Professor Dawkins doesn’t seem to know much about Darwin

Posted by: JWM on 18 April 2012

Professor Dawkins doesn’t seem to know much about Darwin: either what his masterpiece is actually called, or even what he believed about God (he wasn’t an atheist) 

 

There is, Darwin said, an ‘impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe … as the result of blind chance or necessity…. I deserve to be called a Theist’

 

By William Oddie www.catholicherald.co.uk on Wednesday, 18 April 2012

Dawkins: not as much of an expert on Charles Darwin as he thinks

Dawkins: not as much of an expert on Charles Darwin as he thinks

 

Professor Dawkins has been making something of a fool of himself lately (I tried to find a more charitable way of putting it, but I fear I have failed) over his knowledge of the works and opinions of Charles Darwin, of whom he is so well-known as being supposedly the great high priest, or vicarious presence in our own times. That indispensable website, Protect the Pope, draws our attention to one occasion on which this was embarrassingly revealed, which I had previously missed, and which occurred during a recent debate in Australia between Dawkins and Cardinal Pell.

 

Of that, more presently. First, though, that wonderful moment of revelation, when we all discovered that Dawkins couldn’t even say what the full title of Darwin’s greatest and most quasi-iconic work, On the Origin of Species, actually was. The circumstances were these. The modestly entitled Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (“a clear-thinking oasis”, it calls itself) had commissioned a poll from Ipsos MORI to discover “the extent to which adults recorded as Christian in the 2011 UK Census …  believe, know about, practise and are influenced by Christianity, as well as their reasons for having described themselves as Christian in the Census”. The poll discovered that “when given four books of the Bible to select from and asked which was the first book of the New Testament, only 35 per cent could identify Matthew as the correct answer”. In a discussion with Giles Fraser, former Canon Chancellor of St Paul’s Cathedral, Dawkins said that an “astonishing number [of self-identified Christians] couldn’t name the first book in the New Testament” and that this indicated that they were “not really Christian at all”: this declaration led to the following highly amusing piece of dialogue between Dawkins and Fraser, who quite rightly said that the poll asked “silly little questions” to “trip” people up:

Giles Fraser: Richard, if I said to you what is the full title of ‘The Origin Of Species’, I’m sure you could tell me that.

 

Richard Dawkins: Yes I could

 

Giles Fraser: Go on then.

 

Richard Dawkins: On The Origin Of Species.. Uh. With, Oh God, On The Origin Of Species. There is a subtitle with respect to the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life.

 

Giles Fraser: You’re the high pope of Darwinism… If you asked people who believed in evolution that question and you came back and said 2% got it right, it would be terribly easy for me to go ‘they don’t believe it after all’. It’s just not fair to ask people these questions. They self-identify as Christians and I think you should respect that.

Now the point is, surely, that the full title of Darwin’s work, “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life”, though unwieldy, is highly informative, in that it doesn’t just tell you roughly what the book is about, it summarises its entire argument: know the title and you can tell me what the book says. One would have thought that someone so famous for knowing what the book says would have no difficulty in remembering the title. “Oh, God”, replied Dawkins to Giles Fraser (an interesting turn of phrase under the circumstances); “On The Origin Of Species”, he desperately continued, “There is a subtitle with respect to the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life”. But that just won’t do: it leaves out the most essential part of the title: “by Means of Natural Selection”: how well does he really know the book? Or has it just become for him a source of polemic and ideology, like Das Kapital for Communists, often referred to, never read?

 

On to Professor Dawkins’s next uncomfortable moment, at the hands of Cardinal Pell. This one is, if anything, even more embarrassing, since what it draws our attention to is the undeniable fact that Darwin thought that there was no contradiction whatever between evolution and the existence of God.

The cardinal correctly declared that Darwin was a theist because he “couldn’t believe that the immense cosmos and all the beautiful things in the world came about either by chance or out of necessity”.

 

Dawkins, incredibly, immediately interjected that this was “just not true”. There was applause (and the total collapse of Professor Dawkins) when Cardinal Pell instantly replied: “It’s on page 92 of his autobiography. Go and have a look.”

