; it’s worth reading in full:

Although I did not think much about the existence of a personal God until a considerably later period of my life, I will here give the vague conclusions to which I have been driven. The old argument of design in nature, as given by Paley, which formerly seemed to me so conclusive, fails, now that the law of natural selection has been discovered. We can no longer argue that, for instance, the beautiful hinge of a bivalve shell must have been made by an intelligent being, like the hinge of a door by man. There seems to be no more design in the variability of organic beings and in the action of natural selection, than in the course which the wind blows. Everything in nature is the result of fixed laws. … At the present day the most usual argument for the existence of an intelligent God is drawn from the deep inward conviction and feelings which are experienced by most persons…. This argument would be a valid one if all men of all races had the same inward conviction of the existence of one God; but we know that this is very far from being the case. Therefore I cannot see that such inward convictions and feelings are of any weight as evidence of what really exists. The state of mind which grand scenes formerly excited in me, and which was intimately connected with a belief in God, did not essentially differ from that which is often called the sense of sublimity; and however difficult it may be to explain the genesis of this sense, it can hardly be advanced as an argument for the existence of God, any more than the powerful though vague and similar feelings excited by music….

 

Another source of conviction in the existence of God, connected with the reason and not with the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist.

Darwin goes on to say that though “This conclusion was strong in my mind about the time … when I wrote the Origin of Species”, it subsequently became “weaker”; rather than a “theist”, Darwin became an “agnostic” but never, so far as I can discover, an atheist like Dawkins. Whatever the truth of this, it is certain that at the time he wrote the Origin of Species, he did not believe that there was any contradiction between belief in the origin of species by means of natural selection and the existence of a Creator God who was actually himself involved in the process by which the world came to be so sublimely what it was: he concluded, he said, that there was an “extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity”.

 

That sounds very much to me like an idea of God which is declared by Dawkinsite fundamentalists to be at the very opposite pole to belief in evolution. Well, it’s clearly not: at any rate, Darwin certainly didn’t think so: so back to the drawing board, Dawkins.

 

http://www.catholicherald.co.u...he-wasnt-an-atheist/

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by J.N.

There is a TV programme about Richard Dawkins on BBC4 next Wednesday 25th.

 

John.

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by Consciousmess
Good to see Dawkins has rattled your cage, James! Jon
Posted on: 18 April 2012 by JWM

No, not in the least Jon!

 

Best wishes,

James

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by Don Atkinson

As the Cardinal has said, or at least implied, the existence or non-existence of "God" doesn't depend on trivial answers to trivial questions - on either side.

 

I personally find Dawkins obnoxious, but again that doesn't prove anything.

 

I happen to "believe", probably a bit like Darwin, that our whole existence is difficult to conceive without some First Cause having some sort of an intelligent mind. But i do wonder how and when that First Cause came into being. I put it down as some sort of nebulous "faith"

 

Cheers

 

Don

 

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by Redmires

Something to redress the balance

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/richa...ilitant_atheism.html

 

A thought provoking and amusing lecture.

 

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by Consciousmess
Hi Don, current physicists are working on what Lawrence Kraus has theorised, that the universe came from nothing.... Shutting one's mind of to ongoing scientific endeavours is wrong. With respect, it is blatantly wrong. It's the old chestnut, what material or information is accessible to those who know the answer that I can't access?? If someone claims to know the answer, Greeks would coin the term 'hubris' to describe their nature. As the topic was mocking Dawkins being put on the spot, one must remember Dawkins was and is a great educator. I would even extend that point to say his passion fuelled his publications and whether one claims him to be strident or arrogant I would stick my neck out and suspect they feel threatened especially when the conflict is in the obvious, our mortality ~ not the unfalsifiable claims of the afterlife!! Kind regards, Jon
Posted on: 18 April 2012 by aysil

Dawkins is criticised very often for his reductionist viewpoint. Here are two examples:

From London Review of Books:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html

From Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/howard-jacobson...

 

I am an atheist, but I don't sympathise with Dawkins.