 

Yes, indeed, it’s certainly worth a look (incidentally, I already knew this passage very well: why didn’t Dawkins?). Here it is; it’s worth reading in full:

Although I did not think much about the existence of a personal God until a considerably later period of my life, I will here give the vague conclusions to which I have been driven. The old argument of design in nature, as given by Paley, which formerly seemed to me so conclusive, fails, now that the law of natural selection has been discovered. We can no longer argue that, for instance, the beautiful hinge of a bivalve shell must have been made by an intelligent being, like the hinge of a door by man. There seems to be no more design in the variability of organic beings and in the action of natural selection, than in the course which the wind blows. Everything in nature is the result of fixed laws. … At the present day the most usual argument for the existence of an intelligent God is drawn from the deep inward conviction and feelings which are experienced by most persons…. This argument would be a valid one if all men of all races had the same inward conviction of the existence of one God; but we know that this is very far from being the case. Therefore I cannot see that such inward convictions and feelings are of any weight as evidence of what really exists. The state of mind which grand scenes formerly excited in me, and which was intimately connected with a belief in God, did not essentially differ from that which is often called the sense of sublimity; and however difficult it may be to explain the genesis of this sense, it can hardly be advanced as an argument for the existence of God, any more than the powerful though vague and similar feelings excited by music….

 

Another source of conviction in the existence of God, connected with the reason and not with the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist.

Darwin goes on to say that though “This conclusion was strong in my mind about the time … when I wrote the Origin of Species”, it subsequently became “weaker”; rather than a “theist”, Darwin became an “agnostic” but never, so far as I can discover, an atheist like Dawkins. Whatever the truth of this, it is certain that at the time he wrote the Origin of Species, he did not believe that there was any contradiction between belief in the origin of species by means of natural selection and the existence of a Creator God who was actually himself involved in the process by which the world came to be so sublimely what it was: he concluded, he said, that there was an “extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity”.

 

That sounds very much to me like an idea of God which is declared by Dawkinsite fundamentalists to be at the very opposite pole to belief in evolution. Well, it’s clearly not: at any rate, Darwin certainly didn’t think so: so back to the drawing board, Dawkins.

 

http://www.catholicherald.co.u...he-wasnt-an-atheist/

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Consciousmess
And not just that, why do theists even begin to cite reasons for their beliefs to be correct? What I mean is there is no verifiable scientific evidence and so what can be claimed is entirely anecdotal and subjective. So noting that point and then observing any citation of evidence leaves one to question whether faith exists in that person. There would be no room for faith if this pseudo evidence is taken. They have unintentionally disproved themselves when one notes again that there is no verifiable scientific evidence apart from subjective experience and anecdotes!! Jon
Posted on: 19 April 2012 by Don Atkinson

Jon

 

Two hundred years ago, there was no evidence to indicate that the speed of light couldn't be ecceeded.

 

No evidence isn't exactly proof that something doesn't exist. It might, it might not.

 

Who knows what science will reveal next year.

 

Cheers

 

Don

Posted on: 19 April 2012 by TomK

You're right Don. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Posted on: 20 April 2012 by Consciousmess
And therefore humility must always endure. Scientists are conscious of Type 1 and Type 2 errors and submit their own work for peer review. To quote Sam Harris, science is Intellectual honesty. I know as in all fields there is corruption, but science per se is humble and the scientific method weeds out corruption, so anyone claiming anything beyond what is verifiably known should be treated with suspicion. Jon
Posted on: 21 April 2012 by Consciousmess
And not taking the discussion off James' topic - noting our divided opinions (!) - this great scientist has a programme devoted to him on BBC4 on Wed at 9 focused on his gene focussed view of evolution. Enjoy! Jon
Posted on: 21 April 2012 by AndyPat

Fantastic, another theology programme . Can't get enough of this new fangled science-as-a-religion stuff. If he would only throw in a bit of philosophy I could cut straight through to 'The meaning of life?'. Will the answer be subjective, or objective?

 

Thank God for Naim. Now what to listen to while I'm reading up on some proper genetics.............?

 

 

Andy

Posted on: 21 April 2012 by Sniper

For an impressive demolition of Dawkins and other frauds from the world of science (and without using any Biblical nonsense) one could do worse than read The Grand Designer by Graham Smetham 

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/...7-the-grand-designer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 21 April 2012 by BigH47

Does use that god nonsense though?

Posted on: 21 April 2012 by Sniper

Not really, no. Certainly not the God of the Bible or any other God that might readily spring to mind. 

Posted on: 21 April 2012 by AndyPat

Thanks for the tip Sniper, might just look that one out.

 

May the Force be with you!

Posted on: 26 April 2012 by J.N.
Originally Posted by Consciousmess:
And not taking the discussion off James' topic - noting our divided opinions (!) - this great scientist has a programme devoted to him on BBC4 on Wed at 9 focused on his gene focussed view of evolution. Enjoy! Jon

Yes indeed Jon - Good programme.

 

Prof Dawkins comes across as an intelligent and honourable man to me, though not everyone will agree with him of course.