I am a biologist, and my viewpoint on Evolution does not coincide with that of Dawkins.

There are different viewpoints among evolution scientists. Some emphasize the selection of genes according to a model which favours the "optimum". I don't think there is any optimum solution in Nature. Evolution is a very pluralistic process; there are many different solutions to "evolutionary tasks", which can exist side by side in a given ecosystem in a complex system of interactions. I think the most important division among believers as well as among non-believers is between the mindsets of pluralism and totalitarianism.

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by Don Atkinson

Jon

 

Science has its limitations.

 

I have a bloody good understanding of how the universe ticks.I rely (and I am confident I can rely) on our scientific understanding of the universe and our engineering use of that science every day. Aeroplanes don't work by "magic".

 

What I don't have, and what nobody has yet managed to convince me they have, is any concept of how or why it all started or when. Has "something" always existed. Did the "matter" of us emerge from "nothingness". Is there some other concept that we haven't yet grasped. Evolution is just an element in our current understanding of how the universe ticks.

 

I am not shutting my mind. Lots of others are, including Dawkins. Although I will give him credit for wording his bus campaign with the word "probably".

 

Cheers

 

Don

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by Don Atkinson

To avoid the need for web searching, I think his bus campaign slogan was "There's probably no God, so stop worrying. Enjoy yourself" or something very similar.

 

Cheers

 

Don

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by AndyPat

Of course he might just have had a few cans of Carling when he was thinking it up.

 

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by George Fredrik
Originally Posted by Don Atkinson:

To avoid the need for web searching, I think his bus campaign slogan was "There's probably no God, so stop worrying. Enjoy yourself" or something very similar.

 

Cheers

 

Don


Dear Don,

 

Interesting ...

 

"... , Enjoy yourself."

 

If ever there was a flawed philosophy this was it! Christianity teaches many things, including being meek [we all fail in this of course, but it is an aspiration], charity, honesty, love [even of our enemies, though we all fail at this as well], and certainty that if we truly acknowledge out failings then we may be forgiven our failings through the Grace of our Saviour of Jesus Christ, who makes intercessions for us ...

 

I was loaned Dawkins' book, the "God Dellusion,"  and it promted me to see the Holy Father of the Roman Catholic Church - so empty was it of charity, love and fairness - even if I remain rooted in the Church of England, even after that meeting.

 

To enjoy yourself, you need to know spiritual good from evil, and Dr Dawkins does not seem to mention that concept as such, but merely the instantaneous gratification that comes from enjoying one' self rather than enjoying being kind. The point is to look out rather than inwards! But the Dr Dawkins does not see this, of course as a flabby faux liberal of the modern era. 

 

I am inclined to the view that the secularisation of modern society is the biggest single cause of what is wrong with modern society, as respect for others is placed second to enjoying yourself! It is very simple and a spiritual disaster that can yet be the cause of human kind's extinction ....

 

ATB from George  .

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by TomK

The catholic church would be better spending its time in preventing its priests fiddling with children, and then having the pope covering it up, than nit picking with Dawkins. He may be a smug smarmy git but I'd take him over anything out of the Vatican any day.

And why does there have to be a "why" to the universe's existence? Why does something have to have started it? Why does there have to have been anything before the Big Bang? We need to stop looking for answers we can picture or relate to. It's a weird place out there and our thinking is far too limited to handle it. Personally I find the idea of an infinite multiverse where universes explode into existence and die is much easier to accept than there being some sort of omnipotent being who can create everything but can't prevent all the horrors we see every day.

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by winkyincanada
Originally Posted by Don Atkinson:

 

Science has its limitations.

 

Yes it does. However, one of its strengths it that it acknowledges that it does have its limitations. When evidence is presented or observed that disproves an hypothesis, then science will move on to an improved hypothesis.

 

Religion can claim no such pragmatism nor logic. In the case of religion, evidence that disproves or contradicts its blindly held faiths, it is ignored and arbitrarily discredited.

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by rodwsmith

So, your contention is that because Dawkins cannot remember, in a televised interview:

“On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life”

This somehow nullifies the fact that 65% of self-professed UK 'christians' in a survey could not remember that "Matthew" is the first book of the new testament?

 

I'm not sure these is even a viable comparison, let alone that it proves anything.

 

I'm no great fan of Dawkins' particular firebrand atheism, but frankly after reading your diatribe, I've warmed to him. I would contend that the catholic church has done more harm to this world than it has good. The current pope continuing his stance against birth control, especially in Aids-ridden parts of Africa, is in my opinion nothing short of murderous, but at least its in the spirit of the tradition. Mind you, even Ratzinger seems to realise the absurdity of this position ('it may be acceptable to use condoms, but not to prevent conception'), but appears impotent actually to do anything about it. Quite a bizarre scenario for someone who has a direct hotline to god.

 

Could any right thinking person, of any creed, seriously believe that any god would be content with the rubbish that is spouted in its name, and the deeds perpetrated by its followers, in this world? When you have groups of people whose theistic beliefs are so similar as to be anthropologically the same but differing only because of a divergence of communication in history, but who nevertheless think that only their particular version of it has a chance of salvation, to the exclusion of all others. And they were, and occasionally still are, prepared to kill others to prove it. How presumptuous. How arrogant. How banal, stupid, offensive and repulsive that is. And yet it continues.

 

The catholic church needs, to pinch a phrase, to get rid of the plank in its own eye before having a go at the mote in Dawkins'.

Posted on: 18 April 2012 by Consciousmess
Any opinions on Dawkins being reductionist forgets the number one premise of his argument - where is the evidence? And to quote the late and great Christopher Hitchens "Any assertion given without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"... Although I don't want to change the thread topic away from Dawkins. For instance, the church now wants equal time devoted in schools towards intelligent design and evolution. I mean what?!! You think back to when the church had far more power and what happened there. I am sure there is no need for me to remind you of Copernicus or Galileo or Voltaire - let alone the inquisition -and now science strides through with its robust and empirically verifiable findings and the increasingly quashed and imposed humility of the church is corned as numbers in the congregation diminish. And they want equal time in education? Why don't they award equal time, but in cultural classes, leave science to science and most importantly take half the state subsidised funds that go to religion and devote that to awareness of evolution by natural selection. And yes, I do know there are ongoing debates amongst evolutionists but evolution per se is fact - akin to us knowing the world spins round the sun. Many kind regards, Jon
Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Andrew

In my youth I was a card-carrying Christian. I went off to university to study life sciences. Such was my mindset, I was unable to find any incompatibility or incongruity between my investigations into cell biology, genetics, physiology, biochemistry and my trenchant belief in (the protestant) God. No, it was my subsequent decision to study theology (with the intent to pursue a career in the church) that led me to become a thoroughly convinced atheist. For to study the bible and cognate literature in all its forms with an open, enquiring and honest mind must surely lead one to the conclusion that humans have made gods in their own images, have fabricated them for their own consolation, to legitimate institutions, to make sense of a world and universe that are intrinsically devoid of sense and meaning. And I must say, I am so happy and relieved to be an atheist. To be without a god, leaves me more time to wonder at life, to cherish every breath I take, and to enjoy the beauty and wonder of our world. The fact that Darwin was unsure or even wrong about the mechanisms of natural selection does not detract in the least from his wonderful insights into the origin of species. Similarly, Darwin's speculations on religion and a teleology for our existence should not be placed on the same level as his science.

Richard Dawkins has had to lean a long way out of the boat to provoke the smallest of corrections to many people's lazy attitudes and views about religion. But if it were not for him and others like him, the boat would capsize in the other direction and many would drown in a sea of fanatical, merciless faith.

As Bertrand Russell famously noted: "Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so".

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Consciousmess
That was a lovely and eloquent post, Andrew. I shake your hand. Jon
Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Don Atkinson

I think we need to bear in mind that we are discussing a number of quite distinct (but none-the-less related) topics.