 

And then there's the Catholic Church who decided to have a pop at him. Something about glasshouses and stones? It's difficult to know where my loathing starts for this 'organisation'.

 

John.

Posted on: 26 April 2012 by Andrew
Originally Posted by Sniper:

For an impressive demolition of Dawkins and other frauds from the world of science (and without using any Biblical nonsense) one could do worse than read The Grand Designer by Graham Smetham 

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/...7-the-grand-designer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fraud you say?  In what sense is Dawkins out to intentionally deceive or harm us? It seems to me he does his level best to lay his cards on the table. Nothing up his sleeves I'd say, just a few uncomfortable facts and his (for many readers less than palatable) interpretations. There's no snake oil on sale from his web site, at least not the last time I looked.

I have not read the book you mention although I'm sure one could do worse than Smetham's Grand Designer. However, I wager that If one took Occam's razor and applied it to this book, there would not be much left between the dust covers ...

Posted on: 26 April 2012 by JamieL_v2

I keep wanting to reply to this thread, but then think that both sides are entrenched. I have strong opinions on one side of this argument, but each time I start to write a reply, I think that it is not why I come to the Naim forum.

 

Another forum I use bans the discussion of politics and religion as they only polarise views.

Although I like the forum, perhaps I should stay in the sections that interest me more.

Posted on: 26 April 2012 by Andrew

I too was somewhat suprised that a thread like this could be tossed into the Naim forum, and as you say Jamie, people are free to follow it or ignore it. I know exactly what you means about being tempted to write something and then just thinking, why risk a flaming. On the other hand, I think this thread has provided ample evidence of the generally high level of mutual respect accorded to forum members even whilst disagreeing among themselves. I just don't like to stand on the sidelines when only one side of an argument is presented or when blatant half-truths or untruths are bandied around as if they were "gospel".

Maybe we should start a new thread about religiously-inspired music. I'm a real cry baby when I listen to Byrd, Palestrina or Tallis and I don't think my atheist stance impedes me in the slightest from relishing such sublime music... 

Posted on: 26 April 2012 by JamieL_v2

Andrew, I know what you mean about music and the views that inspire it. There are a few grossly sexist songs I love as they are great rock, but are from a time when such lyrical content was acceptable.

 

Perhaps if Tallis were alive and writing today he may may be writing music about the theories of Einstein or Darwin.

 

I did post a thread in the Music Room on music which represents view alien to ones own a little while ago.

Posted on: 26 April 2012 by Don Atkinson

Andrew, Jamie,

 

The Padded Cell is "padded" for good reason. People do, from time to time, express very strong views and occasionally have a pop at contibutors with opposing views. Generally however, its a lot more docile than it used to be.

 

You might be surprised at how many people share some aspect of you own views, and if they don't ?...........well, not everybody agrees with Cammeron here in the UK, but that doesn't seem to bother him !

 

Cheers

 

Don

Posted on: 26 April 2012 by Andrew

It's not the heretics we should be concerned about, it's the hypocrites. It's stimulating and  challenging to exchange ideas with people championing different opinions, if those exchanges remain respectful and serious. This forum would be poorer without such personalities. I feel encouraged to give my pennyworth when someone, such as the bishop quoted at the beginning of this thread, has no interest in exploring the truth, but rather, hypocritically, deliberately, sets out to obscure the truth by attempting to discredit others. Everyone can have a bad day and maybe Richard Dawkins didn't shine during that interview, but then neither did that hypocrite bishop.

Posted on: 26 April 2012 by JamieL_v2

Don, you are quite right about this being a place where people can express strong views.

I do stand by my personal viewpoint that the start of this topic is most definitely not something I wish to be involved with, and were the forum to start to have more of the kind of views expressed at the start here I would simply leave.

 

I guess that is my choice, should it come to that, mostly I just stick to the music room these days, but that is a shadow of what it was a couple of years ago, but that is due to quite a different reason.

Posted on: 27 April 2012 by Consciousmess

Well said, Don and Jamie.

 

Personally as long as respect is still present, I think the 'padded cell' should be the place to put across one's views however strong they are.  I can think of some individuals on this forum who I suspect are very firm in their beliefs and would put myself amongst them.  The only corollary I would add to this is that in my case I would reword 'belief' with 'opinion' as I try as I can to stick with evidence and rational logic.

 

Feeding off Dawkins, I think everyone should be able to criticise religion just as they can criticise politics, football or taste in art.

 

Warm regards and respect.

 

Jon

 

PS I also think whether one is strong in one's views or not, it takes more than one hand to clap and that refines one's pre-existing argument.  A bit like a teacher/professor getting better every year.