 

The origins of the universe, and anything that might exist beyond, both in time or space (or whatever other construct that at present we are unable to imagine.)

 

The existence (or otherwise) of a "Creator" (whatever that might be)

 

The breadth and limitations of "science" and its fantasic usefulness to mankind

 

Religion (note, I have deliberately separated Religion and Creator)

 

I am interested in all four subjects

 

Cheers

 

Don

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Don Atkinson
Originally Posted by winkyincanada:
Originally Posted by Don Atkinson:

 

Science has its limitations.

 

Yes it does. However, one of its strengths it that it acknowledges that it does have its limitations. When evidence is presented or observed that disproves an hypothesis, then science will move on to an improved hypothesis.

 

Religion can claim no such pragmatism nor logic. In the case of religion, evidence that disproves or contradicts its blindly held faiths, it is ignored and arbitrarily discredited.

Well, religion also changes. (not that this proves or disproves the existance of a Creator)

 

For example, none of the church goers that I have spoken to recently, believe that heaven and earth were created approximately 5 to 6 thousand years ago. I can't find anybody who still thinks the Spanish Inquisitions were right and proper. Quite a few people are willing to discuss the meanings of Biblical texts and the words of the Koran and other scriptures. In fact, ISTM that in many aspects of understanding, belief and action, Christianity and other religions have changed a great deal in the last 50 years or so.

 

Cheers

 

Don

 

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Don Atkinson
Originally Posted by TomK:

And why does there have to be a "why" to the universe's existence? Why does something have to have started it? Why does there have to have been anything before the Big Bang? We need to stop looking for answers we can picture or relate to. Personally I find the idea of an infinite multiverse where universes explode into existence and die is much easier to accept than there being some sort of omnipotent being who can create everything but can't prevent all the horrors we see every day.

I think the same argument could be used to justify a "Creator" ie  "It's a weird place out there and our thinking is far too limited to handle it."

 

There might be a God, there might not. Evidence for either point of view might exist, it might not.

 

Cheers

 

Don

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Graham Hull

Why do religious people have to come up with a lot of intellectual non-sense to justify their beliefs? It is all a question of faith, an inner feeling of another being existing that is greater than ourselves. I don't share this but can understand others have a need for this.

 

Organised religion is based on fairy stories that mankind will find amusing in 1,000 years.

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by BigH47
Originally Posted by Graham Hull:

Organised religion is based on fairy stories that mankind will find amusing in 1,000 years.

Oh really? Egyptians had an organised religion for many tens of thousands of years, christians seem to have lasted 2,000 years. 

Do think we will suddenly get more educated ?

Or maybe in a 1000 years light will switch on in every bodies head and christianity, islam, shinto etc etc will suddenly cease to exist?

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Andrew
Originally Posted by BigH47:
Originally Posted by Graham Hull:

Organised religion is based on fairy stories that mankind will find amusing in 1,000 years.

Oh really? Egyptians had an organised religion for many tens of thousands of years, christians seem to have lasted 2,000 years. 

Do think we will suddenly get more educated ?

Or maybe in a 1000 years light will switch on in every bodies head and christianity, islam, shinto etc etc will suddenly cease to exist?

In the "religion versus science" debate it is commonly overlooked that religion was originally, in many ways, the science of its day. Like the Just So stories, Religious myths and rituals are often aetiological in nature, explanations and portrayals of why things are the way they are (and why we should therefore support the status quo). The priest or shaman is the expert, just as scientists are (often) regarded as the high priests of our technological age. Just as many people used to, and still do, swear by religion (as the only right or ultimate explanation for things), so do the majority today swear (equally blindly!) by science as the measure of all things.

It should not be denied that religion has its own logic, its own methodology, no matter how archaic and irrational it may now appear to many.

As for myself, I am an ardent believer in the FSM, and anyone who has experienced the embrace of his noodley appendages will surely feel the same way too.

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by BigH47

May the sauce be with you!

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Derry

Faith requires no proof - no thought required either.